Katana or Ma Scrapper

A lost in my books is different then yours. Kiting around/running and phasing when your low health just to stay alive is a lost imo and always will be. It’s not impressive to never lose in a melee duel if you do that, it’s only impressive to survive standing still, and seeing as a build can’t beat everything, you just haven’t met your weakness yet, or your only playing with the guys from freedom.

I’m not sure how you fight, but I for one do not button mash, and I can assure you any of the good players I’ve seen don’t either. The only difference between the 2 games is using the arrow keys and inspirations. If you really believe dueling is button mashing, how is your play style any different? You really think adding some small boosts and hitting the arrow keys makes your style take much more skill? Not being able to run when your low health makes it a different kind of hard, but being one of the best duelists isn’t as easy as many of you make it sound.

No, I’m a dueler. Dueling and 4v4 are 2 different games. I choose one because I excel at it and because I enjoy it more, I’m not sure why you feel you should ridicule anyone who enjoys playing their game a little differently. I never said dueling was harder, I’m saying that it’s more complex then a lot of you think. Just because I’m good at golf doesn’t mean I’m good at swimming. Both take different skills and one is not ultimately harder then the other. There could be arguments saying one is more difficult, but I believe that it’s equally hard to be the best if the competition is as skilled. Meaning, being the best warzone player would be easy if there weren’t any good warzone players, and being the best FCer would be easy if nobody was good at it, but right now it seems impossible to be the best at both. Even though many of the good players left, good players still exist.

I heard siphon life’s heal wasn’t affected by heal decay, and I’ve never seen it heal something around 70. I’d need to see testing in order to believe anything concerning that now.

You’re forgetting the skill it takes to create a good build, this is one of the reasons I never hand mine out. You can’t just assume equal skill, because it can’t be measured. If a DB/Fire brute fights a Broad sword/regen, it’s the DB/fire brutes experience with that build. He needed skill to make it perfect, he needed skill to learn how to use it and he needs the skill in order to adapt to different situations. You cannot hand a build to someone and expect them to beat people. You need to fully understand why that build was built the way it was and exactly how to use it.

So assuming equal skill also assumes equal builds. And it should be a tie, unless one is completely offensive, in which case one has to win and one has to lose.

I only expect to get interrupted by certain people, i like to believe the majority of people are good and won't bother me.

There is hard core pvp on both sides, both can be easy and both can be hard, it depends on who your going against.

I'm fine with both sides, mostly because i've been a part of both. I enjoy one side more then the other, and *somehow* that defines me.

would u mind showing that evidence? i'd love to see whatever you could bring to the table.

If i truely believed numbers were a factor in a debate, or a matter of opinion, i would have switched to your side by now.

All the evidence anyone could ever need is in this thread. Blatantly disregarding proven concepts and not using logic or reasoning towards additional elements are a good start.

Well to a good player, nothing is unpredictable, but the same goes for your “zonal” pvp.

It’s hard to become a good player and know every little detail about every power in the game. Adding inspirations and movement doesn’t make it much more complicated. So if you think duels are easy, then pvp in general is easy.

You don’t duel much do you? DM that uses fear? No that’s not a good method. What I didn’t predict about fighting a DM scrapper was he a pure buzz saw and did the 2nd most damage I’ve ever seen in a small amount of time.

And how did that katana even get parry in the first place?

I shouldn’t need to provide examples on how someone needs to adapt during a fight. But seeing as you couldn’t think of one yourself, timing rage and hasten to get enough burst to kill a regen, or timing rage and hasten so it’s perma the entire match even with a bunch of recharge slows on you. You need to learn how to respond in situations you’ve never been in before, you need to adapt to your opponent and learn how to kill them.

My SS/fire (old expensive build) fought an SS/invul with no DR. The first match was a draw, and he said he could kill me, he just needed to adapt. I actually bet him some things that he couldn’t, but he timed his rage/hasten with my hasten (because back then I relied on hastens +rech for healing flames) and used unstoppable to make KoBs hold not last as long. The timing was perfect and he killed me. He adapted that second match and was better, I was actually better the second match as well, but not enough. That’s how I know skill is a factor in duels. It’s not just the build, or he would have won right away. That was a simpler example, there are more complex ones, but the explaination would be much longer.

You don’t understand how complex FC can be because you’re most likely not around good players or never really got into it. Trying beating some of the best FCers, there is a huge difference between you, who doesn’t understand the mechanics, and them, who know the mechanics and things needed for a good duel.

Humans aren’t predictable, you can’t argue that and I’m not even going to give a response for something so obvious.

I think it’s easy to survive if I run every time my health is low, that doesn’t take skill at all. It takes more skill to fight face to face when using melees because if you don’t, it’s a tie.

I believe I was quoting either Mac or Con, or someone else you guys idolize when I said 2 good players cannot take 5 regulars. It’s one of the first things I read when I came onto here and read some i13 complaint threads. Sadly the argument does hold up, I wish it didn’t, but a good player cannot take 3 regular players. My scrapper has taken 4 people at once, even killed them all. But they were noobs, and 2 of them were stalkers and I was standing on caltrops the entire time. One was an ice dom though, the confuse was annoying. A pro should be able to take about 4 noobs, but a pro shouldn’t even be able to take 3 good regular players. And in 2v5, 5 good players attacking on a pro, the pro will die.


This is probably the most important point of all, if Zonal pvp is harder then FC, then the best zonal player should be able to “step down” and beat the best FCer. But he couldn’t, why? Because they are 2 different games. They have different tactics. The best zonal player’s tactics wouldn’t work if he was standing still and the best FCers tactics wouldn’t work if he had to chase his opponent. That is proof that one is not a step down from the other but simply 2 separate games.

There was a genius move Leroy did a while back with his brute, I tried to outsmart him and he saw right through it, that’s why I love dueling skilled players, they always impress me. I’ll try to remember what it was…

This isn’t it, but one of the tricks he used was his pet. Usually it’s best to get rid of the pet first on something as hardy as a brute, because then you can reduce their DPS by a lot. Well it turned out he just had a power slot open and picked it. It wasn’t slotted and he summoned it at the beginning of every duel just to distract his opponent. Again it’s simple but it caught me at the time.

Another one was throwing caltrops behind him but close enough that he wouldn’t dare trying to aid self and lose his a lot of end. I started doing that because instinctively when someone is losing health they start to back up away from their opponent to heal, but Leroy kept a calm mind and saw through that, so instead of backing up into the caltrops even further, he ran past me.

That may sound logically and easy, but in the middle of an intense battle where you need to be aware of every power your opponent uses, both of your health and end bars, and how much time your powers have left to recharge, catching this little stuff is difficult.

Also another one was when I was watching my tohit rolls and the amount of damage he and I were doing to each other, I learned my damage against him was fluxuating, meaning he was toggling a resistance power on and off to keep his end stable. So I timed Build up and made sure all my powers were recharged for when he turned it off to keep his end steady and bursted him to death because the resistance power was off.

And yet another example was almost the same, but I found out my opponent was using wedding band (it was on a fire tank, so I couldn’t tell just from animations), I called him on it and he said he was new and didn’t know he shouldn’t use temps in duels, and then he turned it off.

That’s about 5 or 6 examples of things you need to know to become the best, something that separates a good dueler from a newbie one.

Similar, maybe. He never took these things as seriously as i did and threw out funny comments now and then.

I heard some people already asked Leroy from justice, you can ask them, or i can just tell you. I'm not Zen shadow. I never knew him but his posts were always the ones that stuck out when i read threads.

stop talking.

What proven concepts am i disregarding?

I'm one of the only people here bringing logic here. Most of them, like yourself, are instead just throwing insults left and right. It's either because you don't know what we are talking about, meaning you basically don't understand the concept, or your simply trying to back up your "heroes" without any real argument.

Blind insults mean nothing, and apparently you do not know that because you threw one. You can try to insult me, but unless there is true logic in it i won't actually be insulted.

Bad and faulty logic is worse than no logic at all. Somehow you've managed to make yourself look worse and worse every time you've tried to apply "logic" to one of these discussions ("I was distracted by someone summoning a pet" or "Aid Self is better than Healing Flames because every powerset can take it" are lolworthy at best and downright sad at worst).

You can believe the world is flat, and that the universe revolves around the Earth, and argue those points 'til you're blue in the face, but experience and numbers prove otherwise and continuing to stubbornly maintain a position that's incorrect will get you nothing but laughter from those who know better.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Actually the actual math and science of the universe is unknown and still debated, much like the things on these forums. It's more like i'm debating about time moving slower and faster in some parts of the universe but people who don't want to believe it or can't even imagine it, deny it.

Also, the facts and statistics of HF vs Aidself cannot be debated. Those are absolute numbers.

But which is better can be debated. HF is better then aidself because it's interrupted and heals more, but aid self is better in the way that it can be picked up by any AT. Meaning any brute can get a heal almost like HF. Aside from HF, fire doesn't really have anything to offer, so it's useless imo.

I'm not going to quote for you everything you've said that makes you look about as smart as a planted carrot. Reading and learning are your own responsibility.

Mobility makes a person a better pvper. It is an additional necessary to survive. No one laughs at you when you come away with the "W" in a ladder match.

Denying a kill is just as important as getting a kill sometimes. If you pop a tier 9 and i know (through research and experience) that i cant out DPS you, evasion is a perfectly acceptable strategy to wait it out. Not my fault you arent SKILLED enough to kill those people who are playing smart.

Who is your best PvP toon and when are you logging into test with him?

I bet those other sets dont get fiery embrace though do they
or toxic res. Edit: from aid self.

HF is a better power period, if you had the option to pick up HF instead of aid self in the medicine pool, what exactly do you think people would pick?

Good lord man. Are you really this clueless even when it comes to the one thing you specialize in?

The fear is by far the biggest -tohit in the set, and that's what it's used for in duels.

Also, you keep saying you've been playing since the beginning. Any reason nobody ever heard of you until a few months ago? And don't even try pulling the "i didn't post on forums" card. With how much you post every day, there's no way anyone will believe you could go like 4 years without posting at all.

If you give me a week or so to get my Fiteclub toon in working order, want to meet on test? He has a PvE build right now. Maybe we can put an end to this foolishness. :P

No one knows for certain whether time moves faster or slower in different parts of the universe. We simply don't know enough about it to determine what's correct and what isn't. I'm talking about proven facts, not theorycrafting. This isn't a quantum physics debate. It never has been, it never will be. It's a numbers debate, simple as that. We're using numbers that have been backed up by twelve issues of PvP in a wide variety of situations including the ones you're bringing up. You're using numbers that you think apply to your limited and narrow view of the PvP world while you completely toss aside anything and anyone that might *gasp* prove you wrong. Congratulations, you're good at standing in melee range, clicking attacks, and occasionally clicking a heal if your health gets low. I could sit my little cousin (who has never played videogames, much less this game) down at the computer, tell her "these buttons are attacks, these are heals, use them when your health is low," and she'd be at the very least competitive against other fiteklubbers. I couldn't drop her into standard zone or arena PvP and have that same level of success. In short, standing in melee range bashing on each other until you die doesn't make either of you good players. A good player is able to play a variety of characters well in a variety of situations, and your experience playing only melee builds in a fiteklub environment kind of contradicts that.

Somewhere upthread you mentioned you don't share your builds with people. That's unfortunate because it means you will learn nothing from those with more experience than you, and you'll be shutting out players who want to learn? Is that really how you want to make a name for yourself? For example, I could probably rip your build a new one without even taking the Medicine pool out of the build, and as a result you'd be "stronger" in whatever it is you do, but your refusal to share builds means that will never happen. Also somewhere upthread you mention that a melee fiteklub duel should be a tie given equal build and "skill" and someone will only win if they're more offensive, but what if both players are equally offensive? Logic would dictate they'd kill each other at the same time, every time, but experience and the game mechanics say that will rarely, if ever, happen (it's only ever happened to me once the entire time I've been PvPing).

Yes, you're correct there.

"Almost like." The key word in that statement is "almost," even though in that content "almost" should be replaced by "nothing." Aid Self is "almost like" Healing Flames just as much as Dull Pain is "almost like" Healing Flames or Healing Aura (they're "almost like" each other because they give you health back!). You can reliably use Healing Flames in heavy combat, whereas Aid Self will probably get you killed if you don't run yourself out of endurance trying to get it to go off without being interrupted. It's exactly like saying Stamina is better than Quick Recovery because it gives less base endurance but is available to every AT (here's a hint: QR is better in every way).

Aside from Healing Flames, Fire has Fiery Embrace which stacks with Rage or Build Up for very high-damage spikes, it has Burn which is good Stalker repellant (and is the only player-available mez protection left in PvP as far as I'm aware), it has good slow resists, and it has high resistance to one of the most common types of damage found on Scrappers, Blasters, and Doms. I'd hardly call that "useless." However, your one-dimensional view of the game may well render it useless, and that's your loss.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

I don't bring up fiteklub out of the blue, nor does Con. However, we will point out when someone is wrong, especially when that person is giving advice to potential new PvPers. The worst possible thing you can do to a potential new PvPer given the current state of PvP is give them bad advice and information, and I'm only trying to ensure that doesn't happen (for example: Fire Armor's one of the best defensive sets available, Aid Self is not better than Healing Flames, and moving and using inspirations are okay).

EDIT: Wow, now that I'm re-reading that article, it's like one massive parallel to fiteklub versus real PvP.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

I don't bring it up. But when people bring that advice into this section there is really no place for it. Or at the very least it should come with the disclaimer that 'hey this is great advice if you can get your opponent to follow these rules', but honeslty then we should be just telling them to roll elec therms and only fight people in no inspiration matches. When fiteclub is on the same ground as applicable all around pvp I will stop smacking it down. Until then I will just call bad advice what it is.



Can you imagine the novice pvper trying to get a grasp on that area of the game. They figure they should research to get better and go looking. They come here and post something like 'what are some good combos for pvp' and they get answers like 'wp is the top set' or 'dark melee is the number two set'. Armed with this info they back off to the game and roll up wp/dm toon. And after leveling it and messing around with it they find out that they keep getting subpar returns out of a toon they were told was pretty much top notch. Do you think that would leave a bad taste in their mouth toward pvp? You bet it would, and thats why the fiteclub advice has no place here unless specifically asked for. Its always best to assume people are not following the fake rules instead of the other way around.



See where I am coming from now?

this