If you want it, take it.
I have Fly on my soft-capped Invul/EM because it's by far the most convenient travel power; for me, that's more important than the small defense boost I'd get from CJ. I don't have Hover, either; I don't like "Hover tanking" and I DO like Air Sup.
You certainly CAN soft-cap most tank builds without CJ or Hover, you'll just need to select your sets carefully for defense bonuses.
However, I don't think Maneuvers is worth getting just for the defense, especially since you can get a similar amount of defense from set bonuses for no end cost at all and without taking up a power slot.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
I've seen a few tanks with flight. My usual first response is to laugh, then to shore up knowing there was going to be extra work for the rest of the team.
......
Once or twice though.. I was really surprised. I saw one guy who was so good at switching in and out of hover to use his crowd control powers, maneuver, etc... he made me want to try it myself.
I would suggest making a bind or a macro to easily turn hover on and off, which is what I usually do on any char I go the flight route on.
Personally, I prefer SJ.. but I think if you're diligent enough, you can swing flight.
Quote:
What makes you assume that Tanks that take Fly can't Tank?
|
Originally Posted by SilentZoe
I've seen a few tanks with flight. My usual first response is to laugh, then to shore up knowing there was going to be extra work for the rest of the team.
...... Once or twice though.. I was really surprised. I saw one guy who was so good at switching in and out of hover to use his crowd control powers, maneuver, etc... he made me want to try it myself. I would suggest making a bind or a macro to easily turn hover on and off, which is what I usually do on any char I go the flight route on. Personally, I prefer SJ.. but I think if you're diligent enough, you can swing flight. |
Quote:
Not really assuming they can't, just that *most* that i have seen can't. I never deny someone the chance to participate based on power choices. I actually love running into those seemingly rare cases where people do well with something I see as 'unconventional' to the general populace.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
What makes you assume that Tanks that take Fly can't Tank?
|
Blanket statistic really. I observe, I track information. It's just like most of the stalkers I have played with are pretty useless, but there are those who take the AT and really shine with it. I don't say "All X are morons", but it's more a case of.. prepare for the worst and hope for the best i guess
Quote:
Taking Fly as a travel power in no way locks you into using Hover in battle. A travel power just gets you to the fight, what really matters is how you tank when you get there.|
Originally Posted by SilentZoe
I've seen a few tanks with flight. My usual first response is to laugh, then to shore up knowing there was going to be extra work for the rest of the team.
...... Once or twice though.. I was really surprised. I saw one guy who was so good at switching in and out of hover to use his crowd control powers, maneuver, etc... he made me want to try it myself. I would suggest making a bind or a macro to easily turn hover on and off, which is what I usually do on any char I go the flight route on. Personally, I prefer SJ.. but I think if you're diligent enough, you can swing flight. |
Although I personally don't enjoy fighting while using Hover, and I wouldn't recommend it for sets with attacks that require being on the ground, you say yourself that it can work. Assuming that someone who takes Fly is going to be a sub-par tank is just baseless stereotyping.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
That's the thing.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Taking Fly as a travel power in no way locks you into using Hover in battle. A travel power just gets you to the fight, what really matters is how you tank when you get there.
Although I personally don't enjoy fighting while using Hover, and I wouldn't recommend it for sets with attacks that require being on the ground, you say yourself that it can work. |
With maneuvers, I would always have the +defense but I wouldn't be able to get Fly.
With hover, I would only use it when fighting AVs (where footstomp is not needed) and I would be able to get Fly.
SZ,
I'm taking flight as my travel and I sincerely hope no one on my team begrudges how I get to the mish. I'm not going to hover around during combat though. That seems really odd and, frankly, goofy.
Loved the "I don't mean to X, but X" statement. Those are always so funny when they pop up.
So, is tp or ss better? Jumping has CJ which keep the kb down, but that should be handled by a toggle [which CJ is actually.]
How is the way a Tank commutes making it inferior? I'm really curious how not having the other pools are better.
Quote:
No. Baseless sterotyping would be those people who toss it out as a 'rookie move' and refuse to team with a person before they know if they can use it or not. As I said, I never deny anyone the opportunity to show what they can do.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Taking Fly as a travel power in no way locks you into using Hover in battle. A travel power just gets you to the fight, what really matters is how you tank when you get there.
Although I personally don't enjoy fighting while using Hover, and I wouldn't recommend it for sets with attacks that require being on the ground, you say yourself that it can work. Assuming that someone who takes Fly is going to be a sub-par tank is just baseless stereotyping. |
I can only remark on what I have observed. Again, there is no "All of X are morons" with me, because unless I have seen 'all of X' I cannot say that they all are. I'm only remarking on those I have see, and most of them were.. not good at all. Was it because they took flight? Not always, but sometimes. Some just never learn how to use it to their advantage. Some use it very well to their advantage.
And I only spoke of hover because the OP mentioned it. I never said it they had to take it.
Quote:
Well funny thing is, I have quit teams when team leaders have refused to allow people on said team because of their power choices. This is not something I personally do, and these days I am usually leading a team, on a team one of my friends are leading, and they mostly have the same views i do on allowing everyone a fair chance.|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
SZ,
I'm taking flight as my travel and I sincerely hope no one on my team begrudges how I get to the mish. I'm not going to hover around during combat though. That seems really odd and, frankly, goofy. Loved the "I don't mean to X, but X" statement. Those are always so funny when they pop up. So, is tp or ss better? Jumping has CJ which keep the kb down, but that should be handled by a toggle [which CJ is actually.] How is the way a Tank commutes making it inferior? I'm really curious how not having the other pools are better. |
Again.. I only mention hover because the OP did. Personally I don't care how a tank gets to the mission, unless they're one of those who who refuses to get out of granite even to travel, has not taken TP to get around while in granite, and demands someone TPs them everywhere. I was commenting on use of flight pool in combat, specifically hover.
I don't check powers before teaming with people, so usually I notice their powers in battle. When you have teamed with 5 tanks who fly, and of those, 4 of them were stupid enough to FLY (Not hover, but actually FLY) during combat, with no thought to shut it off, and apparently no thought to reduce end use on fly, or perhaps any of their other powers, and run out of end in the middle of a fight, what would you do?
I do not assume anyone is bad at what they do until they show that they are. I laugh because I remember the morons of the past. I prepare for the worst because I do not feel that the team should suffer if one person happens to do something I have observed in the past. That's just how I am. I make myself ready to compensate for a potential hole that would not normally be on a team when I team with my SG and/or players I am accustomed to. It's the same thing I do on any PUG, whether or not there is someone on the team with questionable choices or not. Why? Because more often than not *in my experience* (and that is the key here) on a PUG with 2-7 people I don't know, at least one of them will be a moron. I compensate.
So why PUG? Because it challenges me as a player in a way that Master runs do not. I enjoy it. But again, it's a blanket statistic based on what I have observed.
I really never meant to say that all tanks who take fly are morons. I do not believe I said that. But I may not have explained my position well enough. I apologize if that is the case.
Oh, so you know that the tanks you've seen with Fly are a representative sample of all tanks with Fly? How would you even KNOW which tanks use Fly as a travel power if you don't notice how they get to the mission and they don't use Hover in combat?
Considering how unreliable participant observation can be, saying you're "just reporting what I've observed" doesn't change the fact that you're drawing conclusions from a very small and unrepresentative sample.
If you want to be helpful to the OP, talking about what you see as the relative advantages or disadvantages of Fly and SJ would actually be useful. Saying "Most of the tanks I've seen with Fly suck" is certainly not.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
I've taken flight for melee toons for concept and always regretted it (which is to say, it got in the way of actual gameplay). Thank goodness for Raptor Packs and dual builds.
My WP/SS is of the Superman mold. In one build, I take SS & Flight, LBE & Energy Torrent (super breath), and is less effective and a bit of a PotA to play compared to my 2nd build w/Leaping & Fireball. But then concept counts for a lot too, so again, thank goodness for dual builds.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
Yeah, I've been thinking about using two builds...one with Hover and Fly...one with Super Jump and Maneuvers.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
I've taken flight for melee toons for concept and always regretted it (which is to say, it got in the way of actual gameplay). Thank goodness for Raptor Packs and dual builds.
My WP/SS is of the Superman mold. In one build, I take SS & Flight, LBE & Energy Torrent (super breath), and is less effective and a bit of a PotA to play compared to my 2nd build w/Leaping & Fireball. But then concept counts for a lot too, so again, thank goodness for dual builds. |
The only "problem" with that is I plan to IO this character like crazy...and the influence needed to IO two builds is way too expensive.
I like to have one "overall" build.
Quote:
Why would it "get it the way of actual gameplay"? CJ does gives some additional mobility, but IME any advantage it gives in "actual gameplay" is very minor.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
I've taken flight for melee toons for concept and always regretted it (which is to say, it got in the way of actual gameplay). Thank goodness for Raptor Packs and dual builds.
|
However, I suppose it could be playstyle dependent. I know in my case, having CJ made very, very little difference in how I play my characters.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Just for the record...
I will have Combat Jumping in my build whether I take Hover and Fly or SJ and Maneuvers.
Quote:
I did not say that. And I said multiple times that it was just what I have seen. I also mentioned that I have seen it work, so I know that it can, and give a recommendation, based on what the OP stated.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Oh, so you know that the tanks you've seen with Fly are a representative sample of all tanks with Fly? How would you even KNOW which tanks use Fly as a travel power if you don't notice how they get to the mission and they don't use Hover in combat?
Considering how unreliable participant observation can be, saying you're "just reporting what I've observed" doesn't change the fact that you're drawing conclusions from a very small and unrepresentative sample. If you want to be helpful to the OP, talking about what you see as the relative advantages or disadvantages of Fly and SJ would actually be useful. Saying "Most of the tanks I've seen with Fly suck" is certainly not. |
I never said I drew any conclusions on anything. I believe you are reading something in my posts that was not intended when I wrote them. Again, i apologize if I do not explain myself well enough.
So. Flat out, advantages and disadvantages that I have seen? Don't use FLY while fighting. If intending to get hover, don't be afraid to use it, just learn to toggle it as needed so you can get the most out of your power choices, INCLUDING hover.
Saying I prefer SJ was just my opinion. Does my opinion really matter to the OP? It probably shouldn't. I do not claim to know everything about the game. I know what works for me and how I play.
Is there an overall combat advantage to jump over flight? Perhaps. It depends on the player. For me, CJ gives me more maneuverability in combat than hover, so I can cover more ground and manage my aggro better. To others it might not offer the same advantage.
Did that help better?
Quote:
Oh, if *that's* the case, take Air Sup/Fly instead. Air Sup can take the place of one of your SS attacks, like Punch or Haymaker.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
Just for the record...
I will have Combat Jumping in my build whether I take Hover and Fly or SJ and Maneuvers. |
Honestly, unless you really want to use Hover in battle, don't bother with it. You can easily make up the lost defense with set bonuses. The same goes double for Manuevers, since it has a relatively high endurance cost for the defense benefit it gives.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
I'm not a fan of Air Sup.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Oh, if *that's* the case, take Air Sup/Fly instead. Air Sup can take the place of one of your SS attacks, like Punch or Haymaker.
Honestly, unless you really want to use Hover in battle, don't bother with it. You can easily make up the lost defense with set bonuses. The same goes double for Manuevers, since it has a relatively high endurance cost for the defense benefit it gives. |
Like I said before regarding Hover...if I did take Flight I would most definitely get Hover as a prereq for an extra defense power...although I would only use it in situations where footstomp was not needed...which is mostly only AV fights (I would never use hover in regular battle).
Perhaps I should post the two builds in question.
Here is the proposed "Fly" build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Vitality: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(3), Heal-I(3), Aegis-ResDam(5), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(5), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(7)
Level 1: Jab -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), T'Death-Dam%(7), Zinger-Dam%(9), Mako-Dam%(9), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(29)
Level 2: Punch -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 4: Mind Over Body -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(15), ResDam-I(15)
Level 6: Fast Healing -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(17), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Numna-Heal(19), RgnTis-Regen+(19), RgnTis-Heal/EndRdx(21)
Level 8: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(23), GftotA-Run+(25)
Level 10: Rise to the Challenge -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(21), Numna-Heal/Rchg(23)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(25), P'Shift-EndMod(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(27)
Level 14: Swift -- Run-I(A), Run-I(48), Run-I(48)
Level 16: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(31), Numna-Heal/Rchg(31)
Level 18: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(31), GftotA-Run+(33), GftotA-Def(33), Ksmt-ToHit+(46)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(33), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(34), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(34), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(36), P'Shift-EndMod(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(37)
Level 24: Taunt -- Mocking-Rchg(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(50)
Level 26: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Rage -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(37), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(39), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(39), GSFC-Build%(39)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(40), GftotA-Run+(40)
Level 32: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(40), ResDam-I(42)
Level 35: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(42), GftotA-Run+(50)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dmg(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(42), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(43), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 41: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(45)
Level 44: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(45), GftotA-Run+(45), GftotA-Def(48)
Level 47: Strength of Will -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 49: Focused Accuracy -- GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(A), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A), Run-I(29), Run-I(46)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Here is the proposed "SJ and Maneuvers" build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Vitality: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(3), Heal-I(3), Aegis-ResDam(5), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(5), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(7)
Level 1: Jab -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), T'Death-Dam%(7), Zinger-Dam%(9), Mako-Dam%(9), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(29)
Level 2: Punch -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 4: Mind Over Body -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(15), ResDam-I(15)
Level 6: Fast Healing -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(17), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Numna-Heal(19), RgnTis-Regen+(19), RgnTis-Heal/EndRdx(21)
Level 8: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(23), GftotA-Run+(25)
Level 10: Rise to the Challenge -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(21), Numna-Heal/Rchg(23)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(25), P'Shift-EndMod(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(27)
Level 14: Swift -- Run-I(A), Run-I(48), Run-I(48)
Level 16: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(31), Numna-Heal/Rchg(31)
Level 18: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(31), GftotA-Run+(33), GftotA-Def(33), Ksmt-ToHit+(46)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(33), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(34), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(34), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(36), P'Shift-EndMod(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(37)
Level 24: Taunt -- Mocking-Rchg(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(50)
Level 26: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Rage -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(37), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(39), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(39), GSFC-Build%(39)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(40), GftotA-Run+(40)
Level 32: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(40), ResDam-I(42)
Level 35: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(42), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(45), GftotA-Run+(50)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dmg(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(42), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(43), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 41: Super Jump -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(45), GftotA-Run+(45), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 47: Strength of Will -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 49: Focused Accuracy -- GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(A), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A), Run-I(29), Run-I(46)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Quote:
Oh, hell, I'd laugh my *** off. I only hope they'd be the biggest Huge body types possible. Better if they did the bare chest thing. A real It's Raining Men moment.|
Originally Posted by SilentZoe
When you have teamed with 5 tanks who fly, and of those, 4 of them were stupid enough to FLY (Not hover, but actually FLY) during combat, with no thought to shut it off, and apparently no thought to reduce end use on fly, or perhaps any of their other powers, and run out of end in the middle of a fight, what would you do?
|
Quote:
| I do not assume anyone is bad at what they do until they show that they are. I laugh because I remember the morons of the past. I prepare for the worst because I do not feel that the team should suffer if one person happens to do something I have observed in the past. That's just how I am. |
Quote:
| So why PUG? |
RE: Builds
Nothing wrong with those. Looks good. Style of play is the only thing that would change one thing over another.
I would put stamina off as we have QR, but both is better. Depending on how things are working with QR, I might skip Fitness totally. Though Health might be good. I can just think of other pool things I'd rather have early, fighting.
Quote:
Well my character is actually level 50 so power selection does not matter as this is a respec build.
|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
RE: Builds
Nothing wrong with those. Looks good. Style of play is the only thing that would change one thing over another. I would put stamina off as we have QR, but both is better. Depending on how things are working with QR, I might skip Fitness totally. Though Health might be good. I can just think of other pool things I'd rather have early, fighting. |
Quote:
Eh, I didn't really intend it as negative. I use my observances to be prepared. To me, negative is to just flat refuse to bother with people. I consider it a positive to give everyone the opportunity, regardless of how others speak of them, what powers they have, their choice of name, how many vet badges they have, etc... But one person says something one way, another says it differently, right? |
Originally Posted by Postagulous
I think that's what's bothering me. It's called prejudice. Every sentence there is negative against a tank that can fly. And, even if someone is a newb, I don't think they're a moron. That said...oh, hell...I am really prejudiced with the Trial people. I was on a mish with three out of six. The tank that retreated to behind us was almost as bad as the AR/Dev who wanted to be a scrapper...not a blapper, just a scrapper. Death rained on us.
|
I want to say I'm not prejudice, but I believe that everyone is in some way. It's how you deal with it that is important.
Quote:
Foot Stomp for one. For another, Hurdle + CJ gives you very good, unspressed, maneuverability in combat. Hover, unless Speed Boosted, can't match that for melee (I use it on my controllers tho just fine, a few non-blapping blasters too). Finally, Fly is a slow a** travel power.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Why would it "get it the way of actual gameplay"? CJ does gives some additional mobility, but IME any advantage it gives in "actual gameplay" is very minor.
However, I suppose it could be playstyle dependent. I know in my case, having CJ made very, very little difference in how I play my characters. |
Yes, playstyles differ, but I find CJ + Hurdle infinitely preferable to anything else for my melee toons in combat.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Has anyone taken flight because they wanted it for concept even though doing so gives up some defense?
Here is my problem...I want Flight as my travel power.
I would take Hover and Fly.
I would use Hover for the extra defense during AV fights only because I am unable to use Footstomp while hovering.
My other choice would be to replace Hover and Fly with Super Jump and Maneuvers.
Having maneuvers basically allows me to have the extra defense that Hover would have gave me on all the time.
Super Jump does go with the super strength concept but it falls short of being iconic compared to Flight.
What are your thoughts on this?
Is having fly worth losing the extra (on all the time) defense from maneuvers?