Something odd going on with GMs?
By
Catwhoorg,
Posted on: 2009-10-06 06:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Because Kraken's natural level is like 14, while Jack's is like 30 or 35.
GMs have levels, just like normal mobs. They have specially coded behavior that makes most effects scale so that anyone attacking them appears to be their level, and vice versa. Behind the scenes, though, Jack has higher stats because he's higher level.
Besides HP, GMs have a variation of the "purple triangles of doom" we see on AVs, and that's what gives them most of their effect resistances. This resistance scales by level - a level 50 GM (or AV) has vastly more resistance to things like toHit debuffs than a level 15 one.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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So the Power Analyzer is showing innacurate results and Kraken would actually regenerate more that is shown?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Because Kraken's natural level is like 14, while Jack's is like 30 or 35.
GMs have levels, just like normal mobs. They have specially coded behavior that makes most effects scale so that anyone attacking them appears to be their level, and vice versa. |
Still curious though of Krakens lack of mez protection and debuff resistance compared to Jack.
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I know for a fact that the power analyzer doesn't properly show mez protection for things like GMs/AVs/Monsters.
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Originally Posted by TRTerror
So the Power Analyzer is showing innacurate results and Kraken would actually regenerate more that is shown?
Still curious though of Krakens lack of mez protection and debuff resistance compared to Jack. |
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I don't know why you think it would be wrong. He has lower HP with the same regeneration % per second. That means he regenerates fewer HP/second. That's not wrong. It's a natural effect of being lower level.|
Originally Posted by TRTerror
So the Power Analyzer is showing innacurate results and Kraken would actually regenerate more that is shown?
|
Quote:
| Still curious though of Krakens lack of mez protection and debuff resistance compared to Jack. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Since no one hit this, I'm pretty sure that the RV AVs were dropped to lvl 50 from 54.
| Also as a note i did the rv heroes a couple of weeks ago and they were muuuch easier |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.
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Then i must i have misunderstood how gm scaling works. I have always thought they scale to vwhatever level you are.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't know why you think it would be wrong. He has lower HP with the same regeneration % per second. That means he regenerates fewer HP/second. That's not wrong. It's a natural effect of being lower level.
Most mez protection scales with level. Look at the stats on toggle mez prot powers on your own characters while you change your level slider. |
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Yes. There was no patch note for it. Honestly, given how ridiculous their mezzes are under PvP rules, I'm happy it was changed, but I don't know if it was intentional.
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Originally Posted by MutantX_7
Since no one hit this, I'm pretty sure that the RV AVs were dropped to lvl 50 from 54.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
When you attack them, the power is scaled to be as if you were the GM's level. When the GM attacks you, the attack is scaled to be as if the GM is your level. Nothing else changes.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
In terms of the damage you do to them, or they to you this is essentially correct.|
Originally Posted by TRTerror
Then i must i have misunderstood how gm scaling works. I have always thought they scale to vwhatever level you are.
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In terms of some of their other factors, such as HP, this is an intrinsic property related to their 'level.
It is this reason why at Halloween, peopel tended to Hunt Eochai in lower level zones, Such as Talos to spawn a Jack rather than PI. The Eochai (Talos) was more vulnerable to debuffs and had lower HP than the Eochai (PI)
Winter Lords certainly used to have a similar effect, the AP/galaxy ones were much easier to take down.
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Ahh thanks for clearing that up.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
When you attack them, the power is scaled to be as if you were the GM's level. When the GM attacks you, the attack is scaled to be as if the GM is your level. Nothing else changes.
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Seems you learn something new every day, I never knew they scaled like that!
Nice information 
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Close. GMs hit you as if they are your level. If you're higher than the GM's natural level, you hit them as if you're their level. If you're lower than their level, you hit them as if they are 1 level higher than you, which means 90% effectiveness.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
When you attack them, the power is scaled to be as if you were the GM's level. When the GM attacks you, the attack is scaled to be as if the GM is your level. Nothing else changes.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Interesting. I never knew that. Then again, I can't remember the last time I took on an over-level GM. I know I've done it, but very rarely.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It could be down to IOs not working in PvP zones that they are now easier but having said that, there was still no real need to drop them from 54 to 50..Atleast I can't see a problem.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yes. There was no patch note for it. Honestly, given how ridiculous their mezzes are under PvP rules, I'm happy it was changed, but I don't know if it was intentional.
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I'm curious, is there a table of GM's and their respective levels? (I couldn't find it in Paragon wiki.)|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Because Kraken's natural level is like 14, while Jack's is like 30 or 35.
GMs have levels, just like normal mobs. They have specially coded behavior that makes most effects scale so that anyone attacking them appears to be their level, and vice versa. Behind the scenes, though, Jack has higher stats because he's higher level. Besides HP, GMs have a variation of the "purple triangles of doom" we see on AVs, and that's what gives them most of their effect resistances. This resistance scales by level - a level 50 GM (or AV) has vastly more resistance to things like toHit debuffs than a level 15 one. |
There's discussion in another forum about what archetypes might be able to defeat GM's solo (without inspirations or temporary powers, given base DPS figures) and I think the level of the GM may figure into this.
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Just curious (again) checking into the Paragon wiki article on this. It states:|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Close. GMs hit you as if they are your level. If you're higher than the GM's natural level, you hit them as if you're their level. If you're lower than their level, you hit them as if they are 1 level higher than you, which means 90% effectiveness.
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# If you are a higher level than the Giant Monster, you will do damage to it as if you were its level.
# If you are a lower level than the Giant Monster, you will do damage to it as if it was one level lower than you.
The wording is slightly different from what you stated (lower instead of higher in the case of your being a lower level than the GM), but perhaps the net effect is the same. If you are doing damage as if it were one level lower than you (as it reads in wiki), does this (still) mean less effective damage than if you are doing damage equal to its level?
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I'm pulling this mostly from memory, as it's been awhile since I did a lot of GM testing.|
Originally Posted by perwira
I'm curious, is there a table of GM's and their respective levels? (I couldn't find it in Paragon wiki.)
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Paladin - Level 9
Kraken - Level 14
Babbage - Level 19
Lusca - Level 25
Adamastor - Level 29
Sally - Varies, level 28-30 IIRC
Eochai and Jack (Croatoa) - Varies, Levels 30-33
Eochai and Jack (Halloween) Varies, but usually levels divisible by 5 at the top of the zone level range (e.g. Talos level 30, Hollows level 15)
Jurassik - Level 39
I never got around to checking out Kronos, but it's often been said that it's level 49. And I don't play redside, so no clue on the GMs over there.
It's pretty easy to test these days as long as you're higher level then the GM. First, pick an attack, one that the GM takes full damage from (no resists or weaknesses, check Culex's resistance spreadsheet). Hit the GM with it and check the combat log to see how much damage was done. Then check the real numbers and move the slider down until the damage number matches the damage you did, or is close enough that it's just a rounding difference. That should be the level of the GM. Obviously, it best works if you character your testing with is level 50.
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It is as one level lower, at least last I checked. If you're level 15 and you attack Lusca, you'll do damage as if Lusca is level 14. A bit more damage than against an even level enemy. But still less than if you were the same or higher level than the GM.
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Originally Posted by perwira
Just curious (again) checking into the Paragon wiki article on this. It states:
# If you are a higher level than the Giant Monster, you will do damage to it as if you were its level. # If you are a lower level than the Giant Monster, you will do damage to it as if it was one level lower than you. The wording is slightly different from what you stated (lower instead of higher in the case of your being a lower level than the GM), but perhaps the net effect is the same. If you are doing damage as if it were one level lower than you (as it reads in wiki), does this (still) mean less effective damage than if you are doing damage equal to its level? |
Global @StarGeek
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Originally Posted by StarGeek
I'm pulling this mostly from memory, as it's been awhile since I did a lot of GM testing.
Paladin - Level 9 Kraken - Level 14 Babbage - Level 19 Lusca - Level 25 Adamastor - Level 29 Sally - Varies, level 28-30 IIRC Eochai and Jack (Croatoa) - Varies, Levels 30-33 Eochai and Jack (Halloween) Varies, but usually levels divisible by 5 at the top of the zone level range (e.g. Talos level 30, Hollows level 15) Jurassik - Level 39 |
Sally is strictly speaking a Monster not a GM but as she has no attacks and only one HP it doesn't really make a lot of difference.
Does the level for Babbage apply to both the Boomtown version and the one spawned from Psynapse?
There are a few other absences - off the top of my head Hami (OK its Hami class not a GM presumably lvl 50), the DE monsters in the Hive/Monkey Island, Hydra, Crystal Titan
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
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Neither Hami nor the DE count as Giant Monsters. Indeed, the DE are tagged simply "Monster". The distinction is that they don't level scale. I am pretty sure they are level 50, since they all do more damage to anyone who isn't level 50. That's Hami too.
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Originally Posted by Gaia
There are a few other absences - off the top of my head Hami (OK its Hami class not a GM presumably lvl 50), the DE monsters in the Hive/Monkey Island, Hydra, Crystal Titan
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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True, I just threw that in since its level is hidden as well, and some people might like to know.|
Originally Posted by Gaia
Sally is strictly speaking a Monster not a GM but as she has no attacks and only one HP it doesn't really make a lot of difference.
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edit: Oh yeah, the GM code also applies to Sally. This allows a level 1 a reasonable chance to hit and defeat Sally. Otherwise they would only have a 5% chance to be able to defeat her.
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| Does the level for Babbage apply to both the Boomtown version and the one spawned from Psynapse? |
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| There are a few other absences - off the top of my head Hami (OK its Hami class not a GM presumably lvl 50), the DE monsters in the Hive/Monkey Island, Hydra, Crystal Titan |
The Hydra and the Crystal Titan are level 42, though I don't know if their level would get modified by difficulty or not.
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And the reason they are different is very simple.
Until I16 you could run into Kraken as early as level 7. Jack you run into in the mid-20s. It would be colossally unfair for Kraken to be as strong as Jack when he's being fought by level 7's.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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StarGeek is correct; I had the direction backwards |
Originally Posted by StarGeek
It is as one level lower, at least last I checked. If you're level 15 and you attack Lusca, you'll do damage as if Lusca is level 14. A bit more damage than against an even level enemy. But still less than if you were the same or higher level than the GM.
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(So, rather than 90% effectiveness like I said before, it's 111% effectiveness)
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Been running about with a Power Analyzer only found Jack and Kraken. Why is Kraken so much weaker than Jack?
Is it some weirdness going on with the zones and ssk? Also as a note i did the rv heroes a couple of weeks ago and they were muuuch easier than before.
All screens on a 41 defender
Kraken
Jack