Recluse Debuffing STF'rs?
By
ArcticFahx,
Posted on: 2009-10-03 10:09 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
I know the following, for what it's worth:
Recluse does debuff defense with at least one of his attacks
Recluse gets a tohit buff from the towers (blue I believe)
People have told me that 75% is the amount of defense needed to floor his chance of hitting you with that tower up. However that assumes he never debuffs your defense, so a bit more is good.
I don't know much about the knockback situation.
Just looking at it in general, I'll give you what I think
1) The KB problem. As far as I know when a person's KB protection is 0 or higher he isn't being knocked back. Most KB powers give you a very short negative -KB protection that sends you flying, which means that with a KB that's powerful enough your KB protection will go into negatives for a short amount of time as seen in pic 1.
2) The def debuff was a lot easier. If you look at the base defense (the top defense value) you'll see this:
Arm Lash - -57.60% from Lord Recluse.
Hope this helped.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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I firmly beleive the KB Problems areassociated with the lack of Repel Protection in Fire, Dark, Ice and Electric tankers.|
Originally Posted by Kahlan_
I know the following, for what it's worth:
Recluse does debuff defense with at least one of his attacks Recluse gets a tohit buff from the towers (blue I believe) People have told me that 75% is the amount of defense needed to floor his chance of hitting you with that tower up. However that assumes he never debuffs your defense, so a bit more is good. I don't know much about the knockback situation. |
The other problem is that the ToHitt buff from the tower (Red I believe) combined with the -Def from LR's attacks are making Ice and Shield tankers hard as hell to run STF's with. More Tests to come tonight. Pictures posted soon.
Good to see you workin Hard Khalan, keep up your wonderful work.
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This doesn't hold water when Invuln, WP, Stone and Shield tanks dont suffer penalties with only 10 points of KB Protection. The only common denominator is the ten points of "Repel" Protection they have, that separates them into an elite group of tankers able to stand toe to toe with LR. Even when being hit for 27+ thier 10 Points of Repel Protection keeps them on thier feet.|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
Just looking at it in general, I'll give you what I think
1) The KB problem. As far as I know when a person's KB protection is 0 or higher he isn't being knocked back. Most KB powers give you a very short negative -KB protection that sends you flying, which means that with a KB that's powerful enough your KB protection will go into negatives for a short amount of time as seen in pic 1. 2) The def debuff was a lot easier. If you look at the base defense (the top defense value) you'll see this: Arm Lash - -57.60% from Lord Recluse. Hope this helped. |
My primary goal is to get Fire, Dark, Ice and Electric Tankers 10 Points of Repel Protection added through future updates, and patches.
Below you can see that Recluse hit my shield tank for over 230 Knockback. Although this didnt knock me down because of resistance to Knockback or maybe the 30 points or Repel protection, I still find it weird that the KB could go that high!!
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Not a valid comparison. Unyielding, for example, not only gives 10 points of knockback protection, it also gives TEN THOUSAND PERCENT resistance to knockback.
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Originally Posted by EverStryke
This doesn't hold water when Invuln, WP, Stone and Shield tanks dont suffer penalties with only 10 points of KB Protection.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I agree, and understand your point. The problem we face is 2 fold. NCSOft never gave Fire, Dark and Electric tanks any KB Resistance at all. The reason is because they didn't want to give them any KB Protection. And the reason for that is because KB Resistance and KB Protection are so tightly associated.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Not a valid comparison. Unyielding, for example, not only gives 10 points of knockback protection, it also gives TEN THOUSAND PERCENT resistance to knockback.
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Why did NCSoft Make 2 different catagories of KB defense (Resistance and Protection)
What is the reason for 2 Protections/Resistances that should encompass the same problem?
Now let's go over some Pics and ask some more questions...
This picture clearly shows Vengeance being cast on my Fire tanker. It provides 100 Points of KB Protection, and 10 Points of Repel Protection. It also Provides "Resistance" to effects. This gives it what the WP/invuln/Stone/Shield tankers already innatly have. Why is Vengeance the ONLY power Heroside that provides The 10,000+ points of Resistance to others for cases like the STF.
In the picture above, it clearly shows that my KB Protection Fluctuates to 32, for no reason. Why? I was not being buffed for KB Protection by anyone, it just fluctuated North for no reason.
Knowing that the towers were down during this Pic, this prooves the problems we face are coming from Recluse himself, not the towers as I first believed. Standing next to him my KB Protection fluctuated Up and Down during the fight. It prooves there's a problem here. Primarily with Recluse himself debuffing players.
Another Point to notice is that the picture shows that the KB Protection is 32 Points, but the Numbers buffing my toon are only adding up to 28 Points. Does NCSoft not program the game to add properly? Below is more instances of this...
28 Points, and the actual KB Protection only adds up to 16
32 Points, But my toon only has 3 Steadfast and 1 Karma KB slotted in it. So it doubles the KB Protection? Then Debuffs it? WTF?!!
Now onto another Issue reguarding KB Protection. Understanding that The KB Resistance that Fire,Dark and Elec do NOT have. This pic shows that KB Protection is at 32, and Recluse hits for 25.9. Then I get put on my Butt. Showing that even purchasing the equivilant of 25-40 Million Influence worth of Market Value KB IO's you waste your time making Fire, Dark and Electric tanks because they can't do High Level Content without being tossed around like a rag doll.
One last pic, this one verifiably shows that the game, or recluse is Causing KB Protections NOT to be counted right. Unless someone can proove to me that 12+4+8 somehow equal 36!!???
The next pic is just to keep the keel even in this duscussion. It definitivly shows me sitting at 32 points of KB Protection (Finally adding up when the buffs are counted in, I guess NCSoft can count when it wants to) and 16 Points of Repel Protection given to me by 2 Single Stacked ID's. I never got put on my butt while I had this on me. Once again making me think my original theory of "Repel" being the problem. The problem with this is that ID gives you KB Protection as well as Repel Protection. So there is no actual way to test any further unless Devs do it, because You would have to remove The KB Protection from ID to give an actual test of this theory. Vengeance provides the same problem due to it's 100 points of KB Protection.
In closing I have one last photo, for those of you that think that there are no problems with the STF or Recluse in General. It shows my Electric Tanker having it's KB Protection Debuffed to -6.3. Why? KB Protection, or Resistance, doesn't matter. It shows that you CAN be debuffed by recluse. And not normal Debuffs, Status effect Debuffs.
In closing, I think the Repel Protection needs to be tested by Devs many more time to verify my original theory of Repel being the problem, but I understand and do not reject that the KB Resistance or lack there of is the problem. With KB Resistance in Fire, Dark, Ice and Elec they would be able to do the High level content without getting owned.
I want it known, that ONLY Vengeance gives Fire, Dark and Electric KB RESISTANCE. This means They all have a lowered and extremely slim chance of getting the MoSTF badges that they may want. This isn't fair NCSoft. We expect to use tanks as tanks. The definition of a tank is to be able to stand toe to toe with things such as recluse. If you don't let us do that.... why did you let the tanker sets have Fire, Dark, Ice and Electric? Is it just some sick joke you guys have in the office?
Unfair. Give Fire, Dark and Electric Tankers KB Resistance or Repel Protection. Whatever it is that will let us stand toe to toe with Recluse for once.
(I withdrawl my prior stance on Ice tankers, they do have KB Resistance, but no Repel Protection.)***
I was in a STF with an empath and for the first time I was requested to use CM on the stone tank verses LR and GW. Is this some thing new or just some thing other tanks tried to work around? Was popping back and forth between towers and the tank during that phase.
Life was simpler before I gained some knowledge
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GW has a Huge Mag Hold, or intangable. The CM helps to stave it off, but nothing works perfectly. CM While fighting against Recluse is nice, because if not he can Drain your Endurance or he can spawn baddies that ate 54 Bosses and they do massive stun. When you get a Mob of them around you you get a real problem because they can detoggle even the toughest tanker.
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Originally Posted by leafchaser
I was in a STF with an empath and for the first time I was requested to use CM on the stone tank verses LR and GW. Is this some thing new or just some thing other tanks tried to work around? Was popping back and forth between towers and the tank during that phase.
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I'm not positive about this, but I think what you may be seeing when your buff numbers don't add up is the stack as the buff refreshes itself. For instance, when you have 26 KB protection, but only have 12 + 4 showing: That seems like the 12 is stacking with it self for a second, giving 12+12+4 = 26. This wouldn't show as a second source in the buff list, since it's still from you, but might account for some of the fluctuations in your values.
Shortspark: 50 Fire/Fire tanker
Emberblast: 50 Fire/Fire blaster
Jessie Inferno: 50 Fire/SD scrapper
a wizard: 50 Rad/Sonic defender
The Nemesis Plothole: 50 StJ/Reg scrapper
Jessie Inferno: 50 Fire/SD scrapper
a wizard: 50 Rad/Sonic defender
The Nemesis Plothole: 50 StJ/Reg scrapper
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oh im aware it's stacking. The main question is .... why? Does this proove that Recluse is bugged? It would help to explain a lot of things. I await castle's response in this post.
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Originally Posted by Shortspark
I'm not positive about this, but I think what you may be seeing when your buff numbers don't add up is the stack as the buff refreshes itself. For instance, when you have 26 KB protection, but only have 12 + 4 showing: That seems like the 12 is stacking with it self for a second, giving 12+12+4 = 26. This wouldn't show as a second source in the buff list, since it's still from you, but might account for some of the fluctuations in your values.
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That might be YOUR definition, but it's not *THE* definition. Different tank sets are suited to different enemy types.|
Originally Posted by EverStryke
I want it known, that ONLY Vengeance gives Fire, Dark and Electric KB RESISTANCE. This means They all have a lowered and extremely slim chance of getting the MoSTF badges that they may want. This isn't fair NCSoft. We expect to use tanks as tanks. The definition of a tank is to be able to stand toe to toe with things such as recluse.
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As for the MoSTF badge, totally bogus argument. I've been on runs with 2 tanks. I've been on runs with no tanks. (FYI, easiest STF I ever saw had NO TANK.) I've been on runs that had a kheld on the team - people had complained there would be prejudice against them due to the possibility of a cyst spawning at a bad spot. ANYONE can get the MoSTF badge. AT and powersets only seemed like a big deal at the very beginning before anyone had worked out tactics.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I never said it wasn't possible. We both know it is. But with extremly experienced players either leading or on the team help that. The purpose of this post is to get things changed for the better, and to explain why Recluse is debuffing Players. So let get things back on track here instead of flying opinions..
Why is Recluse Debuffing players Status effect Numbers?
Why are numbers Fluctuating?
When is it going to be fixed?
So let get things back on track here instead of flying opinions..
Let's. Just remember you started it. 
Why is Recluse Debuffing players Status effect Numbers?
My guess would be, because he's 'supposed to'. We've never been told what the towers do (or what his powers are) so there's no reason to think this is a bug.
Why are numbers Fluctuating?
IO's do that. Since it's for very short durations, and in the players favor, I don't think this is a significant issue.
When is it going to be fixed?
Probably never. The first issue may well be 'working as intended' and the second isn't really a problem.
They haven't done anything about the tower repairmen, or even acknowledged that it's a 'bug'. They have only acknowledged that their behavior changed due to a change to the enemy AI.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Unacceptable
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
So let get things back on track here instead of flying opinions..
Let's. Just remember you started it. Why is Recluse Debuffing players Status effect Numbers? My guess would be, because he's 'supposed to'. We've never been told what the towers do (or what his powers are) so there's no reason to think this is a bug. Why are numbers Fluctuating? IO's do that. Since it's for very short durations, and in the players favor, I don't think this is a significant issue. When is it going to be fixed? Probably never. The first issue may well be 'working as intended' and the second isn't really a problem. They haven't done anything about the tower repairmen, or even acknowledged that it's a 'bug'. They have only acknowledged that their behavior changed due to a change to the enemy AI. |
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Repairmen seem to be fixed in i16
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
When is it going to be fixed?
Probably never. The first issue may well be 'working as intended' and the second isn't really a problem. They haven't done anything about the tower repairmen, or even acknowledged that it's a 'bug'. They have only acknowledged that their behavior changed due to a change to the enemy AI. |
Yes, back to the opinions again.
Unacceptable to *YOU*. I did the STF just a few days ago and I thought it was fine. Even the repairmen aren't that big a deal, *IF* you know to expect it.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Really? hmm.... We never gave them a chance the other day. We had a ton of pets and a location-based AoE planted right on the tower.
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Originally Posted by NordBlast
Repairmen seem to be fixed in i16
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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It's not just IOs, but a great deal of powers in the game (like Invincibility, Against All Odds, etc.). This is a system issue that's been around from the very beginning and isn't likely to be fixed any time soon - especially not so long as its effect is minor (to the point of having virtually no impact on gameplay, so the Devs don't care) and beneficial to the player (so players don't care). So just treat your KB protection as 16, like it's supposed to be, and don't be surprised when you see your total hop around to various multiples of 4 up to 32, because that's just the doubling (which happens so fast and short that it doesn't quite synch up in the Real Numbers). In fact, the doubling disappears shorter than the duration of the knockback, which is why you will get knocked back by anything above mag 16, regardless of timing.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Why are numbers Fluctuating?
IO's do that. Since it's for very short durations, and in the players favor, I don't think this is a significant issue. |
LR is not debuffing your status protection in any way. What you're seeing is two things: fluctuating proc values, and a timing delay in the Real Numbers. The first is why you're getting changing values for your two procs. The second is why the KB Protection value doesn't always match the values of the individual things listed below.
For example, you have a picture where where you have the following:
KB Protection -6.9
Karma +4
Grounded +15.6
That's because, moments before, you were hit by an attack which had a component of KB of magnitude -26.5 and, if you do the math, 4+15.6-26.5=-6.9. And because of whatever timing delay is going on, the source of knockback disappears from the Real Numbers display of sources but remains in the totals.
I can't say I've noticed these timing delays anywhere else, so I wonder if it has to do with how kb is being processed in the back end.
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
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yet the numbers are the problem. Recluse is debuffing, and the numbers are skewing. None of the questions above have been answered by either Synapse or Castle. Sometimes the numbers never even added up correctly. Sometimes the numbers skewed. Why?|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Really? hmm.... We never gave them a chance the other day. We had a ton of pets and a location-based AoE planted right on the tower.
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This goes beyond the towers getting healed.
This goes beyond your inability to answer every question that was posed. It has to do with the game not following the rules it sets on us. If they give us "real numbers" why aren't they adding up? Why is recluse debuffing our status effect? If so when are developers going to be up front about it?
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Insightful. I am still waiting on Castle to Post here. But your insight was welcome and fresh.
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
It's not just IOs, but a great deal of powers in the game (like Invincibility, Against All Odds, etc.). This is a system issue that's been around from the very beginning and isn't likely to be fixed any time soon - especially not so long as its effect is minor (to the point of having virtually no impact on gameplay, so the Devs don't care) and beneficial to the player (so players don't care). So just treat your KB protection as 16, like it's supposed to be, and don't be surprised when you see your total hop around to various multiples of 4 up to 32, because that's just the doubling (which happens so fast and short that it doesn't quite synch up in the Real Numbers). In fact, the doubling disappears shorter than the duration of the knockback, which is why you will get knocked back by anything above mag 16, regardless of timing.
LR is not debuffing your status protection in any way. What you're seeing is two things: fluctuating proc values, and a timing delay in the Real Numbers. The first is why you're getting changing values for your two procs. The second is why the KB Protection value doesn't always match the values of the individual things listed below. For example, you have a picture where where you have the following: KB Protection -6.9 Karma +4 Grounded +15.6 That's because, moments before, you were hit by an attack which had a component of KB of magnitude -26.5 and, if you do the math, 4+15.6-26.5=-6.9. And because of whatever timing delay is going on, the source of knockback disappears from the Real Numbers display of sources but remains in the totals. I can't say I've noticed these timing delays anywhere else, so I wonder if it has to do with how kb is being processed in the back end. |
Also, Lord Recluse has the following attacks (not counting resists and summons):
[Lord Recluse.Channelgun]
[Lord Recluse.Suppression]
[Lord Recluse.Energy Punch]
[Lord Recluse.Energy Smash]
[Lord Recluse.Spider Strike]
[Lord Recluse.Slice]
[Lord Recluse.Arm Lash]
Of those, Energy Smash is knockup, and Spider Strike and Suppression are both knock down (with Suppression being a massive knock down). Energy Punch is a mag 3 stun. Channelgun is -50% End and -200% Recovery. Slice is lethal and toxic damage. Arm Lash is -Defense (there's your Defense Debuff).
The four towers, as listed at Paragon Wiki, give the following:
Red: +KB Magnitude, +Stun Duration, +105% Damage (Smash, Lethal, Energy), +105% Resistance (Smash, Lethal, Energy)
Orange: +200% Defense (all), +17.7 Protection (Hold, Disorient, Immobilize)
Green: Healing, +150% MaxHP, +2000% Regeneration
Blue: +30% ToHit, +1000% Recharge, +200% Run Speed
The blue tower lets him get through defense easily, with Arm Lash tearing through afterwards. The red tower is why he has such crazy high knockback powers, making him hit anybody without KB Resistance.
And to top it all off, at +4, you're looking at a 1.44x modifier (or 1.55x at +5) to all his damage, kb magnitudes, stun durations, and defense debuffs.
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
Quote:
All a good study, and many thanks for putting that info here. Got some of it through AE last nite. It explained the KB that exceeded 200 points in limelifes pic. But still, that's massive. understandable since it IS recluse.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
Also, Lord Recluse has the following attacks (not counting resists and summons):
[Lord Recluse.Channelgun] [Lord Recluse.Suppression] [Lord Recluse.Energy Punch] [Lord Recluse.Energy Smash] [Lord Recluse.Spider Strike] [Lord Recluse.Slice] [Lord Recluse.Arm Lash] Of those, Energy Smash is knockup, and Spider Strike and Suppression are both knock down (with Suppression being a massive knock down). Energy Punch is a mag 3 stun. Channelgun is -50% End and -200% Recovery. Slice is lethal and toxic damage. Arm Lash is -Defense (there's your Defense Debuff). The four towers, as listed at Paragon Wiki, give the following: Red: +KB Magnitude, +Stun Duration, +105% Damage (Smash, Lethal, Energy), +105% Resistance (Smash, Lethal, Energy) Orange: +200% Defense (all), +17.7 Protection (Hold, Disorient, Immobilize) Green: Healing, +150% MaxHP, +2000% Regeneration Blue: +30% ToHit, +1000% Recharge, +200% Run Speed The blue tower lets him get through defense easily, with Arm Lash tearing through afterwards. The red tower is why he has such crazy high knockback powers, making him hit anybody without KB Resistance. And to top it all off, at +4, you're looking at a 1.44x modifier (or 1.55x at +5) to all his damage, kb magnitudes, stun durations, and defense debuffs. |
My primary problem still is and will be the fluctuating Real Numbers and the apparent Debuff of status effect. And on top of that the apparent inability to buff Repel Protection without buffing KB Protection so we as players can experiement this problem.
It lays in develpers hands now. Castle oh Castle where are you?
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Have you PM'd him with this thread link?
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Originally Posted by EverStryke
Insightful. I am still waiting on Castle to Post here. But your insight was welcome and fresh.
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Running numbers from STF's over the last week. I have been worried about the Repel Protection (or lack there of) on Fire, Dark, Ice and Electric tankers. This makes them rely on Vengeance or ID, neither are fun to have to make perma, but possible. That issue aside I noticed something interesting....
Recluse is seemingly Debuffing status'
In the furst Picture I posted on the "Grounded not working properly" thread, it showed that my KB Protection was Debuffed to -6.3 (Picture below)
Last nite we took a shield tanker to test some problems we had with Defensive Based tankers Getting completly owned in Recluse Fights. Our theory was that they were getting Debuffed by either Recluses attacks or by the towers Buffing Recluse and that was somehow Debuffing the tanker near him. Running the Shield tanker we were able to pull these numbers...
This clearly shows that Recluse has Debuffed The Shield tanker opposing him. Question... Does Recluse Debuff Defense?
Theory 1. To Hitt buffs from the Towers make the Defense Based Tankers less then fun to run, so stop trying (Still doesn't explain Defense Debuff, only accuracy and tohitt buffs on the AV we are facing)
Theory 2. The Tower is Buffing Recluse and the buff is an "AOE - Ally" buff, that is somehow turning into a "Debuff" to anyone near Recluse. (This explains both the Defense Debuff and the KB Protection Debuff shown in Pic One using the Electric Tank.)
I go with theory 2. Simply because there is no other explanation of the Debuffs we see in these pics. "IF" the problem is that either Recluse himself or the Towers Buffing him are creating a Debuff Aura, area, or direct Debuff to players, then why? I have never seen anything in this game that Debuffs KB Protection.
My Solution...
For Fire, Dark, Ice and Electric Tanks (Add in Ten Points of Repel Protection into a Resistance or Mez Toggle for)
For Fire, Dark , Ice and Electric Scrappers (Add in a similar repel protection but not as High as tankers, maybe 8 Points, or the full 10 points if Devs feel nice)
Lower the mag of KB from LR's attacks in STF's.
Find out WHY the Defense Debuff, and KB Protection is being Debuffed. Remove it.
I understand the Red tower is a pain, and once it is down the rest is a breeze, but the Debuffs we are seeing during the red tower being up is causing me to beleive the towers are specifically bugged. I theorize they are specifically doing an AOE Ally Buff to LR and is in turn debuffing the tanker in it's aura.
The only other explaination is that Recluse himself somemhow "Debuffs" Defense and other status effect Resistances/Protections while next to him, or his attacks are providing Debuffs directly onto the tankers themselves.
The LR doing debuff theory doesn't hold water when you are dealing with Invuln, Stone or WP though, because they don't suffer the same penalties as far as I see.
More testing to come, I will keep this post updated. We are using an Ice tanker tonight to verify things that relate to Defense Debuff during the LR fight.