Change to inherent (shared Buffs/reverse debuffs)
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-12-10 20:43 in Defenders
There's a few problems with this. First off I'm not sure if there's a way that the devs could make powers that function as either an ally buff or a self buff depending on target. This is an implementation problem and I'm sure the devs could solve it if they really wanted to.
The main problem as I see it is that this is not something that could be evenly applied across all sets. If you look at the inherent powers they are all something that works the same no matter what power sets you are using. A good example would be Defiance, it applies a different buff for each power but the duration and magnitude follows a set formula and is based purely on the activation time and AoE of the power. For this the devs would need to individually balance the buffs for every single power that meets the requirements. Additionally every set has a different number of powers that would qualify (between 1 and 6) so the benefit would vary hugely between powersets in a way that doesn't necessarily reflect the overall capability of that set. This would make it very difficult for the devs to use a similar formula based approach.
My biggest complaint regarding solo defenders has always been the fact that different primary sets have quite varied ability to solo at lower levels. This disparity begins to close ranks as you level up, but never "truely" disappears.
For me at least, the issue with our "inherent" and our "solo strength" are two seperate issues, but they tend to be mentioned together alot since our "inherent" ability does nothing for us while solo (unlike every other Hero-side AT).
My hope is that the Developers will modify our Inherent ability to include some kind of effect while solo AND that they review all defender primaries with an "eye" towards their solo effectiveness.
P.S. I have to give a "nod" to our Tanker friends, as their inherent does do "something" if they care to use it solo, just not anything to write home about.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
It's hard to think of an inherent they could give Defenders that would be uniformly useful to a bunch of power sets that are as completely non-uniform as Defender primaries. Buffs, debuffs, heals, controls, even pets and damage dealing are found in these sets. For a Defender inherent to be anything like uniformly useful, it would have to hit secondaries rather than primaries, since Defender secondaries all serve the same basic purpose - dealing damage.
I suppose it could be a Power Build Up type effect that improves everything. Build it up like Domination, only with blasts instead of controls, and then activate it to improve, well, pretty much everything in the primary. Heals heal more, controls control more, buffs buff more, etc. That's what I'd focus on if I was gonna design a new Defender inherent. At least, that's the approach I'd take if I was doing it right now. Ask me tomorrow and you might get a different answer.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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I agree 100%. Just look at Tankers, their inherent operates, for the most part, off their attacks. And actually, when you look at Blasters, Scrappers and Controllers, their main Inherent effects operate off "attacks" as well. The fact that most of these ATs also work off their "Primary" powerset is clearly the intent, but not the "rule" for Inherent abilities.
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Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
It's hard to think of an inherent they could give Defenders that would be uniformly useful to a bunch of power sets that are as completely non-uniform as Defender primaries. Buffs, debuffs, heals, controls, even pets and damage dealing are found in these sets. For a Defender inherent to be anything like uniformly useful, it would have to hit secondaries rather than primaries, since Defender secondaries all serve the same basic purpose - dealing damage.
I suppose it could be a Power Build Up type effect that improves everything. Build it up like Domination, only with blasts instead of controls, and then activate it to improve, well, pretty much everything in the primary. Heals heal more, controls control more, buffs buff more, etc. That's what I'd focus on if I was gonna design a new Defender inherent. At least, that's the approach I'd take if I was doing it right now. Ask me tomorrow and you might get a different answer. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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An approach like mine, or really anything involving the secondary, would also be a very clear indicator that Defender secondaries are intended to be used. Still get occasional idiots trying to argue that point, more ammo against them is always welcome.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I agree 100%. Just look at Tankers, their inherent operates, for the most part, off their attacks. And actually, when you look at Blasters, Scrappers and Controllers, their main Inherent effects operate off "attacks" as well. The fact that most of these ATs also work off their "Primary" powerset is clearly the intent, but not the "rule" for Inherent abilities.
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TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Unless the change was something like "Defender damage increases for every other team member" they'd still argue it |
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
An approach like mine, or really anything involving the secondary, would also be a very clear indicator that Defender secondaries are intended to be used. Still get occasional idiots trying to argue that point, more ammo against them is always welcome.
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. But yeah I think a secondary based inherent would be easier to balance.
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You mentioned tankers later, but there's also Kheldians.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
For me at least, the issue with our "inherent" and our "solo strength" are two seperate issues, but they tend to be mentioned together alot since our "inherent" ability does nothing for us while solo (unlike every other Hero-side AT).
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Can't say I can get behind this one.
But I think I'm to settled in on what I would do to change it (and imo it does need to be changed).
My thought for it's change...
Vigilance: Toggles don't drop/suppress when mezzed.
This would be useful both teamed and solo.
Yeah, you couldn't attack when mezed. You couldn't lay down new toggles either, if currently mezzed.
HOWEVER!
If you already have your armor toggled on, or your toggle debuff going, and get mezzed, it's still going, and working to keep you (and your team) protected 
Will some sets get more use of this inherent? Yes. After all TA doesn't have any toggle debuffs/buffs, but the defender could make use of power pool/epic pool, toggle buffs/self buffs, that won't drop.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Do you mean the toggles wouldn't suppress?
The only problem with the inherent being based off the secondary is that, unlike a tank, you have use your primary less in order to get the most out of it.
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I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Tankers have toggles in their Primary, Defenders have toggles in their Primary. Tankers have click powers in their Primary, Defenders have click powers in their Primary. The point you could make is that Defenders AS A WHOLE have more click powers compared to toggles than Tankers do, and their click powers do not last as long. However, this isn't always the case, Force Field Defenders rely heavily on toggle powers, and have click buffs that have an relatively long duration. |
Originally Posted by Taiyetos
The only problem with the inherent being based off the secondary is that, unlike a tank, you have use your primary less in order to get the most out of it.
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Your argument would also seem to apply to Corruptors and Masterminds as well. It would seem that if a Defender did not have the time to use both his Primary and blasts as well, then a Corruptor would not have time to use his Secondary with all of his blasts. And a Mastermind would be unable to use his Secondary if he devoted time to controlling his henchmen. Since this isn't the case, I would say that a Defender has plenty of time to use his Secondary, in between applications of his Primary powers.
And if a Defender's Inherent were raised by use of his Primary click powers as well as his attacks, in much the same way a Dominator can raise his Inherent with either Primary or Secondary click powers, I'd say there would be no need for any argument at all. (The Secondary can provide more of a boost to the Inherent, again, as with Dominators, but at least more active Defenders would not have to sacrifice Inherent to protect their team)
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Khelds are in a similar boat don't forget.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
My biggest complaint regarding solo defenders has always been the fact that different primary sets have quite varied ability to solo at lower levels. This disparity begins to close ranks as you level up, but never "truely" disappears.
For me at least, the issue with our "inherent" and our "solo strength" are two seperate issues, but they tend to be mentioned together alot since our "inherent" ability does nothing for us while solo (unlike every other Hero-side AT). My hope is that the Developers will modify our Inherent ability to include some kind of effect while solo AND that they review all defender primaries with an "eye" towards their solo effectiveness. P.S. I have to give a "nod" to our Tanker friends, as their inherent does do "something" if they care to use it solo, just not anything to write home about. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
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-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Yeah, sorry about that. Its not that I ignored them, its just that I have only played around a little with Kheldians and I was not very impressed. So I tend to stick to just the original 5 Hero ATs and can really only refer to those with any kind of real knowledge.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Khelds are in a similar boat don't forget.
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Since the defender inherent is the one I am most interested in seeing fixed, that is another reason for my bias about not restricting the inherent to base off of our primary. All the suggestions I have seen or have thought of myself dont seem to apply equally to all primaries. That doesnt mean, of course that a unique solution is not out there.
I just think that having some effect based off the attacks would be easier to implement, more balanced across all possible primaries and definitely a help to a solo defender.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Originally Posted by Taiyetos
The only problem with the inherent being based off the secondary is that, unlike a tank, you have use your primary less in order to get the most out of it.
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This is a very good point. Not much to say other than balancing an inherent off the primaries seems more difficult to accomplish (if you are assuming a click-sensitive type of effect), because every defender primary is different in its application.
My empath is very active on a team (as far as primaries), but not so much solo, where his blasts take center stage. Other Primaries would be more active solo than my Empath, but considerably less so on a team.
Perhaps this is the reason that they based it solely off team-mates. If that still remains the best way to accomplish their desired effect, then just make my Health count towards the endurance savings in a very real way. I would be happy with that. Give me solo what I get on a team.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Exactly what I'm saying.|
Originally Posted by Garent
Do you mean the toggles wouldn't suppress?
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Currently if a defender get's mezzed...the defensive toggles like Dispersion Bubble remain toggled, but the effects are suppressed.
If a Dark Miasma Defender lays down a Darkest Night, then gets mezzed, the toggle drops completely.
My suggestion...for Defenders inherent...none of that happens for their toggles.
They're toggles are ALWAYS working, even when mezzed.
Kinda like how Blasters can use their Tier 1's and the Tier 2 from their Primary when mezzed.
Except for a Defender, it would just be toggles.
They wouldn't beable to attack. They wouldn't be able to put up new toggles (or maybe allow them? But I'm okay with this being a no). They'd just beable to keep the current toggles going, both offensive and defensive, with no suppression/loss of effect.
I don't see how this wouldn't benefit all defenders solo/teamed.
Yeah, for one's like TA, they wouldn't get as much out of it on their primary, but they'd see use for it in pool powers/epic shields if they decided to take them.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Well, my main defender would get zero benefit from it.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't see how this wouldn't benefit all defenders solo/teamed. |
I will say that its an interesting idea that fits with the "spirit" of Vigilance, but it would only benefit Rad and Dark in a "Big" way. Everyone else will get little or no benefit from it.
hmmm, unless your also saying that while mezzed, my Charged Armor, Tactics, Maneuvers, and Combat Jumping would still be protecting myself and my team. That might be interesting. Probably would cause defenders to go more toggle-heavy than they already are, which would be nice if we could get some endurance reduction somewhere in the inherent too. Hehe, oh wait....
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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That's exactly what I'm saying. |
Originally Posted by Biospark
Well, my main defender would get zero benefit from it.
I will say that its an interesting idea that fits with the "spirit" of Vigilance, but it would only benefit Rad and Dark in a "Big" way. Everyone else will get little or no benefit from it. hmmm, unless your also saying that while mezzed, my Charged Armor, Tactics, Maneuvers, and Combat Jumping would still be protecting myself and my team. That might be interesting. Probably would cause defenders to go more toggle-heavy than they already are, which would be nice if we could get some endurance reduction somewhere in the inherent too. Hehe, oh wait.... |
Combat Jumping/Leadership Toggles/Epic Armors, they all stay active and at full effectiveness as well as the toggle debuffs (ie...Darkest Night, Hurricane, Disruption Field...ect...ect).
Yes, some sets would see more use of it, but I think all Defenders would see positive use of this type of inherent, if they take their epic shields at the very least.
For some it might not seem as major, but they'd all beable to make very good use of the inherent if it was changed to such a way.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I've said this before but I think each Defender on the team should increase the effectiveness of inspirations. You'd get the most bang for the first Defender, with diminishing returns for each additional one. A lone Defender would keep the bonus solo.
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Since this would require the powers themselves to be messed with, it wouldn't be possible for pool powers to do this. It would also have the consequence of having your toggle buffs affect your teammates even if they're mezzed. As it works right now, you lose the benefit of other people's steamy mist and shadowfall if you're mezzed, under this system you'd keep the buff if that person was a defender.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
My suggestion...for Defenders inherent...none of that happens for their toggles.
They're toggles are ALWAYS working, even when mezzed. |
best change in the inherent would be a perception bonus per person in your team.
thereby allowing defenders to stop sucking in pvp.
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Quite true, however, Kheldians do quite well solo. They have far higher base damage than Defenders, and have built in survival tools on par with Stalkers, if not Scrappers overall. I consider their Inherent Travel Powers their solo Inherent, and the Links the teaming inherent.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Khelds are in a similar boat don't forget.
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I still hold by my pre-inherents-for-all position, Defenders should have an inherent that is primarily based on the Blast sets. If possible it should improve the Defender's team support role, and help while solo.
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Defenders already easily hit the perception cap, and they don't suck in pvp.
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Originally Posted by black_barrier
best change in the inherent would be a perception bonus per person in your team.
thereby allowing defenders to stop sucking in pvp. |
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actually they do suck.|
Originally Posted by Garent
Defenders already easily hit the perception cap, and they don't suck in pvp.
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and a defender has to sacrifice phase in order have a build with perception and the pools required in pvp: fitness + sj + ss.
there is nothing a defender can do that a troller or corruptor can't do better at this point.
i13 was so awesome.
REQUIRED huh? The last pvp tournament I participated in was a 3v3 and our team was a blaster, controller, and me as the defender. None of us had phase shift or hibernate, blaster had both SJ and SS, controller and I only had SS. We won every match, and had a total of three deaths.
This was an idea I was tossing about to freshen up the defender. The main idea is that the single target ally-only buffs/heals and single target debuffs provide a smaller temporary buff to the defender.
Now where it gets interesting is the idea of allowing the defender to use single target ally-buffs without a target to get a small, watered down bonus of some sort.
The idea is to give the defender a little help when they solo, but at the same time try to give a benefit that all of the powerset could give. Each set would have different buffs based on the powers involved, but they'd all have some benefit.
I realize you could create a "Solo build" and a "Team build" but due to the way some of the powersets interact it would be difficult to create an effective solo build.
Just throwing the idea out, see if anyone likes it.
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