Katana or Ma Scrapper

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Considering that is how I first got introduced to PvP on my DM/Regen and got horribly bored by how predictable it could be, I know a lil about it. Its all about beating a survivability curve in a very static environment. Like AV solo'ing. There are max DPS chains that every set can put out. These have all been documented, its not a mystery or skill or anything like that. There are also survivability charts for defense sets (read, def/res/regen etc) so you know how much damage you can sustain over periods of like 30 seconds, 1 min, 3 min, 5 min etc etc. Its really just a numbers game, can player A out damage player B before his or her mitigation is overcome. There is no "Skill" involved beyond your build both in IO's and Power sets, and the assumption you have at best average reflexes to maintain your DPS chain when your attacks recharge as well as fire off mitigation powers when appropriate. Or did I miss something to the complexity of it all?


I'll even go so far as to say Fiteclub could be the first baby step in actually learning to PvP. You learn which attacks do the most damage and some sense of timing as to when to use your mitigation powers. But then? Its time to move on. Time to figure out how to deal with more than one person, how to deal with movement in a 3 D environment. Anticipating Damage spikes as they come in and how much mitigation you need to get out alive, when to Phase, when to Run, how to survive, how to coordinate a damage spike yourself etc etc. And that is just playing a damage class. Then you have disruption and support to figure out as well.

Since the world series is going on, we'll go with that (And try not to rip off Supermax again ) With Fiteclub, its like explaining how awesome you are in T-Ball to a major league player. Its great that you can hit the ball when it is just sitting there, but everyone else eventually grows a little and starts facing off against a pitcher.

Because I'm bored, and for the more Visual Learners what I'm trying to say is pretty much this.

Fire's probably top-tier for Scrapper primaries right now because it's got good damage, solid crit rate on the heavy hitters, and DoTs to keep Stalkers out of Hide longer. I think I'd rank Scrapper primaries as Fire -> BS -> MA -> Kat -> Spines (maybe reverse Kat and Spines, as Spines still has a little bit going for it with the range).

That's actually a very good comparison. To put it another way, if you're just learning to swim, you should probably be in the kiddie pool. There comes a point, though, where you've got to realize it's time to head to the deep pool. I mean, sure, you can stay in the kiddie pool if you want to, but then everyone looks at you funny and parents start to get concerned about their children. I started my PvP experiencing fiteklubbing in Siren's on a Kat/Regen, but eventually I got bored and started to tool around with different ways of playing and I was pleased with how much more dynamic and interesting things were. Sure, I died a lot more often, but I learned something every time I died.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

You probably never realized your talking to someone whose life is based around the study of psychology, I suggest you leave your little tricks at the door. They don’t work on someone who realizes them and sees the true meaning behind them.

No, none of my duels got interrupted, at least none that I can remember. Maybe I don’t interrupt them because I feel the emotion of guilt for all the years I did, something I wouldn’t expect someone as you to understand yet.

Are you suggesting that everyone who participates in melee dueling isn’t good? That’s a very narrow minded Mac, good players exist in both groups. Some are cowards and some are not. Some believe being a coward makes the game more fun, and the other half agrees with me that it does not. It’s a preference, and I choose not to be a coward and run.

I don’t believe that builds made the outcome of the duel. There’s the possibility you’ve never met a knowledgeable dueler, because he could beat anybody who didn’t know as much as him. There are counters, but for the most part the better player wins, not the better build.

Knowledge/Skill > Build

A build is useless if you do not know how to use it, but even if you know how to use a build that isn’t a FotM, you’ll dominate, I’ve seen it happen.

My favourite example is regeneration for scrappers, there is a specific order in which you must use them and a certain time to use them to get the full effect. Most do not know when to push what. I’ve seen people start with IH and DP (not even using the heal).
I’m a little surprised you said that it’s the build that makes the battle, you should know if a newbie goes against a pro using the exact same build, the pro with win. And if the newbie has a good build while the pro has a semi-ok build, the pro will still win. There’s no arguing this point, it’s been proven again and again while you’ve been there to witness it or not.

You said you would rather run and come back to win. But if your opponent runs, you cannot win. Would you rather enter a match knowing the outcome will be a tie? Or would you rather agree on no running and make it a win/lose situation? It’s just as simple as that, I could have ran when I was about to die, but that’s no fun. Again, all preferences, running isn’t fun imo.

Even with travel powers, you can’t get enough DPS to get through their regeneration or heals. I’m talking about a *good* melee toon. It shouldn’t die against a melee if it runs away from it. Because of the animation time it takes to get the attack off. If I’m chasing someone and I use Crane kick or Eagles claw, but the time the animation is complete they are ahead of me, even though TS closed that gap a little, they are still moving while I’m standing still. The time it takes for me to catch up is too much to have enough time to kill them, especially if we both have max run speed.

It is complex, but that level isn’t reached by many people so its existence is doubted. But there is skill in a melee duel, I wouldn’t say more or less then a warzone fight because who’s to judge that? Certainly not you, you always seemed bias towards your own side in any argument.

I’ve actually done tests that prove that melee dueling takes skill. I became friends with another regenerations scrapper who didn’t exactly know how to use the set to its full potential, something I learned a long time ago using simple math equations. After I explained everything and we practiced in arena, it was obvious he was much better. If I’m able to take a melee dueler and make him better by explaining some math, it means there are things you need to know to become the best, or better then someone else.

Wasn’t there some poll that showed that scrappers are the most popular AT? Even if there wasn’t, go check how many people are viewing the scrapper section right now, it’s always double everything else. Melees seem to be the most popular, and when someone’s main is a scrapper and they want to pvp, they aren’t going to build a blaster and get it to 50 for it. I’ve always seen Melees as more popular.

Perhaps one of the reasons I say “no” to inspirations is because I can fight better without them, except the only reason you say “yes” is because you can fight better with them. I don’t think inspirations are balanced, because reds increase “base” damage and respites heal a % of your health. It means some are much more effective on others. If melee fights allowed inspirations, I’d be beating on a tank for 2 hours before he ran out of greens.

You said “chasing” after you. Well MA is better if they are chasing you, what’s scary is when your in a melee fight against a katana and you can’t hit them. You can say that using DA every second attack lowers your damage a ton, but in a toe-toe fight it increases your DPS, especially if it has some procs. I watched a video with a katana scrapper soloing some AVs and a Rikti Pylon, he used gamblers cut every second attack to get more DPS. For a long time I used Thunder kick in between all my attacks to get more DPS, and it worked. DA does some nice damage, look at the DPA, because in a standing fight that’s all that matters. And unless you have [rage] or a lot of acc/tohit, a melee can’t kill a Kat/Regen or BS/Regen.

I’ll start on your second post now.

DM is ranked number 2 for dueling. It attacks fast enough that it can go proc crazy and take out some *thought to be invincible* tanks.

It has a self heal unaffected by DR in it's attack chain.

Midnight grasp has DoT which can stop aidself when mixed with regular attacks.

I won’t doubt that some Justice players are bad, but I will say that I don’t see them often.
What I do know is that Freedom is crawling with noobs right and left. I’m not saying good players don’t exist, and I don’t see how this can be insulting, but the majorities are people who don’t know what they are doing.

That shouldn’t be insulting as there are so many people on freedom, but on justice where the population is limited, you’re talking about people who have been my friends for years.

Actually, I take some of that back, your opinion on “good” and “bad” are bias towards those who agree with you. No matter how good I am, you will always think of me as a “bad” player simply because I like to play my game differently. And because of that fact, your opinion is useless. You need to be more open minded, I know good players on both sides and apparently you’re blind to see the same ones as me.

No, by pushed around I mean bullied in a sense. At least those who are somewhat emotionally weak would call it bulling. I for one couldn’t care, and you and Con are the main reasons I stay here. To balance between someone who’s nice and someone who’s mean.

Insulting people is never the answer. I could go onto a large and obvious explanation as to why, but hopefully anyone reading this can figure it out.

So your respect Leroy because he doesn’t limit himself to one side or the other, while you yourself are limited only to warzone? I don’t define someone on how they play the game, I respect people who only warzone. Darth Ronin comes to mind, I was curious to see his set up after he took my entire 8 man team 1 by 1 and then found out he’s a nice, open minded guy who just prefers one side.

Do you really believe I’m unknowledgeable? I know a lot more then you do in my area. When someone asks for dueling advice, you can’t supply them as well as I can. And vice-versa with warzone, I can’t help as much as you could.

I’m not “as” knowledgeable at warzone, but to say I’m all around not knowledgeable is incorrect.

So you truly believe that your game play is a “step up”? Well I can imagine why you think that, as I’ve read you started a Dueler, got bored and switched. Well the same happened to me except I went backwards. Warzone was fun for awhile, but I didn’t know how good I was. You can’t take a Kill:death ratio, I’ve learned that, or else Giggles would be one of the best players I know.

You fault them for liking melee duels, if someone asks for advice on dueling you respond with “lol” like comments. The truth is you can’t help them, you know your not good at duels but don’t want to admit that so you respond with something like “play my way so I can help you”.

There are more then 2 groups here, and somehow I’m getting grouped with the duelers who can’t spell on freedom.

The golden gun scenario was to show that killing someone using cheap tactics isn’t fun, at least that entertainment fades quickly.

FC is predictable if you’re against predictable enemies. But a good and skilled player isn’t, and makes sure he isn’t. So you shouldn’t base your experience on that, as you just didn’t have anybody around you that made it fun. I would hate this game if everyone was predictable, then the main point of PvP would be gone. Computers are predictable, skilled players never are.

The most complex thing about melee duels is the ability to adapt quickly in situations. This is one of the things I could not teach as it comes with experience, knowledge and time. When your opponent does one thing, you need to counter. You have different ways and different times to do different things.

Basically soloing an AV is easy because you can predict exactly what powers he’s going to use and even when. He’s a computer, he cannot think, he was programmed to use certain powers at certain times. A human is always unpredictable. You never know what they might do next. I have seen fights completely change because one skilled player decided to play a little differently.

This next part is simple and I’ll try to not over complicate it.
FC obviously takes skill because there are good and bad players. There isn’t the best Tic tac toe player or the best rock/paper/scissors player. This is because those games do not require much skill, and depend a lot on luck. But in an FC match, a good player will always beat a bad one.

You could say FC is somewhat of a baby step, but warzone is a baby step if you don’t really get into it as well.

To me, Warzone is very simple, the biggest factor is numbers. In a duel, numbers are not a factor; rather skill is the biggest factor.

With the new pvp system 2 skilled players cannot take 5 regular players.

The reason you all think FC is simple is because you never went against some of the best players at it. Once you see them you may see some of the genius tactics they have created and used to counter their enemies. I used to think FC was simple too, the regen always wins, but only once I saw a skilled player with a bad build win a FC match did I re-evaluate my opinion.

To think that your way is superior is plainly ignorant and that's why your not respected by so many reasonable people.

FC can be seen as simple math,
while warzone can be seen as simply calling targets.

You were never a good dueler and that's why you think it's so simple. If you actually had some skill towards dueling you would see the complexity of it. And if I was good at warzone I’d see how "apparently" skilled it is.

I can bet you anybody that thinks FC was easy was never a champion at it. Because to beat the best isn’t easy.

i do.

My idea of fun isn't doing PvE things frequently to be able to participate in pvp.

wasn't talking about pve.
i evade that part of the game like a plague, but when you could one shot drain end with that nullifier gun; damn right i was doing pve.

omg... I can't even grasp how bad you must be if you genuinely believe that.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

*sigh* Seriously? I mean seriously? WHAT can you do that isn't predictable when you are standing completely still not using any inspirations against a Melee Class??? I'm seriously at a loss here. Everyone who has been around for even a little while knows what the powers do from just about every set out there. There is no "Big Surprise" That suddenly when fighting a DM user you get feared occasionally. Or you are fighting a Katana user who suddenly gets more difficult to hit, but isn't putting out quite as much damage. *gasp!* How are they doing this? My guess it'd be Parry Spam. You think you have someone dead, but oh wait! They just fired off a heal that restored most if not all of their hit points!!!! Some sort of trick!? Nah its likely dull pain.

Seriously... examples here. What is there to adapt too? You are spamming damage powers without moving and using your mitigation set accordingly. What IS there to counter? Your opponent suddenly starts to Spam DA/Parry and you don't have enough to hit already? Use build up. Am I a pr0 yet? Like I said before, timing things when standing still is incredibly basic. Its something you need to do through all levels of PvP. Considering you are saying that is the MOST complex thing about Fiteclub I pretty much stand by my last post. Its the training wheels or as Mac put it the kiddie pool of PvP.

See here you have another problem. There are already established *Best* chains for Damage and the *best* way to mitigate damage. If I'm dueling someone and I see they are say, Katana Regen... guess what? I know what powers they have, I know what they do, and I know how to use them and how they can be used against me. That makes them predictable. If someone gets low on health with no click Regen powers up? Guess what, they are going to try to take a defensive stance. If their HP is higher and they have emergency powers up, they are going to be more offensive. I know that most Regen builds have Recon up every 16-23 seconds. I know the recharge times on DP and IH for high end builds, I always would assume I'm fighting the best build even if they don't have the IO's to back it. I know that stacking 3 Parry's can get you as high as 70% defense to melee, I know that also is likely to get DR'ed. There are to hit formulas out there if you cared to look that will tell you what % to hit you would have in that situation with tactics, Focused Acc, Build up, global ACC bonuses, slotting on powers, etc etc... so again where is this unpredictable behavior?

There are good and bad players when it comes to everything. Yes it does take a basic understand of your build and your opponents. But in such a limited situation you end up tossing aside so many other possible factors (Movement, evasion, phasing, inspiration use, etc etc) it DOES look really simple as far as skill goes. Its like basic addition does take skill and an understanding of numbers and how they work, so does calculus.

This just makes you bad. I'm sorry but it does. You can still win out against numbers, just no where near the margin you used to be able too. Give me 2 other good players who aren't all on melee toons and I can likely wreck 5 average players who don't coordinate all that well. Numbers matter, but they are far from the only thing that matters. I've had superior numbers and lost. I've had odds against me an won, so that argument doesn't exactly hold water.

Please, pretty please just share one of these genius tactics that have been crafted by fiteclubbers? I'm willing to keep an open mind on this if I think it will make me a better PvP'er, that if some how I missed something an opponent can do while standing there toe to toe with me. Just one. I'm not asking you to spill your entire bag of secrets. Just one example of a "Genius tactic" No need to reply to the rest of my post, its all pretty irrelevant next to the promise of learning something new that I overlooked before.

LOL and here I thought he found some way to Hax the game and wreck players in Rikiti Warzone FightKlub bich smack style.




:joke:

but srs guys thats a lot of typeing you 2 (sent and mac).

typing while flipping burgers is hard.

lmao

I prefer warzone, it's more self-explainitory.

And this is why i try to break up posts, because when someone sees one that equals around 2 pages in word, they skip it.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."