A Spines Discussion

I can't find an appropriate thread in which to discuss my issues with the Spines power set, so here goes...

My first reaction: it's GREAT! I mean, going solo, and I see a runner, my lvl 50 scrapper will use Impale to pin that runner in place, then finish hit off at my leisure. If I find myself surrounded, Spine burst and Quills wears them down until, once I'm done with one guy, I can move on and quickly dispatch the next...and the next...and the next. I'm not necessarily a killing machine (Oh...I'm sorry...we "capture" and "defeat" on CoH, not kill ), but I can handle things when I'm running solo.

But then I find myself on a team, and suddenly I'm not as confident on my power choices from years ago. Watching who is defeating what, I find myself cursing the slow animations of Spines. I mean, first I have to await the redraw of my powers after using a power like Reconstruction. So I save my skin with a quick heal, hit Impale, and...there's the wind-up...the pitch...and it's...GOOD!...after some blaster has reached out a hand and zapped the baddie to unconsciousness. In fact, the blaster has handled it with two attacks while I'm still trying to get that one off.

Using Mid's as a source for my powers...

1: Barb Swipe - 2.43 seconds
2: Lunge - 1.63 seconds
3: Spine Burst - 3 seconds
4: Impale - 2.43 seconds
5: Ripper - 2.17 seconds
6: Throw Spines - 1.63 seconds

I won't include Quills, since it's a toggle that does minor damage continuously.

But now let's look at a couple of other powers...

Claws
1: Swipe - 0.83 seconds
2: Strike - 1.17 seconds
3: Slash - 1.33 seconds
4: Spin - 2.5 seconds
5: Focus - 1.17 seconds
6: Eviscerate - 2.33 seconds
7: Shockwave - 1 second

Spines only has two attacks under 2 seconds, while claws has five.

Martial Arts
1: Thunder Kick - 0.83 seconds
2: Storm Kick - 0.83 seconds
3: Cobra Strike - 1.67 seconds
4: Crane Kick - 1.67 seconds
5: Crippling Axe Kick - 1.6 seconds
6: Dragon's Tail - 1.5 seconds
7: Eagles Claw - 2.53 seconds

*sigh* Only one attack over two seconds for MA, which has greater accuracy, and what seems to be greater damage than Spines. I certainly get the feeling they get more crits than I do whenever I'm teamed with an MA scrapper. And MA has the added advantage of not having a "draw" to its set.

Looking at all other sets, it would seem that they have, at most, three powers that have animations over two seconds. (Katana has NONE over two seconds!) And so it seems that the Spines set is the red-headed step-child of scrapper attacks.

It's distressing to see that while I'm getting attack number three off during a big fight, other ATs are getting off their sixth or seventh. If I happen to take out a large group, it's usually with Spine Burst, and it's well after the rest of the team has whittled the baddies down. Or maybe Quills happens to do the job. But on a full team, once a mission is complete, I often feel as though I was there as a decorative piece. Mind you, this is with various IO sets that have me recharging powers faster than it takes to activate them. (My Lunge recharges in 1.57 seconds, down from four, and takes me 1.63 seconds to use it. )

In the end, I would like to see the activation times of Spines reduced. I'm not sure how this could be done, but this is my beloved main I'm talking about. If it were possible to go back a few years and change his primary powers altogether, I would. But I can't, and I'm feeling a bit "stuck" with him.

Does anyone else feel this way about the set? Or am I alone in thinking Spines takes too long to use? Is there a dev out there willing to respond to my issues? Or am I praying for the impossible?

Here's hoping people won't be throwing flames at me for this seemingly minor complaint.

Be well.

+G

Youre Silly.

Spines is an AoE Beast and MA Cant compare in the least. Between Throw Spines and Spine Burst a single well positioned spiner can decimate a group before an MA can finish Eagles Claw.

Now when you get down to Single Target Nitty Gritty, MA blows Spines away, but thats because Spines is a Burst AoE Set, and MA is a lackluster ST set.

Please don't start a thread asking for spines to be BUFFED. I'm actually afraid it will be nerfed because it's too good. Sure the activation times are awful, but the toxic dot and the secondary effects it has are anything but.

and buff ma so it hits 500 ea hit
<.<
>.>

The OP does have a point. Every "original" scrapper set has received an animation pass over that has greatly increased the speed of the set. Most of these seem fairly recent (at least the swords at any rate, oh and clawlz).
edit: actually I don't think dark has been sped up, but it has been significantly buffed.

IIRC the problem with spines is that it still has baked in draw times attached to each power just like the sword sets used to. If that were removed each power would probably be like 0.7 sec (more or less) faster.

If you knocked that off of each attack the set would start to feel pretty good.

AFAIK spines is the only weapon draw set remaining that still has the baked in times (feel free to correct me though, but all I can think are probably things like the epic mace attacks still having it).

However, if you let BaB's have a go at bring the set in line with all the other "weapon/drawn sets", then Castle would probably get his knickers bunched up and go on a nerfing spree like he has implied he'd like to do to spines.

I deleted my 45 spines/regen after i started playing around with some other sets. I can't stand how slow and full of pauses spines feels, though it is certainly an aoe powerhouse. Spines feels a lot like new Energy Melee when I play it. A lot of corpse blasting.

It sounds to me like you need more practice and patience then, I have no problem with any corpse blasting.

One thing you'd benefit from is an overconfidant attitude. As a spines, you're going to be playing your best when YOU are the alpha for your team.

It's hard when you're /regen (which it looks like you are) because the enemy alpha is /regens weakness, so you've got to work out timing just perfectly so that when you attack you know your team will soon be drawing attention as well. So long as you're first you're going to make a huge contribution with only those two attacks.

Now two non-behavior tips
1.)Quills is an important toggle for it's lesser known tertiary effect, it keeps you from having to "redraw" since it keeps your spines out all the time.
2.)If teams are killing enemies so fast that you don't have time to get off spine burst/throw spines multiple times, than your team is fighting on too low a difficulty.

lastly, for extra solo-y goodness, for my spines/regen I turn the difficulty up to "team of 4-5" +0-1 (which gives you large mobs of mostly minions/lt's) then use every click defense I've got for the first mob or two. What you'll find out is after each mob you'll get so many inspirations that you can keep on pushing the rest of the map solely on that on going inspiration flow, since as you likely know, regen becomes godlike with even a single purple or orange insp.

P.S. (I only talked about two attacks) Ripper is incredibly wide range and powerful, throw spines definitely does not feel 1.67 seconds slow, I don't know the numbers well, but it's incredibly fast animating, certainly doesn't slow you down, the jump out of combat to use it was the only delay I ever felt noticeable.

Thanks Santorican, I admit I am going by memory, but I was trying to supply light not heat.

In response to the OP, I agree that Impale feels slow. I have less problem with Ripper since I also like Claws and Martial Arts, which also have slowish heavy hitters, so I'm more used to it. Impale sure differs from Focus in feel, though.

Jeminiks is dead on in his initial reply, that Martial Arts hitting harder and faster is okay because MA cannot hope to compete with Spines for AoE or for stacked secondary effect, for that matter. You have to let the poor MA guys have something besides style.

If it helps, try and think about it this way: your job is different as a Spiner. The kung-fu types are hammering away at specific targets (nasty mezzers, summoners, bosses) while the Spiners should constantly adjust their position to expose the most baddies to a lethal atmosphere of flying spines. Crowds melt away as you flow through your attack chain at a more stately pace.

I had no idea this topic would be debated as such. As the OP, I feel obligated to respond to some of what's been said.

Jeminiks: Spines may be an AoE beast, but by the time I get into the action on a team, the blasters and trollers have done their jobs a little too well. I'm left to say, "Oh, look...a boss is still standing." *Lunge* "Good thing I was here to make that one attack, eh?"

Fury Flechette: I'm not looking for a buff, per se...Just a shave off some of the animation times. I honestly don't see why it would be debuffed, since most of its damage is "moderate" at best. The toxic DoT is minor, and the slow effects...Well, unless I decide to experiment and slot slow enhancements, I'm only seeing it slow baddies severely underpowered against me. (Those Hellions in AP don't stand a chance against the slowing powers of my 50! Mwahahaha! )

Katten: Quills or no Quills, all of the attacks have a draw. So, as Spines/Regen scrapper, I activate all toggles, including Quills...Target an enemy...the power draws...I attack. It, at some time, I use any other ability along the way...run back to Aid Other, use Body Mastery: Laser Beam Eyes, or Vet Reward: Sands of Miss (Mu)...I have to draw again once I want to use a Spines attack.

When I team, it's not with weak opponents...It's more along the lines of being with skilled players who've slotted their powers properly. Their own AoEs are set in such a way that the two blasters and two trollers on the team can wipe out mobs before I've crossed the distance to the fight. I'm often left to joke, "Hey! Save some for the melee types!"

Frosticus: Let me be clear that I am not looking to see Spines made "an uber set." Remove the draws, and there are still lengthy animations to deal with. Remove the lengthy animations, and there'd still be draws to cope with. My point is that removing the fragmented seconds at some point would be appreciated. I'd like to be a bit more useful to the teams I join. The combat log almost looks like, "So-n-So defeated everyone," followed by, "You receive Rikti Alloy." It's as though I'm getting paid for doing no work. Some might enjoy that, but it's not my style.

Nihilii: I know you weren't addressing me directly, but I'll address something you said to the other poster. No one told me that I was slower; it's an observation I made while on damage heavy teams. I tend to end up on full teams, composed of, say, three scrappers (including myself), two blasters, a tank, a defender, and a troller. The blasters and troller seem to have most mobs wiped out before the tank can even attempt to control aggro. This leaves the four melee players on clean-up duty, and that's if we have the chance to cover the ground between where the team is and where the injured baddies are still standing.

Meanwhile...As for nerfing the set...well, the DoT is minor at best. Three or four ticks of 11 damage are probably not making a world of difference; I still have to make a full attack to finish off fights when I'm solo, because the DoT is half, or less than half, of the damage given by a regular strike. The slow effect? If I could see it without having to slot if, (as with cold attacks, Mudpots, Hotfeet, or Caltrops), I might gripe if it went away...but I don't see it. Not unless I happen to have Quills hit a bunch of level 10 Hellions at a fire in Steel Canyon or something. So, by all means, feel free to nerf the DoTs or the nearly nonexistent slow effects. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they took one and boosted the other...That would make the secondary effects worth having.

But the laborious animations...? Shave SOME, not all, of them down. Please?

And no fighting, folks. I'd like to see this remain a civil discussion. Again: Please?

Be well.

+G

While I wouldn't kick an animation upgrade to Spines out of bed, it doesn't actually need a buff. Now that they've fixed the 'rotten banana' graphics I'll be happily playing mine when they shut down the last server.

First. Lets be real. Two buffed fire blasters that are GOOD are going to make *everyone* corpse blast. That's an awful example. That's like two fire blasters complaining that two Elec/Shields are tele nuking everything and causing them to waste their AoE's.

On top of that....Throw Spines + Fireball (or Energy Torrent) Is FASTER than a Fire blasters AoE Volley by an whole second.

Ripper has a 2.17 Activation time, a pretty wide cone, and with the toxic DoT... it hits hard! It might not be quite as hard as headsplitter or GFS but it is a cone attack that when all the DoT hit, it isn't far behind. Its also right around the same speed, if not a little faster than the big hitters. So again if you are corpse blasting against hard targets on a spines scrapper... you shouldn't be doing much better on most of the other primaries. (I think Katana and DM are the only two that are actually faster with their "Big hit")

Spine burst and impale *are* slow. But they come early and are effective during those levels. Later they can be replaced by an epic attacks that end up much quicker. Spines is fine as is.. its probably better than fine. It does give up ST damage for its awesome AoE potential. But if I wanted a great ST set I'd play my Fire or DM scrappers....

I'm gonna go check for threads asking for Plant Control, Radiation Emissions, and Fire Blast to be buffed while I'm at it. Make sure I haven't been trolled here.

It would be a legitimate complaint if their powers were bugged... Look beyond the examples given. I realize they make for an easy strawman, but that is all you guys are doing.