Quote:
For reference, Mids lists Short Circuit as having base -35% end drain, Transference: -55%, Power Sink: -41%.|
Originally Posted by Reverend
I know there are some guides back around i5, talking about building a Kin/elec into a Sapper type character. (Before ED)
Is this still a viable strategy? I'm assuming you'd have to start with Short circuit slotted for 3 end mod, 1 acc and 2 recharge, and transferrence for targetting the big guys for end drain... Anyone have any suggestions/tips/etc? |
By itself Short Circuit is inadequate for draining a group of end enough to prevent them from attacking you. I had a Storm/Electric Blast and gave up on the drain aspect. Minions are usually dead before you can use Short Circuit a second time. Minions and LTs don't have enough attacks that use enough End to be be totally successul at mitigating damage with Short Circuit alone.
If you combine Short Circuit with Power Sink from the Electricity Mastery epic pool, you have a much more effective combo. But I didn't really enjoy much success with the two as an opening move solo, even with Steamy Mist and a +Stealth IO.
If you have a tank to coalesce the mobs and take the aggro for you, the combination of the two can pretty much keep a large group from doing anything, enough to be almost as good as a hold. But by itself Short Circuit just doesn't hack it.
Transference is a really good power, but it only drains a single target. With it alone Kin defenders can often keep bosses and EBs drained enough to mitigate a decent amount of damage. If you combine that with Short Circuit you can probably keep bosses and even EBs drained enough to prevent them from doing much of anything.
I like using the End Mod IO sets (Efficacy Adaptor) because they have some pretty decent bonuses and are fairly cheap. If you use Siphon Speed and/or Hasten you can get a huge amount of recharge and can use slots for other purposes.
End drain is still a good strategy, although if you stick with even cons, you can often kill off the minions and even Lts before they are drained. For bosses, OTOH, I find it very viable.
Since Short Circuit cannot Drain in one shot anyway, I highly encourage you to slot it for damage as well as drain. 1 Acc, 2 Rech, 1 End Mod, 2 Damage. You can get much better results by franken-slotting set IOs (a few PBAoE damage IOs and some End Mod IOs).
Short Circuit one slotted for End Mod and Transference one slotted for End Mod (and Transference often gets more than just one slot of End Mod) will drain a +2 boss, IIRC. The rest of the spawn has eaten the Short Circuit and hopefully a Ball Lightning as well, the boss is neutered, and you have Transfusion to fall back on if you have taken too much damage.
Kin/Elec is very good. Power Sink is a very good combo with SC, but so is Power Build Up. PBU + SC will drain an entire spawn, and you can PBU before aggro, so its like a one shot drain. Of course, if you are like me, you won't want to use an AoE without FS first, so you will PBU, run into the middle and eat the alpha, FS, SC, BL, Trasnfusion and cackle madly.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
End drain is still a good strategy, although if you stick with even cons, you can often kill off the minions and even Lts before they are drained. For bosses, OTOH, I find it very viable.
Since Short Circuit cannot Drain in one shot anyway, I highly encourage you to slot it for damage as well as drain. 1 Acc, 2 Rech, 1 End Mod, 2 Damage. You can get much better results by franken-slotting set IOs (a few PBAoE damage IOs and some End Mod IOs). Short Circuit one slotted for End Mod and Transference one slotted for End Mod (and Transference often gets more than just one slot of End Mod) will drain a +2 boss, IIRC. The rest of the spawn has eaten the Short Circuit and hopefully a Ball Lightning as well, the boss is neutered, and you have Transfusion to fall back on if you have taken too much damage. Kin/Elec is very good. Power Sink is a very good combo with SC, but so is Power Build Up. PBU + SC will drain an entire spawn, and you can PBU before aggro, so its like a one shot drain. Of course, if you are like me, you won't want to use an AoE without FS first, so you will PBU, run into the middle and eat the alpha, FS, SC, BL, Trasnfusion and cackle madly. |
hmm maybe I need to respec into PBU instead of Powersink
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
Im thinking that maybe I need to respec into Power Build Up instead of trying to make Power Sink work.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
End drain is still a good strategy, although if you stick with even cons, you can often kill off the minions and even Lts before they are drained. For bosses, OTOH, I find it very viable.
Since Short Circuit cannot Drain in one shot anyway, I highly encourage you to slot it for damage as well as drain. 1 Acc, 2 Rech, 1 End Mod, 2 Damage. You can get much better results by franken-slotting set IOs (a few PBAoE damage IOs and some End Mod IOs). Short Circuit one slotted for End Mod and Transference one slotted for End Mod (and Transference often gets more than just one slot of End Mod) will drain a +2 boss, IIRC. The rest of the spawn has eaten the Short Circuit and hopefully a Ball Lightning as well, the boss is neutered, and you have Transfusion to fall back on if you have taken too much damage. Kin/Elec is very good. Power Sink is a very good combo with SC, but so is Power Build Up. PBU + SC will drain an entire spawn, and you can PBU before aggro, so its like a one shot drain. Of course, if you are like me, you won't want to use an AoE without FS first, so you will PBU, run into the middle and eat the alpha, FS, SC, BL, Trasnfusion and cackle madly. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
Although I dont play Kin/Electric ( My sapper is Emp/Electric ), I can say that it works quite well. Considering all the tools that Kinetics has over Empathy, A Kin sapper would be awesome to behold. |
Originally Posted by Reverend
I know there are some guides back around i5, talking about building a Kin/elec into a Sapper type character. (Before ED)
Is this still a viable strategy? I'm assuming you'd have to start with Short circuit slotted for 3 end mod, 1 acc and 2 recharge, and transferrence for targetting the big guys for end drain... Anyone have any suggestions/tips/etc? |
There are three things I suggest with regards to sapping. The first is that you should consider waiting for Short Circuit until after Tesla Cage. If not then, at least until after SO level enhancements. Tesla Cage is a nice way to neutralize troublesome Lts at the start of a battle.
Second, the biggest thing that you have to get over is fear of melee range.
Sapping is a wild, in-your-face style, and you cannot be squeemish about getting close to hard hitting mobs. That being said, it will also help to add some personal defense to your character. Once again a reason to wait until after Tesla cage. Its very hard to have anything resembling defense on Empathy or Kinetics at level 10 when SC opens up.
Finally, I agree 100% with StratoNexus on his slotting reccommendations for SC.
I fire off Ball Lightning and Short Circuit every time they recharge, simply because I can and Tesla is only locking down 1-2 villains at a time. So every ounce of AoE that I can do on a group packed around me, means less single target attacks to finish em off.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
If you can get a dedicated teammate or partner that uses short circuit on a defender or blaster, it's a combo that is full of win. Duo Kin/Electric defenders are 'sick' in the amount of mitigation involved.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
I played a Kin/Elec Sapper to 50, often soloing.
Yes, it works, in a kind of edgy seat of your pants way. A lot like soloing a blaster, really.
The first 25 levels are terrible, because your main damage mitigation comes from Transference (26) and Tesla Cage (28), but once youve got the jkey powers its a lot of fun.
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Heh. I never took Tesla Cage on my Kin/Elec defender. SC + Transference would neuter the most dangerous target and that was usually enough. I do like Tesla Cage though and highly recommend it. I just started a new Kin/Elec (actually, I picked up a very, very old Kin/Elec that I had lying around) and I am pretty sure I am going to take Tesla Cage at 28.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I played a Kin/Elec Sapper to 50, often soloing.
Yes, it works, in a kind of edgy seat of your pants way. A lot like soloing a blaster, really. The first 25 levels are terrible, because your main damage mitigation comes from Transference (26) and Tesla Cage (28), but once youve got the jkey powers its a lot of fun. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
in all honesty, if you want to sapp make an elec/em blaster. elec is craptastic damage even with full FS. otherwise, if your just hellbent on having a kin, pic a decent secondary. /sonic and /ice cause theyre always nice. psi would even be fairly decent or even dark wouldnt be a bad choice.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
IMHO, go with an Elec/Kin corrupter for this concept unless you're really determined to be blueside.
The Defender end drain numbers aren't good enough to floor end or recovery in one shot. You'll be using at least two attacks, so you may as well do some real damage while you're at it. Focus something like FS -> Short Circuit -> Ball Lightning -> Transference -> Transfusion on a boss. Alternate FS with Siphon Power and repeat, fill with single target attacks as needed.
The extra damage will help your sapper more than the slight difference in buff values. Taking down the minions and lieuts faster means your unreliable floating damage pet becomes more reliable by virtue of not having any bad targets to choose from.
Quote:
My experience does not match your statement. You underestimate Ball Lightning and SC, in addition to Voltaic Sentinel.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
in all honesty, if you want to sapp make an elec/em blaster. elec is craptastic damage even with full FS. otherwise, if your just hellbent on having a kin, pic a decent secondary. /sonic and /ice cause theyre always nice. psi would even be fairly decent or even dark wouldnt be a bad choice.
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Ice? Ice? Frost Breath is great, but BL + SC is tons better and Ice Storm's recharge, even with Siphon Speed, keeps it out of any serious contention for real AoE power.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Which combo tio drain mobs is better..
SC and Power Build Up ( whoch also would boost damage ) or SC and Power Sink (which will fill the end bas easily )
I went with Power Sink but am not thrilled with having to take Thunderstike and slot a power I really dont want..
If SC and PBU allows me to drain in ONE hit instead of two then I might respec into that.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
If you want to sap, I think an elec/elec blaster would be a better idea. Since there isn't a difference between Blaster, Corruptor, and Defender end drain anymore (if there ever really was), what it really comes down to is which powers from your non-Elec Blast powerset really assist your end drain better and Lightning Field and the faster recharging Power Sink really allow Blasters to drain groups of enemies much faster (as in, in the first couple of seconds in every fight).
Quote:
Perhaps the drain amounts for defenders should be higher than blasters, and the same for Corruptors. Something like 35% for Blaster SC, 42.5% for Corruptor and 50% for Defenders, based on the differences in their base damage.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
If you want to sap, I think an elec/elec blaster would be a better idea. Since there isn't a difference between Blaster, Corruptor, and Defender end drain anymore (if there ever really was), what it really comes down to is which powers from your non-Elec Blast powerset really assist your end drain better and Lightning Field and the faster recharging Power Sink really allow Blasters to drain groups of enemies much faster (as in, in the first couple of seconds in every fight).
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Just a thought
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
PBU + SC does indeed allow you to drain in "one hit" (as in one power after aggro). OTOH, look at the recharge of PBU before you choose.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
If SC and PBU allows me to drain in ONE hit instead of two then I might respec into that.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Yeah I have one of these and the defender doesnt seem to work as well as the defender. Thats what I am trying to fix.
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
If you want to sap, I think an elec/elec blaster would be a better idea. Since there isn't a difference between Blaster, Corruptor, and Defender end drain anymore (if there ever really was), what it really comes down to is which powers from your non-Elec Blast powerset really assist your end drain better and Lightning Field and the faster recharging Power Sink really allow Blasters to drain groups of enemies much faster (as in, in the first couple of seconds in every fight).
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I've tried:
Elec/Elec Blaster (level 50) - saps groups with Short Circuit and Power Sink in theory, but this requires close to 5 seconds in melee range of said group with no other damage mitigation. I tended to hold first, then sap, then focus on damage.
Damage was a bit average, but only because I didn't take the heavy hitting punches in the secondary.
Kin/Elec Defender (level 50) - saps the worst target at range using Transference. You also have a big combat heal to keep you alive (mostly) before the second Short Circuit is ready to fire and sap the group. As a bonus, the heal saps 5% energy, which is often very useful. Tesla Cage is highly recommended here to keep an enemy close and immobile for use as a healing/transference source.
Damage wasnt great, but who cares when you have infinite health and endurance once the group is locked down?
Elec/Energy Blaster (level 31 currently) - you almost sap a group of +1s with Short Circuit slotted for end mod, Ball Lightning slotted for damage and Power Boost. Since the numbers for Boost got lowered a couple of issues back this is a big exercise in frustration, since you're so close but just not there for most enemies you'd realistically fight at higher levels.
The punches in Energy Manipulation make up the damage shortfall, but since they also contain stuns, and you have Tesla Cage, draining remains something of a gimmick.
None of these three builds really felt that satisfying to play, probably the Defender was the best of the three. If you ask me, Electrical Blast is a bit dysfunctional. It has this secondary effect thats tied to a long animated PBAoE, but that would still be too powerful if it was allowed to do its stuff ie neuter a room full of bosses. As a result, it kicks in really late as a useful tool, and often gets overshadowed by the nice simple effective,but not unique, single target hold in the set.
If the set had a single target end drain power, like a Malta Sapper's drain attack, it would be a different story.
Quote:
I LIKE this idea Dr.Mike |
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
None of these three builds really felt that satisfying to play, probably the Defender was the best of the three. If you ask me, Electrical Blast is a bit dysfunctional. It has this secondary effect thats tied to a long animated PBAoE, but that would still be too powerful if it was allowed to do its stuff ie neuter a room full of bosses. As a result, it kicks in really late as a useful tool, and often gets overshadowed by the nice simple effective,but not unique, single target hold in the set.
If the set had a single target end drain power, like a Malta Sapper's drain attack, it would be a different story. |
But what would it replace, Sparky maybe. It would then have to do some serious Damage as well, but I would still like it.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
It could replace Tesla Cage.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I LIKE this idea Dr.Mike
But what would it replace, Sparky maybe. It would then have to do some serious Damage as well, but I would still like it. |
Instead of the standard (but incredibly good) hold that we get, give Electrical Blast users a unique single target disabler that doesn't immobilise, but in exchange can one-shot disable a boss.
This of course wont happen, because the devs dont change powers underneath players, and quite rrightly so. Like I said above, I relied on the rooting of Tesla cage to keep a handy "healing post" enemy next to me on my Kinetics/Electric, a drained enemy could run off and cause me to face plant.
The other alternative would be to give meaningful (ie 20%-30%) drain to Lightning Bolt and Charged Bolt and Ball Lightning. This way you'd drain a tough enemy simply by attacking them - a boss would run out of endurance before it ran out of hit points. A lot like how an Ice Blaster slows their targets recharge down without even trying, it just happens as you attack. Or a Dark Blasting Defender drops their enemies to Hit by attacking.
Short Circuit could then be treated less preciously and slotted for damage instead of End drain, so the set would fall behind in single target damage but not in AoE damage.
Quote:
which was my point. PB + SC also is one hit and has a much faster recharge.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
PBU + SC does indeed allow you to drain in "one hit" (as in one power after aggro). OTOH, look at the recharge of PBU before you choose.
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Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Quote:
And with the blaster you are doing it from level 29 on, which is nice as well.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
which was my point. PB + SC also is one hit and has a much faster recharge.
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Of course, Kin/Elec defenders do some other things besides drain and damage that I figured the OP might also be interested in over the damage and control a blaster brings. Its hard to tell from his original post if he wants a sapper of any variety, or if he is looking to make a Kin/Elec into a sapper. Either way, this thread has some great information for them.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Is there a real problem with Kin/Electric damage or is it that the damage is broken up over a lot of small tics and numbers?
I know it is missing the Medium range high damage attack of most sets. Which really hurts your single target damage, but is it really lacking in AoE damage? Ball Lightning and Short Circuit do recharge fairly quicklyl. And they seem like a lot of small numbers which might mean that its a perception thing, not an actual less damage thing.
Quote:
I think you have to include the nuke in the dps. With a blue cab and transference you are right back in the fight. Kins can take a lot of mez, though and that can really hurt getting chain stunned or chain held.
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Originally Posted by Talionis
Is there a real problem with Kin/Electric damage or is it that the damage is broken up over a lot of small tics and numbers?
I know it is missing the Medium range high damage attack of most sets. Which really hurts your single target damage, but is it really lacking in AoE damage? Ball Lightning and Short Circuit do recharge fairly quicklyl. And they seem like a lot of small numbers which might mean that its a perception thing, not an actual less damage thing. |
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
It seems Break Frees and well placed Tesla Cages are really the only answers to being mezed, huh?
Its near impossible to get a significant level of Defense built up.
Force of Nature does not provide Mez Protection, muh... its not like it would be near perma
Power Build Up does up Defense some, but its hard to get it up a significant amount of the time. I'd personally rather have had regular Power Boost. At least it could've been up regularly to help boost defense through an Alpha Strike.
I know there are some guides back around i5, talking about building a Kin/elec into a Sapper type character. (Before ED)
Is this still a viable strategy?
I'm assuming you'd have to start with Short circuit slotted for 3 end mod, 1 acc and 2 recharge, and transferrence for targetting the big guys for end drain...
Anyone have any suggestions/tips/etc?