Anyone care to explain the Attack Chain visualizer or share their spread sheets?
I think I pretty much have the visualizer figured out except DS = DPS? Is ACT=Cast Time? Also my chain kept alternating between the top two powers in my list instead of the whole chain over and over and was reporting damge in the 1000s, so something is messed up.
Hmmm...now I'm curious as to which chain to use for those times I want to try and solo the big boys.
Shriek - Scream - Shriek - Shout
or
Shriek - Scream - Shriek - Electric Fence
The DPS is close enough on both of them not to matter.
Shout keeps stacking the -resist however, so while number wise it already seems to do a few more points than the one ultilizing Electric Fence, it should also do more, just because it keeps stacking the -Resist.
Electric Fence however has the benefit for keeping at a farther range, but it's only an additional 10ft. So that might not be much of a difference to make it worthwhile.
However EF might stack up enough to immobilize the target to one spot, which might have it's own benefit.
A thought I have, is grab both Shout and Electric Fence, and switch out on which chain to go with depending on the target.
Do I want the target rooted? Is Tar Patch not keeping them in one spot enough?
You also have to remember to slot Electric Fence as an attack.
But I think for my build, I'll just go with Shout.
If EF was able to slam a Chance to Immobilize Proc in it, I'd grab it. But without that, I have to hope I can stack enough EF's on the target to keep them rooted (which at the speed of the chain, and the duration of the immobilize it's probably possible to keep a target rooted.
All that said, I think I should point out, for normal game play, an actual sustained attack chain really isn't needed (I'm sure some of you know this, but for those who don't 
).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Thank God! It took me like three hours to make that, and ever since I made it I've been praying that I haven't made any huge mistakes with it so I wouldn't have to do it over.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Looks accurate enough prior to sticking procs in the chains.
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I used the arcanatime numbers that Dylan posted earlier in the thread and used the linked formula to figure out electric fence's arcanatime. I can't remember every one I did, but I know that shriek is 60 pixels wide and electric fence is 66 pixels wide. Sorry I didn't make the graph more clear. I cut a few corners in order to make it go faster.|
Originally Posted by DarkInvado
Anyone care to explain the Attack Chain visualizer or share their spread sheets?
I think I pretty much have the visualizer figured out except DS = DPS? Is ACT=Cast Time? Also my chain kept alternating between the top two powers in my list instead of the whole chain over and over and was reporting damge in the 1000s, so something is messed up. |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
The DPS is close enough on both of them not to matter.
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Originally Posted by brandx
All that said, I think I should point out, for normal game play, an actual sustained attack chain really isn't needed
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Also, Frosticus mentioned procs. I think that the electric fence chain would benefit from procs more than the shout chain because it cycles faster and has more proc options, even though the other chain has more -res. I don't know if this advantage would make a significant difference or if it even exists, but it should be easy enough to check that later.
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Well, all I had was a bunch of numbers and chains written down without any of the conclusions... As I said, this was from some work Garent and I did over a year ago.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Assuming you had the insane recharge necessary to repeat this chain, which would be even more difficult on a storm:
+240% in screech It would produce: (95% dam buff, only sonic's -res) no proc / with apoc in scream 57 dps / 63.6 dps (first chain) 85.7 dps / 95.95 dps (second chain, peak -res) That doesn't even come close to the 118 dps that both Shriek>Scream>Shriek>Efence and Shriek>Scream>Shriek>Shout produce. Both of them do it with a heck of a lot less necessary recharge too. Not to be rude, but a chain of screech>shout>scream>shriek is one of the lowest damage ones I've personally ran the numbers on. *What you guys were experiencing (I'm guessing based on my own storm/sonic) is that attaining high -res with LS and nado is actually more important than a high dps sonic chain. That is a whole different case that presents itself for storms damage powers because that is more akin to forcemultiplying outside damage sources than a high sonic dps chain. However, since the nerf to LS it is no longer the primary source of damage in an AV encounter (assuming you specced LS to be awesome back then), so I'm confident once again that the sonic chain producing high dps is the main concern even for a storm/sonic now. Edit: for the table you produced it is also missing the fact that scream self buffs 8 of its 10 ticks giving it a much more attractive DPA. Most people overlook it when talking about sonic, but it really does make quite a difference. |
And now that I look closer and see some of the random extra stuff I had written on the side (numbers without labels, yay), it looks like we were exclusively going not for dps of the chain, but highest stacking -Res, and the Screech chain came out on top because it would waver between 4 and 6. This was before the "fix" to Lightning Storm, and Garent did have a Storm/Sonic build that he was working on which would reach the recharge required (with perma-hasten). I don't recall if this was the chain we stuck to, but Garent did manage to solo the Psychic Clockwork King without using temp powers at that time, so...
I don't know if the Storm/Sonic build would be able to keep up with that anymore, but the Screech chain is probably a good one (if you can get it) for team situations, where each -Res application is worth a ton of damage. On a solo basis, it's crap.
Also, I left the Scream without the -Res out on purpose so that nobody wouldn't accidentally count it twice when they started factoring in -Res values. I think anybody doing that math wouldn't forget that it buffs itself.
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
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Great discussion thread. I'll have to hop back onto my Son/Son as soon as I replace more of the sound FX associated with it.
It's very headache inducing at the moment.
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hehe, now you're thinking big! Try this starter chain if you decided to get shout AND EF :P|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Hmmm...now I'm curious as to which chain to use for those times I want to try and solo the big boys.
Shriek - Scream - Shriek - Shout or Shriek - Scream - Shriek - Electric Fence The DPS is close enough on both of them not to matter. Shout keeps stacking the -resist however, so while number wise it already seems to do a few more points than the one ultilizing Electric Fence, it should also do more, just because it keeps stacking the -Resist. Electric Fence however has the benefit for keeping at a farther range, but it's only an additional 10ft. So that might not be much of a difference to make it worthwhile. However EF might stack up enough to immobilize the target to one spot, which might have it's own benefit. A thought I have, is grab both Shout and Electric Fence, and switch out on which chain to go with depending on the target. Do I want the target rooted? Is Tar Patch not keeping them in one spot enough? You also have to remember to slot Electric Fence as an attack. But I think for my build, I'll just go with Shout. If EF was able to slam a Chance to Immobilize Proc in it, I'd grab it. But without that, I have to hope I can stack enough EF's on the target to keep them rooted (which at the speed of the chain, and the duration of the immobilize it's probably possible to keep a target rooted. All that said, I think I should point out, for normal game play, an actual sustained attack chain really isn't needed (I'm sure some of you know this, but for those who don't ). |
SCREECH + AMPLIFY + SHOUT + SHRIEK + SCREAM + SHRIEK + EF
then switch back to the traditional chain you previously mentioned
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aye, we appreciate you guy's input - im lousy with numbers and calculations... i just go ingame and wack to get the real numberz...
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
Well, all I had was a bunch of numbers and chains written down without any of the conclusions... As I said, this was from some work Garent and I did over a year ago.
And now that I look closer and see some of the random extra stuff I had written on the side (numbers without labels, yay), it looks like we were exclusively going not for dps of the chain, but highest stacking -Res, and the Screech chain came out on top because it would waver between 4 and 6. This was before the "fix" to Lightning Storm, and Garent did have a Storm/Sonic build that he was working on which would reach the recharge required (with perma-hasten). I don't recall if this was the chain we stuck to, but Garent did manage to solo the Psychic Clockwork King without using temp powers at that time, so... I don't know if the Storm/Sonic build would be able to keep up with that anymore, but the Screech chain is probably a good one (if you can get it) for team situations, where each -Res application is worth a ton of damage. On a solo basis, it's crap. Also, I left the Scream without the -Res out on purpose so that nobody wouldn't accidentally count it twice when they started factoring in -Res values. I think anybody doing that math wouldn't forget that it buffs itself. |
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That graph looks awesome. When I was doing the below calculations I kept going back to refer to the graph.|
Originally Posted by Garent
I created a graph. The following are the (incorrect) assumptions I made that will skew the results, but that I had to do for lack of data and for my own sanity.
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So looking through all the above posts, these are the conclusions I will draw. Correct me if I have the wrong idea:
1) Best DPS chain, but with the disadvantage of shorter range:
shriek-scream-shriek-shout (total time: 7.128s)
Power.....Recharge time....+recharge %
Shriek....1.848.............66 (hasten or 2SO)
Scream....5.280.............14 (hasten or global)
Shout.....4.224............160 (3SO+hasten)
Assuming we have high recharge so we can have hasten on most of the time.
Use 3 slots to achieve 1acc 3dam.
You can put an apocalypse proc in shriek. This has a 33% chance of procing, is used twice in the chain. Each procing causes 107.1 base damage.
If it procs the first time, from Garent's table it is buffed by -20% resist
If it procs the 2nd time, it is buffed by -60% resist
So on the average we have an additional
(0.33*107.1*1.20 + 0.33*107.1*1.60) / 7.128s = 13.88/s
For total 43.74+13.88 = 58/s
2) 2nd-best, slightly lower DPS chain, but with longer range and immobing:
shriek-scream-shriek-efence (total time: 5.412)
Efence arcanatime: 1.188
Power.....Recharge time....+recharge %
Shriek....1.848.............66 (hasten or 2SO)
Scream....3.564.............68 (hasten or 2SO+global)
Efence....4.224.............0
You can still stick the apocalypse proc in Shriek. And a trap of the hunter into electric fence.
Average DPS buff from proc in shriek:
(0.33*107.1*1.20 + 0.33*107.1*1.60) / 5.412 = 18.29
Additional DPS buff from proc in efence:
(0.20*71.8*1.60) / 5.412 = 4.25
Total DPS:
Only Apocalypse proc: 41.19 + 18.29 = 59/s
Only TOTH proc: 41.19 + 4.25 = 45/s
With both procs: 41.19 + 18.29 + 4.25 = 64/s
Without procs, the two chains are effectively the same. However, once you add in procs, the second chain benefits from activating proced powers more often, and having the procing damage buffed by -res. This makes the second chain come out ahead.
3) Best res-debuffing chain:
screech-shriek-scream-shriek-shout (total time 8.844s)
Debuffed values
Screech: 180% * 7.24 = 13.02
Shriek: 160% * 30.4 = 48.64
Scream (tick 1): 160% * 9.54 = 15.264
Scream (tick 2,3,4, 5): 180% * 4*9.54 = 68.688
Shriek: 180% * 30.4 = 54.72
Shout: 180% * 76.6 = 137.88
-----
Total: 338.21
DPS: 38/s
Which isn't really all that different from unproced 44/s and 41/s. However, most of the time you have a 80% debuff instead of a 60% debuff, which can be quite beneficial if you have teammates hitting the mob.
So if I have no procs and I am soloing, I will go with chain 1... which is very useful because anyone with just SOs and hasten can do it. Once I get epics and procs, I will switch to chain 2. If I am teamed I will switch to chain 3 (on boss or AV) and howl everytime it recharges (spawn)
Burst damage I don't care about because of I don't see myself PVPing anymore with my abyssal 500+ms ping. (Now you know why I put in the .5s between powers
)
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
Quote:
I think you're calculating the -Res and the procs and such incorrectly, in that you're looking at the beginning instance of a chain and not the second instance (which is the maintainable values of -Res). For example, in Chain 1 (Shout), Garent listed the 4 attacks twice, where the first set shows what happens when you first start attacking, and the second set shows what you'll be seeing from then on. For our purposes, the second set is the only one that matters. Secondly, what we care about is how many buffs there are at the end of the Shriek's animation.|
Originally Posted by Freem
That graph looks awesome. When I was doing the below calculations I kept going back to refer to the graph.
So looking through all the above posts, these are the conclusions I will draw. Correct me if I have the wrong idea: 1) Best DPS chain, but with the disadvantage of shorter range: shriek-scream-shriek-shout (total time: 7.128s) Power.....Recharge time....+recharge % Shriek....1.848.............66 (hasten or 2SO) Scream....5.280.............14 (hasten or global) Shout.....4.224............160 (3SO+hasten) Assuming we have high recharge so we can have hasten on most of the time. Use 3 slots to achieve 1acc 3dam. You can put an apocalypse proc in shriek. This has a 33% chance of procing, is used twice in the chain. Each procing causes 107.1 base damage. If it procs the first time, from Garent's table it is buffed by -20% resist If it procs the 2nd time, it is buffed by -60% resist So on the average we have an additional (0.33*107.1*1.20 + 0.33*107.1*1.60) / 7.128s = 13.88/s For total 43.74+13.88 = 58/s 2) 2nd-best, slightly lower DPS chain, but with longer range and immobing: shriek-scream-shriek-efence (total time: 5.412) Efence arcanatime: 1.188 Power.....Recharge time....+recharge % Shriek....1.848.............66 (hasten or 2SO) Scream....3.564.............68 (hasten or 2SO+global) Efence....4.224.............0 You can still stick the apocalypse proc in Shriek. And a trap of the hunter into electric fence. Average DPS buff from proc in shriek: (0.33*107.1*1.20 + 0.33*107.1*1.60) / 5.412 = 18.29 Additional DPS buff from proc in efence: (0.20*71.8*1.60) / 5.412 = 4.25 Total DPS: Only Apocalypse proc: 41.19 + 18.29 = 59/s Only TOTH proc: 41.19 + 4.25 = 45/s With both procs: 41.19 + 18.29 + 4.25 = 64/s Without procs, the two chains are effectively the same. However, once you add in procs, the second chain benefits from activating proced powers more often, and having the procing damage buffed by -res. This makes the second chain come out ahead. 3) Best res-debuffing chain: screech-shriek-scream-shriek-shout (total time 8.844s) Debuffed values Screech: 180% * 7.24 = 13.02 Shriek: 160% * 30.4 = 48.64 Scream (tick 1): 160% * 9.54 = 15.264 Scream (tick 2,3,4, 5): 180% * 4*9.54 = 68.688 Shriek: 180% * 30.4 = 54.72 Shout: 180% * 76.6 = 137.88 ----- Total: 338.21 DPS: 38/s Which isn't really all that different from unproced 44/s and 41/s. However, most of the time you have a 80% debuff instead of a 60% debuff, which can be quite beneficial if you have teammates hitting the mob. So if I have no procs and I am soloing, I will go with chain 1... which is very useful because anyone with just SOs and hasten can do it. Once I get epics and procs, I will switch to chain 2. If I am teamed I will switch to chain 3 (on boss or AV) and howl everytime it recharges (spawn) Burst damage I don't care about because of I don't see myself PVPing anymore with my abyssal 500+ms ping. (Now you know why I put in the .5s between powers ) |
In fact, you can just look at the notation Garent used and look there to see what the -Res multiplier is for each Shriek.
Chain 1:
Shriek has 1.8 and 1.6 for the first and second hit, respectively, so the damage from Apo is: 0.33*107.1*1.8 + 0.33*107.1*1.6 = 120.1662
Additional dps is 120.1662/7.128 = 16.8583
Total dps = 43.74+16.8583 = 60.5983
Chain 2:
Shriek has 1.4 both times, so the damage from Apo is: 0.33*107.1*1.4 + 0.33*107.1*1.4 = 98.9604
I'm going to assume that Trap of the Hunter lands on Electric Fence's first tic (somebody can correct me if I'm wrong), at which case it has a 1.6 multiplier, so 0.2*71.75*1.6=22.96
Combined added damage = 121.9204
Additional dps is 121.9204/5.544 = 21.99
Total dps = 41.19 + 21.99 = 63.18
Chain 2 still edges out ahead of Chain 1, but we need to remember that this doesn't count damage enhancements. If we did that with 95% damage in all attacks, we'd get:
Chain 1: 43.74*1.95 + 16.8583 (proc) = 102.1513
Chain 2: 41.19*1.95 + 21.99 (proc) = 102.3105
Wow. Hilariously close. Close enough that I would consider them identical in this case (due to round off error and timing of -Res error). Note that since Chain 1 benefits more from damage buffs than Chain 2, if you have any method of +Damage beyond this, then Chain 1 will pull ahead.
As for chain 3, I'll wait until Garent works up a nice graph for that. It makes it so much easier.
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
Quote:
Doh! Scratch the above post. You are absolutely correct...I must have been on drugs...|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
I think you're calculating the -Res and the procs and such incorrectly, in that you're looking at the beginning instance of a chain and not the second instance
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Will redo everything.
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| Chain 2 still edges out ahead of Chain 1, but we need to remember that this doesn't count damage enhancements. If we did that with 95% damage in all attacks, we'd get: |
Nice catch. Procs firing off will not be affected by enhancements, so we cannot take the unenhanced values!
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
Quote:
woah deja vu|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
Wow. Hilariously close. Close enough that I would consider them identical in this case (due to round off error and timing of -Res error).
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Quote:
| And yet the chain Silverado (shriek>scream>shriek>efence) listed produces identical dps to shriek>scream>shriek>shout except offers more range, it less subject to dps loss due to missing, reaches peak dps sooner and inflicts a valuable status effect. Also it doesn't root/lock you out of your powerset for 2.904 seconds on a single power meaning if you need to heal/move/whatever, you can. |
To sum up:
Chain 1 Advantages:
Benefits more from +Dmg (Assault, Fulcrum Shift, etc)
Benefits more from other sources of damage (team, pets) due to higher -Res
Chain 2 Advantages:
Shorter chain - ramps up faster
All fast attacks - less rooting, more freedom
Damage balanced better among powers - no annoying misses with key powers
Immobilize (stacks up to mag 12 without slottage)
Requires very little Recharge investment
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
If you guys are just running off the notations, then keep in mind that I only listed shriek once for chain 2 (electric fence), but it's being used twice. The reason for this is because both shrieks have the same debuff on them. Also, chain 1 (shout) has better endurance efficiency.
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An enlightened man is humble in his victory :P.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
woah deja vu
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Anyway, I did the screech chain and it doesn't look good.
Graph here
Results - 38.27 DPS (for reference, the other two chains are in the 41-44 range)
There are a few reasons that it falls short. The purpose of this chain was to both maximize -res and to create well timed bursts of -res that coincide with shout and scream. If you look at the graph though, scream's debuff falls barely short of wrapping around to affect shout. What gives? Two reasons.
One: This chain was created before arcanatime. The original numbers for this chain assumed shorter cast times which help to stack -res.
Two: The inaccuracies of my graph which I mentioned before affect this chain more than the others . This chain relies on the debuffs being precisely timed in order to work. I am almost positive that, in reality, if you used scream-shriek-shout then the scream's debuff would last long enough to affect shout. My graph says otherwise because it assumes scream's debuff begins 1/5 of the way in and the damage from shout is not hitting until the very end. Personal experience and eyeballing leads me to guess that scream's debuff begins 1/3 of the way through the animation, most attacks land their damage 1/2 of the way through their animation, and shout's damage comes 2/3 of the way through.
Unless someone becomes obsessive and researches the exact frame of animation at which sonic blasts release their projectiles, I think this is the best that can be done for now.
By the way, that 40.27 written at the bottom is what the chain's DPS would have been if shout had recieved scream's debuff. Not bad for a chain that includes an attack that does 7 damage.
BUMP
Updated 10/22
I was wondering, my Traps/Sonic has 185% global recharge (perma hasten). Given i have 95% recharge in the attacks = 280% recharge. Lets say I also go nerve for 40% more recharge (2/3 not affected by ed cap) = +305% recharge. What would be the best attack chain?
If you have an apocalypse proc in shriek then your best chain will be shriek-scream back and forth. If not, then you want the standard shriek-scream-shriek-shout combo. Replace shout with electric fence if needed.
Yes, have the proc in shriek, but will the recharge be enough to run shriek/scream gaplessly?
No, that chain is impossible to run gaplessly. On paper it'll still be superior though, even with the gap.
Thanks for the info! By the way, I currently have Cardiac slotted (needed for AV soloing with current build), and then "just" have 185 global recharge +95 in scream (=280). I have the proc slotted in scream not shriek, but i guess that doesnt really matter? With my current setup is it still the best chain?
I plan on making a cold / sonic defender for debuffing AVs for teams. Reading this thread made me want to do the calculations and figure out exactly what chain is the best. Here's my build, modified after reading this thread and doing my calculations:
Code:
My first step in analyzing the sonic debuff was to figure out the Arcanatime. That ensured I could produce accurate results, based on someone who presses the next attack button while the current one is activating. Next, I divided the debuff duration for each attack by the Arcanatime-modified activation time. This produced something I would call a debuff efficiency. It basically determines how many attacks you can squeeze in while the debuffs are on the critter. The most efficient one was Screech, by far. Look at the spreadsheet to see the numbers for the rest of the attacks.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1592;756;1512;HEX;| |78DAA594596F125114C7EF5028B294A540F745BAD896D611D29AB83C182D756901B| |16DEA92B638C2B49D88330430B16F7E007D704B5DD237D767B7189FF445DFD5174D| |8C7E0097C40F80E79E73019B797402FFDF70EE7FCE726786E4A5B89BB1CB0798E49| |9CC2BA55226AEAEA87A4E2DDA92CAAA966576C65877359639747165459E34F2B94C| |DCB8A0E94A5933F4AEDAEAACA2AFAA3979CED0B56CE660B9AC64CFFB8FE96B6A51D| |5CB72F5C499368CBC3C5750D59C174F13AA021797D6B482BBFABBA0E9ABCDF8635E| |CDAB05A358C64AC1A9829695D3A5F5EC1A14482AA5B25A5C6F830677C377C6C2C45| |1B1B090C4588C597C086B00F1B96EB0B20DC010B3DE4638EF20DC7709F71009B04B| |6497A430C37C842FB0D220123550220F25F250221F25F251A224D86DA2311B35D64| |88D3552632930D8C9D0609FC7D0B6394212E14C21FAC0E490289163145B69DE82E3| |90C8250C2EAA14A44A41AAD40F199AC8C09A1C161EFA0AEA15C3786998111A2642C| |3446898080D9306BB5FF4EAA7AA6D5B30407BE4874A01D14A805A69A1565AA89500| |184264B085EE632B3B1E101E121E21861E139E208270552B9567AD9B100AB013A0E| |D14B2B5BFC150C753ECA1E319A2E73922FC82F012F10D8C9D62ECCE05CCDD759270| |0AD1739A7006D10275BBA95BA99BC61908226661BD171F948AB5F71A9AB75F25DC2| |2DC44846F20BE83F689BA7DD318EA9F21240849C4400A31087507C5BC83B4B31FE0| |D11B161986E3E81A9B42EC3C4C3842388AF804F65171234627B0E5B128611CF1075| |E7F59E49315BC66D722E12C6119115B427C847C51F13447DF6386D85BC23B4497B5| |F69AC1070E963045D2D6DABBC5248CA4B887DAFCAFE395BB5ACB31EB049DE792E6B| |2C06591CB1297652E0A97735CB25C2AAF6B577BF7F086F672D9C7653F97900FE40A| |77DA5D202E2E6E2E4D5C3C5CBC5C7C5C025C3AB86C72A9387CB57F8DCA0FC82149F| |FCEFFD314F9558F48D2B4C45FBEA105DCE1DFF5158BB4817765E43A811EB2A869C3| |23A648CC14993045C64D91FA46FF05BEFE36B6| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
My conclusion was that the most efficient attack chain for debuffing is Screech >> Shriek >> Scream >> Shout. I went for perma-hasten in my build and easily met the required recharge times. I needed the best recharge times I could get so I could try to keep my cold debuffs on the AV as much as possible.
Here is the spreadsheet:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CNn6r5AE
cool beanz - keep posting your chains (including required recharge times that does with the chains) and the applications/usage for them....
this weekend, i'll try to rework the OP to integrate the information presented thru the threads