I can't say I particularly want it (forcefields bore the crap out of me, and I don't play a lot of villains), but I certainly have nothing against it. I want ALL the sets proliferated to ALL the ATs for which they make sense, and sooner rather than later.
I agree.
Hmmm, that was a bit short. Ummm.... yeah.
The topic has come up before on why Corruptors don't have Force Fields. You'll actually find that it's part of the game design on how Corruptor and Mastermind secondaries were originally developed.
Take a look at this thread : http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=197785
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ClawsandEffect followed that up by noting:|
In CoH you have one strong debuff / buff type, the defender, and one weak type, the controller. In CoV there isn't actually a strong debuff / buff type. The buff / debuffs on Corruptors and Masterminds are secondary sets. Going through and looking at the sets that were originally available that were common across both, you'd find that Corruptors were mostly using the Controller secondary values for their buffs / debuffs, say like on Radiation Emission, and that Masterminds generally had even weaker values, say comparing Dark Miasma to the Corruptor and Defender variants. Because of these design limitations almost all of the Corruptor sets contained enemy debuffs. Thermal Radiation, the original answer to empath for example, got Melt Armor and Heat Exhaustion in addition to it's mix of player resist buffs and strong heals. When Pain Domination was introduced as an inverse empath set, it also got an enemy debuff, Anguishing Cry. From a design standpoint, only one Corruptor set actually lacks a -resist debuff and -defense debuff, which is the Kinetics Set. However, the Kin still functions as a strong buff / debuff type as a kin can kill endurance and regeneration values. |
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Also partially explains why Masterminds haven't gotten Kinetics either. If you look at MM secondaries, they have a common theme of all being able to do something to protect your pets. Kinetics does very little in the way of protecting. The heal, for example, is based around being within melee range, or close to it, of an enemy. There aren't many MM pets that prefer melee range enough for it to be useful. Forcefield, Pain Dom, and Thermal all directly protect your pets through buffing them. Dark Miasma, Storm, and to a lesser extent, Traps protect them through debuffing the enemy. Kinetics' main strength is increasing damage output, and since pets are now unaffected by recharge boosts, Speed Boost does very little for them, leaving Increase Density as the only actual buff in the set. Also, my aforementioned point of not many pets liking melee would mean that even Fulcrum Shift wouldn't be that useful, since it would miss half your pets. |
From a development point then, for Force Field to meet the needs of the corruptor archtype it would need to be modified to contain a proper enemy debuff.
Granted, I think Force Field needs to be reworked period. It's not really that versatile of a set, and the whole two knockback / knockdown large bubbles is a bit... Jack'ed up. (If you know what I mean).
However, with the developers cottage rule, they won't go in and outright change out the existing powers on the existing Force Field avatars. They'd also run into the very serious problem that they caused with Electric Armor. Electric Armor on Scrappers / Tanks is heads and shoulders above the Eletric Armor on Stalkers / Brutes due to Energize, and I seem to recall a significant amount of forum backlash over the changes not getting ported back to Stalkers / Brutes. I am directly aware of a large in-game backlash across Supergroups, Coalitions, and various global channels with many players repeatedly comparing their Hero Electric to their Villain Electric and unable to get over just how good the Hero version is in a comparative manner.
I foresee a similar backlash if the developers were to rework Force Field for the needs of corruptors and not port those changes back to existing Force Field users, and an equally large backlash if the developers DID backport any improvements. It's my opinion then that the developers are probably content to keep cans of worms like this closed as much as possible.
I think forcefield is ok for corruptors. To fit the evil theme on the red-side, I think it's ok if the power set has an offensive component. The offensive components do not need to be a debuff. Forcefield has knockbacks, force bubble for example which can attack mobs.
In my opinion, it's ok even if a villain power set doesn't have an offensive componet as long as it's not something full of love like empathy. New power sets usually have various abilities including buffs, debuffs and heals because players like to be more multi-dimensional and hence more varieties during game play. Strong buff power sets like forcefield are considered a one-trick pony and a bit boring. Some villain power sets are relatively new, therefore they tend to have various things like debuffs. I'm not sure if it is a must to have debuffs in order to be qualified as a corruptor power set.
For potential improvements of the forcefield during proliferation, I think it's fine as it is. It can use some tweaks. And you can already see how cottage rule works through energize. Basically, the essense of a power is kept, changes are simply adding some flavor on top. For forcefield, the knockbacks that people complain about will most likely be there no matter what. I don't expect powers to be replaced by something radically different in nature. I think brutes and stalkers get energize as well, I don't see porting changes back is an issue, unless the dev decide to make a new evil forcefield designed specifically for corruptors.
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This sort of misses the point of design. No, Forcefield is not okay for corruptors. I'm not talking about the offensive components, the force bolt or force bomb. Force field lacks any sort of -defense debuff, -resist debuff, -regen debuff, -recovery debuff, which every single other Corruptor set has.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
I think forcefield is ok for corruptors. To fit the evil theme on the red-side, I think it's ok if the power set has an offensive component. The offensive components do not need to be a debuff. Forcefield has knockbacks, force bubble for example which can attack mobs.
In my opinion, it's ok even if a villain power set doesn't have an offensive componet as long as it's not something full of love like empathy. New power sets usually have various abilities including buffs, debuffs and heals because players like to be more multi-dimensional and hence more varieties during game play. Strong buff power sets like forcefield are considered a one-trick pony and a bit boring. |
Again, the only corruptor set that doesn't have -defense / -resist is kinetics, but it's balanced by kinetics having loads of other debuffs. The design was done to make up for the lack of the Villain side having a strong buff / debuff archtype to match the defender.
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| For potential improvements of the forcefield during proliferation, I think it's fine as it is. It can use some tweaks. And you can already see how cottage rule works through energize. Basically, the essense of a power is kept, changes are simply adding some flavor on top. For forcefield, the knockbacks that people complain about will most likely be there no matter what. I don't expect powers to be replaced by something radically different in nature. I think brutes and stalkers get energize as well, I don't see porting changes back is an issue, unless the dev decide to make a new evil forcefield designed specifically for corruptors. |
So yes, porting changes back is a BIG ISSUE for the developers.
And yes, they would Have to Make a new evil forcefield designed for corruptors in order for the forcefield set to fit the observed design elements of the corruptor class.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
They'd also run into the very serious problem that they caused with Electric Armor. Electric Armor on Scrappers / Tanks is heads and shoulders above the Eletric Armor on Stalkers / Brutes due to Energize, and I seem to recall a significant amount of forum backlash over the changes not getting ported back to Stalkers / Brutes. I am directly aware of a large in-game backlash across Supergroups, Coalitions, and various global channels with many players repeatedly comparing their Hero Electric to their Villain Electric and unable to get over just how good the Hero version is in a comparative manner.
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What are you talking about? The brute and stalker version both got energize and it replaced conserve power.
That doesn't break the cottage rule either.
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You obviously have no idea what your talking about please stop.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
um. No. Brutes and stalkers do not get energize. So... um. There's no point here. The cottage rule isn't working through energize, since energize is not in the Villain sets. So yes, porting changes back is a BIG ISSUE for the developers. . |
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So? It makes up for it by offering up more protective abilities. Nothing in the set would imbalance a /FF Corruptor, and it would be a good set for a more offensive-minded character, since it allows for more blasting time than almost any other Corruptor secondary.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
This sort of misses the point of design. No, Forcefield is not okay for corruptors. I'm not talking about the offensive components, the force bolt or force bomb. Force field lacks any sort of -defense debuff, -resist debuff, -regen debuff, -recovery debuff, which every single other Corruptor set has.
Again, the only corruptor set that doesn't have -defense / -resist is kinetics, but it's balanced by kinetics having loads of other debuffs. The design was done to make up for the lack of the Villain side having a strong buff / debuff archtype to match the defender. |
Just because it doesn't have something that other secondaries don't doesn't mean that it would be a bad set. It would just be on the more protective, and less offensive of the spectrum in terms of secondaries for Corrs.
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| um. No. Brutes and stalkers do not get energize. So... um. There's no point here. The cottage rule isn't working through energize, since energize is not in the Villain sets. |
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So yes, porting changes back is a BIG ISSUE for the developers. And yes, they would Have to Make a new evil forcefield designed for corruptors in order for the forcefield set to fit the observed design elements of the corruptor class. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I'd differ with you on this point, as it goes to the very definition of corrupting. To corrupt is to make things worse, as such it's no coincidence that 'Corruptors' all have ways to weaken and debuff their foes, and no pure 'buffing' sets.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Having every set have a -resistance or -Def power in it was not necessarily part of the design element for corruptors. I've never once seen a Dev say that. Just because a majority of the original sets for them had that does not mean that it was designed so that every Corr secondary should have it.
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...on a different note, why the heck don't corruptors get poison and masterminds sonics?
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But, if we're being literal with the names of ATs, then Defenders shouldn't get a blast set that has no secondary effect that doesn't mainly help protect the team. As such, they wouldn't get sets like Radiation (the -Def helps offensively, not defensively), Sonic (same thing, but -Res).|
Originally Posted by Seldom
I'd differ with you on this point, as it goes to the very definition of corrupting. To corrupt is to make things worse, as such it's no coincidence that 'Corruptors' all have ways to weaken and debuff their foes, and no pure 'buffing' sets.
...on a different note, why the heck don't corruptors get poison and masterminds sonics? |
Controllers shouldn't get any secondary that doesn't have a control in it. Empathy, Kinetics, Storm, Thermal? You're out.
Blasters shouldn't get any secondaries that don't blast. Which takes out Energy, Fire, and Ice, mainly.
Do you see my point here? If you say that every set for a given AT has to match the AT name, you've got a lot of discrepancies here. PArt of being a Corruptor is using your Primary Blasts, many of which have a debuff of some sort attached to them, which tends to make your opponent worse. Why does every Secondary they have also have to do the same?
I'm not saying that you're wrong, per se, just that it doesn't necessarily follow that all of the Secondaries need to follow the same pattern.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I beg to differ.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
um. No. Brutes and stalkers do not get energize. So... um. There's no point here. The cottage rule isn't working through energize, since energize is not in the Villain sets. .
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And just peeking in the character creator, you'll see stalker - electric armor - Energize as well.
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Emphasis mine|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Controllers shouldn't get any secondary that doesn't have a control in it. Empathy, Kinetics, Storm, Trick Arrow, Thermal? You're out.
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Just to nitpick, /Trick Arrow is one of the controlleriest secondaries there is. There's Entangling Arrow, an immobilize, Ice Arrow, a hold, Poison Gas Arrow, a sleep, and EMP Arrow, an AoE hold. That's not even counting the control value of movement slow in glue arrow, knockdown in Oil Slick Arrow, and -perception in Flash Arrow.
Your point is taken, but this was a bad example.
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Fair enough on that. I put it in there too quickly. I'll try to remove it from my list.
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Originally Posted by Basilisk
Emphasis mine
Just to nitpick, /Trick Arrow is one of the controlleriest secondaries there is. There's Entangling Arrow, an immobilize, Ice Arrow, a hold, Poison Gas Arrow, a sleep, and EMP Arrow, an AoE hold. That's not even counting the control value of movement slow in glue arrow, knockdown in Oil Slick Arrow, and -perception in Flash Arrow. Your point is taken, but this was a bad example. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Anyone besides me want Forcefields for Corruptors? I know bubbles are a boring set to some, but they float my boat. Would also like to see Sonic for Masterminds. Discuss...