Well since you put it that way. Yeah, I can dig it.
The one thing that bothers me the most is that these attitudes are becoming more and more accepted into the "mainstream" than anything and it tends to worry me. What does this mean for our future when a good amount of parents can't even teach their own children decent manners.
(ZOMG DERAIL WARNING!)
Whoever neg-repped me about derailing the thread...
Ooookayyy.... it's my own thread, I started it. I'll derail it with 2 sentences if I please and then put it right back on track directly afterwards in the same post.
(END OF ZOMG DERAIL WARNING)
I must admit, when I saw this posted as a guide, I was expecting something a bit different than an editorial.
Some actual guide style information might be a worthwhile addition - how do you find the toggle in the options, for instance. The sorts of things it can and cannot filter. Foreign language implications; I do know that the boards do not like a very common Latin word, found in the expression "magna *** laude", which has always struck me as overzealous.
There are other filters in play, such as the names filter, that ought to be explained. I was dumbstruck when I learned that I could not name one of my mastermind's ninjas "Saddam" directly.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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If this is the sort of thing you're talking about, then we aren't in disagreement. That sort of thing is disruptive, but not because the words are offensive. And I of course agree that playing a villain doesn't excuse one from the rules.|
Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic
Actually yes, a Local Word list tied in with the built-in swear filter would be a nice addition but it still doesn't excuse continued Behavior which violates the rules of the game.
(Note: I said "Continued") a stray word here and there can usually be overlooked (when directed at nobody in paticular) Continued usage of profanity and directed use of profanity, that will get you somewhere alright, sometimes a 3-7 day vacation from CoX depending. but when someone decides to use every last 4-letter word in their limited vocabulary over and over again... thats when I get upset about it and ask politely for them to stop. If they don't, it's a petition and a global note (I don't do ignores. We only have a max of 50 globals we can ignore, and I'd rather leave that for the REAL bad people). |
On the other hand, my point is that there's a difference between being disruptive and simply ill-mannered. I was raised to say "please" and "thank you", but I don't play Politeness Police when other people obviously weren't.
Again, if the admins had opted for manual enforcement, this shouldn't be an issue. The presence of a filter means that it's your own fault if you see offensive words.
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Thats a good point to make however the most I can do is add information on how to turn the filter on and off in the game, I'm not really feeling the "find out what is and isn't filtered" bit at the moment even though I have a huge list of American swear words (I say American because the English have completely different words for swears and that might end up causing some confusion, however I could probally research into English swears too but I'm not THAT bored) that I can shove into the filter and see what it bites in like my Empty SG channel or something. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I must admit, when I saw this posted as a guide, I was expecting something a bit different than an editorial.
Some actual guide style information might be a worthwhile addition - how do you find the toggle in the options, for instance. The sorts of things it can and cannot filter. Foreign language implications; I do know that the boards do not like a very common Latin word, found in the expression "magna *** laude", which has always struck me as overzealous. There are other filters in play, such as the names filter, that ought to be explained. I was dumbstruck when I learned that I could not name one of my mastermind's ninjas "Saddam" directly. |
Personally I have my profanity filter turned off because I've played other games with them and unfortunately it was extremely disruptive to general chat not knowing what barely anybody was saying because it was so strict.
Take the above as a example of the chat being unfiltered.
With filtering...
Personally I have my profanity filter turned off because I've ****** other games with them and ************* it was extremely disruptive to ******* chat not knowing what ****** anybody was saying because it was so strict.
This is why I shut it off. CoX doesn't do this sure... but I've had a bad history with profanity filters never working as intended.
If I recall correctly the terms your looking for are American English and Queen's English since the people I know who live in those areas feel that does make more sense than the old English/American English terminology. As far as filters go I fully understand what you mean since the filter in the old Sega game Phantasy Star Online which often blocked out common words only for the fact that they has minor or major "swear words" in them. An example would be the debate over the short word for jewish which would get blocked out due to the first three letters. In actuality that word isn't racist yet somehow is depending on the context. Then again just about sixty percent of those slurs could be negated due to context.
Most of the time I tend to ignore the main chat window unless i'm activly looking for a team or something so in my case it isn't as big of a problem.
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Learn something new every day, Thanks for pointing out that distinction *commits it to memory* I was trying to avoid the whole "Old English" terminology like the plague because even I don't like calling it that and I didn't know the proper term for it.|
Originally Posted by CyberDragon
If I recall correctly the terms your looking for are American English and Queen's English since the people I know who live in those areas feel that does make more sense than the old English/American English terminology. As far as filters go I fully understand what you mean since the filter in the old Sega game Phantasy Star Online which often blocked out common words only for the fact that they has minor or major "swear words" in them. An example would be the debate over the short word for jewish which would get blocked out due to the first three letters. In actuality that word isn't racist yet somehow is depending on the context. Then again just about sixty percent of those slurs could be negated due to context.
Most of the time I tend to ignore the main chat window unless i'm activly looking for a team or something so in my case it isn't as big of a problem. |
Anyway the filter can be found in your options menu under General in the Chat section. Pretty simple and close to the top of the list so its easy to find.
I have to ask, is this really that big of an issue?
I'm pretty free with the swearing, both in real life and in-game. I don't do it a lot in broadcast or other open channels, but that's mostly because I don't have reason to use that kind of language, it does happen though. I'm quite free with the swearing though once I'm on a team, even when it's a PuG with a bunch of people I don't know.
That being said, in the 18 months I've played this game (totaling up several thousand hours of playtime, with a total of 10 50s) I've never had a single person tell me that they were offended by my swearing and ask me to stop.
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Actually, I would have made that same comment... were it not made already, that is.|
Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic
"srs bsns. Also, "could of" doesn't mean anything. It's could *have*."
Are you freaking serious? |
If you are going to post a "guide" it should be professional in appearance, and at least somewhat serious in tone. Yours is one, but not quite the other.
Also, might I inquire as to what prompted this "guide" in the first place? Anyone who disagrees with you and doesn't care, will continue to not care, IMO, and those who agree... well, they are already following your "guide" to the letter anyway.
True its not that professional, but I passed Spelling class, but never took english. I blame it on moving around so much. So I never made it to High School.
IOW My grammar isn't the best, but I try to the best of my ability.
What prompted this was that more and more people believe this is appropriate behaviour over the global channels en masse and it's coming to the point where its moved beyond tolerable.
I can understand someone saying sh** just as they faceplant in the midst of a ambush gank.
But just spamming the chat with a whole bunch of profanity, racial slurs, sexuality bashing and, sexually charged comments is a bit much.
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I have to agree that that type of behavior is in bad taste, and violates the rules that we players agree upon every time we log in... However, what difference does writing a guide that a small percentage of the player base will read, and a presumably much smaller percentage will actually take to heart, and change their in-game attitude over?
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Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic
But just spamming the chat with a whole bunch of profanity, racial slurs, sexuality bashing and, sexually charged comments is a bit much.
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Let's pretend for a minute that we're talking about the least-used powerset combo in the game. I have no idea what this combo is, so let's just call it X melee/Y armor. Or if you prefer, X support/Y blast. Or whatever.|
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
I have to agree that that type of behavior is in bad taste, and violates the rules that we players agree upon every time we log in... However, what difference does writing a guide that a small percentage of the player base will read, and a presumably much smaller percentage will actually take to heart, and change their in-game attitude over?
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What difference does writing a guide about X melee/Y armor, that a small percentage of the player base will read, and a presumably much smaller percentage will actually take to heart, and create a character because of it?
Same difference.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Same reason why I've tried those least-used powerset combos. Somebody wrote about them, more people said they sucked and I decided to give em a shot to see if I could somehow make it not suck as bad.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Let's pretend for a minute that we're talking about the least-used powerset combo in the game. I have no idea what this combo is, so let's just call it X melee/Y armor. Or if you prefer, X support/Y blast. Or whatever.
What difference does writing a guide about X melee/Y armor, that a small percentage of the player base will read, and a presumably much smaller percentage will actually take to heart, and create a character because of it? Same difference. |
If someone doesn't do it, nobody will.
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It's odd that you say there's so much of it. I play on Freedom, which as we all know is "a wretched hive of scum and villainy" and I see this kind of behavior only very rarely. I play during close to peak hours too, so I'm pretty sure that's not it either. Maybe it's just you?
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Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic
True its not that professional, but I passed Spelling class, but never took english. I blame it on moving around so much. So I never made it to High School.
IOW My grammar isn't the best, but I try to the best of my ability. What prompted this was that more and more people believe this is appropriate behaviour over the global channels en masse and it's coming to the point where its moved beyond tolerable. I can understand someone saying sh** just as they faceplant in the midst of a ambush gank. But just spamming the chat with a whole bunch of profanity, racial slurs, sexuality bashing and, sexually charged comments is a bit much. |
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The difference is, the guide you propose will most likely educate someone about something they might not have done otherwise. The present conversation involves asking people to noticeably shift their online social behavior.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Let's pretend for a minute that we're talking about the least-used powerset combo in the game. I have no idea what this combo is, so let's just call it X melee/Y armor. Or if you prefer, X support/Y blast. Or whatever.
What difference does writing a guide about X melee/Y armor, that a small percentage of the player base will read, and a presumably much smaller percentage will actually take to heart, and create a character because of it? Same difference. |
The difference being, one asks them to play the game, the other asks them to BE different in that game. Which do you think is more likely?
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I'm usually playing off-peak and thats around the time these types of people claw their way out of the woodwork.
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Originally Posted by firespray
It's odd that you say there's so much of it. I play on Freedom, which as we all know is "a wretched hive of scum and villainy" and I see this kind of behavior only very rarely. I play during close to peak hours too, so I'm pretty sure that's not it either. Maybe it's just you?
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First, this is a discussion, not a guide -- it should be moved to the City Life section.
Second, there actually are kids who play this game, including my 12-year-old. Sure, these kids hear all the crude, rude and socially unacceptable language at school, but that doesn't mean I want them to see it typed out in the game when the rules are clear that it is not supposed to be. I already kicked my child off of one other game because of the language being used. CoH is much better, but there are always those lowbrows who like to type things in a way to circumvent the filter. It is like turning on a channel on cable that you thought was OK, and then you get something gross that isn't supposed to be there.
Third, I generally don't want to see that stuff, either. The rules are clear, and there are no GOOD reasons why they shouldn't be followed. I don't care if you think I'm a prude . . .
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Generally speaking, its a guide on the rules against profanity. However considering how flammable this topic is, it's gonna hit into the "discussion" area quickly.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
First, this is a discussion, not a guide -- it should be moved to the City Life section.
Second, there actually are kids who play this game, including my 12-year-old. Sure, these kids hear all the crude, rude and socially unacceptable language at school, but that doesn't mean I want them to see it typed out in the game when the rules are clear that it is not supposed to be. I already kicked my child off of one other game because of the language being used. CoH is much better, but there are always those lowbrows who like to type things in a way to circumvent the filter. It is like turning on a channel on cable that you thought was OK, and then you get something gross that isn't supposed to be there. Third, I generally don't want to see that stuff, either. The rules are clear, and there are no GOOD reasons why they shouldn't be followed. I don't care if you think I'm a prude . . . |
But then again any guide replied to, or someone adds something in for it, it becomes a discussion. (Honestly for this section of the forums I would like to see a ability for all new post to be "Hidden" till reviewed by a moderator, then posted and locked with a discussion link elsewhere.)
And yes, I believe there is no good reasons that people should have to swear. I can understand a audible blurt in the real world, but to swear in a game, you see what your typing and you make the decision to hit the enter key submitting it to everybody or to re-type what you were about to say.
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Pardon me if I am splitting hairs here, but isn't that younger than a teen? Which is what the game is rated for? (Also, I thought I read somewhere that there is a minimum age to play... that is above 13. I can't access a copy of the EULA at the moment to confirm this).|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
including my 12-year-old.
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As a further devil's advocate... when you let your child play, does he/she click the [I Agree] button? Technically, your child is not allowed to do that because clicking that button is in essence agreeing to a contract, something persons under the age of 18 are not allowed to do.
So, while I can abide that there should not be swearing (as per the EULA), it should not be to accomodate someone, who as far as I know, shouldn't be playing this game in the first place when not totally supervised, including having dear old dad click the [I Accept] button.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
It is like turning on a channel on cable that you thought was OK, and then you get something gross that isn't supposed to be there.
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While I am not trying to criticize your parenting skills, indeed I know nothing about you or your child, I am instead simply using your text as a springboard to my prefered method of advocating for a certain goat-legged ex-angel.
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I find it interesting that you are nitpicking my comments, and yet seem to be taking the side of people who are violating the rules. |
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
Pardon me if I am splitting hairs here, but isn't that younger than a teen? Which is what the game is rated for? (Also, I thought I read somewhere that there is a minimum age to play... that is above 13. I can't access a copy of the EULA at the moment to confirm this).
As a further devil's advocate... when you let your child play, does he/she click the [I Agree] button? Technically, your child is not allowed to do that because clicking that button is in essence agreeing to a contract, something persons under the age of 18 are not allowed to do. So, while I can abide that there should not be swearing (as per the EULA), it should not be to accomodate someone, who as far as I know, shouldn't be playing this game in the first place when not totally supervised, including having dear old dad click the [I Accept] button. |
The "Teen" rating is a guideline, not a law or even a rule -- I dare you to show me where in the EULA or any statute that says that a 12-year-old is not allowed to play CoH. Besides, my 17-year old also plays, and even though he "has heard it all," I don't particularly want him to see foul language, either. Besides, it is obvious by the use of the term, "Teen," that the publisher of this game intended some of the users to be minors.
Minors enter into contracts every day. Every purchase of goods or services, even a candy bar, is a contract. Some types of contracts are considered "executory," meaning that the performace is expected in the future, and some are "contingent" based upon the happening of other events. These contracts, when entered into by a minor, are legally considered "voidable" rather than "Void." That means that the minor can choose to rescind the contract when the minor reaches the age of majority, but it does not make the contract invalid. So technically? You are wrong on that point. (Don't argue the law with a lawyer!)
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You're right. It is exactly like that, an activity that should be closely supervised and scrutinized by discerning parents and not trusted to a cable network or a computer chip to discriminate programming on their behalf. While I am not trying to criticize your parenting skills, indeed I know nothing about you or your child, I am instead simply using your text as a springboard to my prefered method of advocating for a certain goat-legged ex-angel. |
I actually have two accounts. One is mine, one was my wife's before she quit the game. I keep the second account mainly for the kids. I often team with whichever one wants to play. It gives us stuff to talk about. If the kind of crass language comes up while I'm on the game with one of the kids, then I can deal with it. As I said, there was another game that I kicked them off of because I did not like what I saw there. Yes, they often play CoH when I'm not around. The crude language doesn't bother them nearly as much as it bothers me, as they hear it all the time at school (where I have no control whatsoever). But, I'm happy to say, my kids don't use that language from what I have been able to tell, and their friends confirm that my kids are viewed as being a bit on the prudish side (Good!).
The problem really arises based upon expectations. If I purchase a movie rated PG, and it contains R-rated material, then I'm going to be upset -- not for me, as I have seen plenty of R-rated movies, but because I expected a certain type of content that I was willing to expose to the kids. In the case of this game, the Devs/Publisher does a pretty good job trying to maintain it's "T" rating -- but they acknowledge much of it depends upon the community. Either the individuals need to control themselves, or when someone gets out of control, the other members of the community should step up and let that person know that his/her behavior is not acceptable. That is how we set "community standards."
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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For this kind of thing to be a "guide," you need to guide folks. Provide information or suggest ways to deal with situations. Explain how the filter works and its limitations (if you know). Suggest polite or clever ways to ask offenders to behave in accord with the EULA, and maybe explain how to log conversations, screencapture offensive comments and then petition to the Devs to punish the people who continue to be offensive after gathering enough evidence.
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Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic
Generally speaking, its a guide on the rules against profanity. However considering how flammable this topic is, it's gonna hit into the "discussion" area quickly.
But then again any guide replied to, or someone adds something in for it, it becomes a discussion. (Honestly for this section of the forums I would like to see a ability for all new post to be "Hidden" till reviewed by a moderator, then posted and locked with a discussion link elsewhere.) And yes, I believe there is no good reasons that people should have to swear. I can understand a audible blurt in the real world, but to swear in a game, you see what your typing and you make the decision to hit the enter key submitting it to everybody or to re-type what you were about to say. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I find it interesting that I'm far more offended by the prudish people attempting to shove their inane morality and judgments on others under the guise of "enlightening those that haven't read the rules" than I ever am by those that color their language in any way they see fit.
This "guide" shouldn't exist. The rules are present for any and all to read at game sign in. The forum rules are stickied all over the place.
This isn't a guide. It's a soapbox. And a useless one at that.
Be well, people of CoH.
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It would have been good if this had been a guide that educated me in some way, but I feel stupider for having read most of it.|
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
The difference is, the guide you propose will most likely educate someone about something they might not have done otherwise. The present conversation involves asking people to noticeably shift their online social behavior.
The difference being, one asks them to play the game, the other asks them to BE different in that game. Which do you think is more likely? |
I don't disagree with the statements in the first post. People could be banned for bad language. Technically violent and/or sexually suggestive (or, of course, explicit) language does go against the Agreement made before logging in.
However, even ignoring the somewhat debatable validity of the American word for bum (as opposed to bum being the American word for hobo) as an actual swear, someone saying "Let's kick some ***!" is still implying violence, in fact it's an attempt to incite violence. Should they be banned for it?
I'd also argue that since the player has to change the options to allow profanity to be displayed, they're making a concious decision to consent to seeing such words. In the UK at least, 16 (the recommended age for the game) is old enough to marry and have kids. If you're an adult you should be able to read people swearing. I don't think swearing is such an issue in the EU servers (except on one particular global channel, but that's a whole other thread) because we're not as uptight about that sort of thing this side of the pond (a very broad generalisation which, if pressed, I will back up with made up statistics) but I've had people I've had to ignore before. Not for their use of swear words, but for their lack of grammar and spelling, the hatred behind their words, or just because they were spamming a lot of nonsense.
It certainly does seem that this stems from the actions of a number of people on a particular server affecting a particular person, and whilst I can appreciate the need to vent, attempting to do so in the form of an unhelpful (IMO, of course) guide, isn't the best way. Particularly, since, as has already been noted, those who're spamming your server probably wouldn't care enough to try and read this, even if they could.
Besides, your sig is very far from innocent, with it's suggested inter-species erotica.
@craggy see me on Union for TFs, SFs (please!) or just some good ol fashioned teaming.
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I've been reworking this over the period of the last few days in notepad...|
Originally Posted by craggy
It would have been good if this had been a guide that educated me in some way, but I feel stupider for having read most of it.
I don't disagree with the statements in the first post. People could be banned for bad language. Technically violent and/or sexually suggestive (or, of course, explicit) language does go against the Agreement made before logging in. However, even ignoring the somewhat debatable validity of the American word for bum (as opposed to bum being the American word for hobo) as an actual swear, someone saying "Let's kick some ***!" is still implying violence, in fact it's an attempt to incite violence. Should they be banned for it? I'd also argue that since the player has to change the options to allow profanity to be displayed, they're making a concious decision to consent to seeing such words. In the UK at least, 16 (the recommended age for the game) is old enough to marry and have kids. If you're an adult you should be able to read people swearing. I don't think swearing is such an issue in the EU servers (except on one particular global channel, but that's a whole other thread) because we're not as uptight about that sort of thing this side of the pond (a very broad generalisation which, if pressed, I will back up with made up statistics) but I've had people I've had to ignore before. Not for their use of swear words, but for their lack of grammar and spelling, the hatred behind their words, or just because they were spamming a lot of nonsense. It certainly does seem that this stems from the actions of a number of people on a particular server affecting a particular person, and whilst I can appreciate the need to vent, attempting to do so in the form of an unhelpful (IMO, of course) guide, isn't the best way. Particularly, since, as has already been noted, those who're spamming your server probably wouldn't care enough to try and read this, even if they could. Besides, your sig is very far from innocent, with it's suggested inter-species erotica. |
and how do you know that my sig promotes inter-species? Or even erotica for that matter?
In the end that game had a friend with a whip, me with the rope and generally screwing around whipping the donkey at odd occasions just to throw a wrench into the GM's story line.
After awhile when we ran out of food, thats where the pole came in, and we ended up roasting it.
*pulls your mind out of the gutter and wipes it off* Here, all clean for you
meh, not much of a crusade, its just exiting that "controlled" area where its becoming more and more rampant on some servers. I save the ignore list for people who actually get on my nerves, many of these players who like to toss their language around amuse me more than anything that they can't get creative with it.