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Seconded...or...third...eded...hehe...
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Originally Posted by Imaheroe
I'd vote for this.
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Ya, this has been an extremely frustrating experience...I love my Claws/SR but he sure is a pain! I didn't have many problems with my DB/SR and that's a concept toon as well. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Just so ya know... I get blindingly frustrated every single time I decide to respec my claws/sr again.
There's a reason I'm pushing to get the devs to drop the pre-reqs for power pools. If I could take tough/weave without boxing/kick, I'd be one happy scrapper. |
***shrug***
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Originally Posted by Fantomas
Seconded...or...third...eded...hehe...
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Please god yes.
Boxing is a wasted power on every single one of my toons
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And there's a reason that people like myself have been agreeing with the devs the the pre-reqs should stay because the pool power pre-reqs are fundamentally incorporated in the balance structure of the game.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
There's a reason I'm pushing to get the devs to drop the pre-reqs for power pools. If I could take tough/weave without boxing/kick, I'd be one happy scrapper.
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As much as I would love to just be able to pick stamina with out going hurdle/swift->health, gonna have to agree with Umbral.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
And there's a reason that people like myself have been agreeing with the devs the the pre-reqs should stay because the pool power pre-reqs are fundamentally incorporated in the balance structure of the game.
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I was just having that argument with myself and decided I was wrong. Meaning that you're also wrong.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
And there's a reason that people like myself have been agreeing with the devs the the pre-reqs should stay because the pool power pre-reqs are fundamentally incorporated in the balance structure of the game.
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The original balance structure of the game didn't include levels 41-50.
It didn't include APPs. It didn't include IOs.
While I completely agree that at one time the devs probably wanted us to, for example, replace a primary power with boxing which would lower our damage output in order to increase our mitigation, that bit of balance flies out the window in the face of the extra damage AND mitigation we can now get at level 50 and tweaked up.
Once upon a time it made sense to take hover for combat flight. That was back when fly's end cost was vastly higher than it is now.
Back then the devs gave absolutely no thought to redraw and cast times. Now we've had entire sets restructured BASED on cast times.
So, yes, the tiers had a point when the game was young. It's not the same game. Now the only outcome of tiers in power pools is annoyance.
And like so many other annoyances of the past, this one as well should be done away with.
Leave the level requirements in place. No tough until 14. No weave until 20. No fly until 14 unless you've got the 60 month vet reward.
Having to waste a power pick on a power that you never slot and delete from your power trays is bad design when placed up against the realities of the game as it is Now.
EDIT: And we'd STILL be locked into 4 basic pools and 1 app/ppp. Want fly, cj, tough, stamina and maneuvers? Tough. You only get 4.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Agree.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Having to waste a power pick on a power that you never slot and delete from your power trays is bad design when placed up against the realities of the game as it is Now.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Now the only outcome of tiers in power pools is annoyance.
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| Having to waste a power pick on a power that you never slot and delete from your power trays is bad design when placed up against the realities of the game as it is Now. |
While I've never thought that Cryptic was particularly good at balancing anything, how they incorporated the power pools was actually quite well done. You have to figure out whether Stamina is worth the 2 previous power choices. You have to figure out whether you're willing to waste a power choice getting a power that is largely useless if you want Tough and Weave. If the higher tier powers no longer required that choice, you'd be getting rid of a necessary balance point to those powers and that is not a good thing.
Unlimited numbers of the power pools I could probably go for...
Maybe I'm crazy but I like Boxing, it allows me to slot Absolute Amazment in a character that otherwises couldn't get that.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I for one would still take Swift and Hurdle...every time. But people only use Boxing and Kick as set mules. Oh, what fun that is. I don't think they should get rid of the entire system but I do think it should be slightly re-tooled to some degree so that the powers that people either delete from their trays or ONLY use as set mules have some degree of use. This is a super hero game and I cant think of many super hero type characters that intentionally learn a power /ability only to say eh, Im only learning this because I have to but it sucks so Ill never use it. Now, I understand that you have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run but
this is a video game. A super hero video game. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
That's completely beside the point. The tiers requirements don't exist to simply force annoying powers upon you for annoyance's sake. They exist to require additional power choices in order to get the greater benefits of the higher tier powers. If you didn't have to take the prereqs, can you honestly tell me that anywhere near the same number of people would take Swift or Hurdle? The fundamental balance behind Stamina (and many of the 4th tier powers) includes eating up 2 other power slots. Tough and Weave are incredibly potent and pretty much everyone could (and probably would) fit them in if they didn't have to take any of the prereqs. Hell, Tough could quite easily see a drop in popularity considering it doesn't really do much for low resistance powerset combos.
While I've never thought that Cryptic was particularly good at balancing anything, how they incorporated the power pools was actually quite well done. You have to figure out whether Stamina is worth the 2 previous power choices. You have to figure out whether you're willing to waste a power choice getting a power that is largely useless if you want Tough and Weave. If the higher tier powers no longer required that choice, you'd be getting rid of a necessary balance point to those powers and that is not a good thing. |
I always thought there should be more powers available to choose from the primary and secondary to encourage even more diversity between characters. We would still have a set number to choose but you could make multiple versions of the same primary/secondary without everyone being a clone or near clone of everyone else. That's just wishful thinking though...I really have no major problem with the current state of things...I just hate picking powers that will never get used because they are just...well...not good enough to be used. Boxing should be used to punch someone in the face...hard...not just as a set mule.
I still think it's absolutely ridiculous that your basic, staring attack Brawl is so weak. I see no reason why a good ole' punch in the face shouldn't be able to do more than what it is set at or be effectively upgraded to do more than it currently does. The same goes for the starting ranged power...like throwing knives. Near useless after a few short levels. What fun is that? Again, I understand why it is that way Im just voicing an opinion here and nothing more.
I understand and agree with the need for prerequisite powers...I just think the current system could be slightly reworked in very small ways that would make it even better.
just sayin
)
To continue the digression--I love Hurdle and Swift (and Combat Jumping) and don't enjoy playing as much the few toons of mine that have taken Health (stupid delicious stamina-giving-procs that can't be slotted effectively elsewhere, grumble...).
I also dig (an Absolute Amazement or Kinetic Combat aside) pre-reqs that are never slot hungry. And if you're not IOing Boxing, by the way, why not take the much awesomer animation of Boot, er, I mean Kick?
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I don't know how you play, but I actually dropped Shockwave on mine to pick it up, and moved 4 slots over to boxing for the Absolute Amazement set, so I keep the recharge, and then put another damage proc somewhere. I leave PhysPerf. with only the Performance Shifter proc.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Since I currently have conserve power as a replacement for elude, I'd like to fit PhysPerf in, but have no clue what I could possibly drop.
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That's the whole issue right there. I don't see the pre-reqs as a necessary balance point anymore. Not even remotely. Not when I can solo +4/x8 spawns and their bosses.| If the higher tier powers no longer required that choice, you'd be getting rid of a necessary balance point to those powers and that is not a good thing. |
The OLD balance was lose X amount of effectiveness, say the difference between strike and boxing, in order to add the extra mitigation of tough.
How can that be considered a balance point when I can slam enough recharge, end-reduction and damage buff into my character that I can completely remove both of those attacks from my attack bar, never slotting either of them, and still have a full attack chain dishing out DPS not even dreamed of in the old days?
Does it really matter beyond removing an annoyance at that point?
I'm going to continue taking swift, health and stamina on all of my melee characters regardless of whether the tiers are in place or not. I do realize that many players will take nothing but stamina.
I would never take boxing or kick if I could jump straight to tough/weave. My guess is that this is true for the vast majority of the playerbase.
But I'm left asking, "So what?" What powers will I take instead of the pre-reqs if I'm allowed to do so?
Let's see how many get freed up on my current build:
Boxing
Conserve Power (Maybe)
Ok... that's two.
What can I replace those two powers with? Well, can't be something from a new pool because I'm already using all 4.
I'll replace CP with PhysPerf.
Ok, Eviscerate it is.
So for my ENTIRE build, the complete removal of the pre-reqs from all pools lets me get a third AoE and PP instead of CP. Too bad I don't have any more slots on the character. I didn't have any extras placed in either CP or boxing. I'll have to rebuild from scratch and LOSE effectiveness in other powers in order to buff the new ones.
The balance is in the number of slots we get and the number of powers we get to choose. Pre-reqs I can only consider a balance point for a game that no longer is the game we currently play.
Be well, people of CoH.
The way I see it, removing the need to take the pre-requisites for pools and APPs would also give the Devs a reason to go over those pool powers and rebalance them in order to make it so that maybe taking boxing WOULD be worth it.
As it stands now, most of my toons are built with Boxing/Tough/Weave and Boxing sits unused on the power tray. In fact, the closest I've come to using it is having it four slotted with Kinetic Combat on my Fire/Kin/Stone to get soft-capped S/L defense. My Elec/WP Brute might use it in her fury building chain just because Jacob's Ladder animates way too slow.
I know that with the whole Fitness pool, I'd be hard-pressed to skip Hurdle on a toon with CJ or SS and, like-wise, hard-pressed to skip Swift on a toon with Flight. I know I'd be skipping Stimulant/Aid Other on a number of my builds. I don't see how more choice is a bad thing. The only thing I see is it will give the Devs more work to do in order to make those tons of pre-reqs that everyone would have had to take more palatable so that people will actually want to take them.
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I would never skip eviscerate personally. I love the animation, but even aside from that, after they increased the damage and the range to 7ft instead of 5, its SUCH a nice power to kill things, and is ultimately IMO the best power to help you kill fast, it gets an extra critical chance as well, that will easily hit 5 enemies.
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Originally Posted by Fantomas
Strike really is an ugly power. It seems that there are some fairly good arguments concerning the Strike vs. Swipe at lvl 1 debate...ARGH! However, it seems that most of the builds I see on here start with Strike so, I guess I'll stick with it since I already have it and all.
What are your thoughts on Eviscerate? Keep in mind that I'll probably never be soloing AV's or anything like that. I'm mainly a team player that does some solo PVE here and there. |
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
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Why does your build not have room for eviscerate??? Did you pick up energy torrent or hasten maybe?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
On the one hand, I hate eviscerate because the animation is long and looks stupid.
On the other hand, it does very nice damage, has a 15% chance to crit all the time, and can be used in conjunction with spin to decimate spawns in short order. As I'll be using my main to run scanner missions in PI set at +4/x8 as soon as I-16 goes live, I kinda wish I had room for eviscerate. As it is, I just don't. Luckily, +4s only get knocked down with shockwave instead of knocked back. And for the record, ALL new claws users I build take swipe, strike, slash, spin and followup. It's not til later that I respec out of strike or swipe. |
I dunno, the build i posted caps defense, and has good recharge on all powers so i dont see hasten ever being needed, especially with claws. The build i posted still gets spin after double follow up every time so, i just dont understand lol.
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
[QUOTE=Bill Z Bubba;2224856]Shred,
I have looked at that chain. I don't have that spreadsheet in front of me but it was still less than the FU, Slash, Focus, Strike chain which in turn is less than the seemingly impossible FU, Slash, Focus chain. (This is not actually impossible... it's just that the build needed to make it happen has some serious problems.)QUOTE]
Which is what my claw/regen scrapper did before they nerfed focus and changed the animation for slash . He is since retired .
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Just so ya know... I get blindingly frustrated every single time I decide to respec my claws/sr again.
There's a reason I'm pushing to get the devs to drop the pre-reqs for power pools. If I could take tough/weave without boxing/kick, I'd be one happy scrapper. |
There is a way, but i can't remember how. If you ever notice lots of people running around with superspeed, or fly, but without taking hasten/flurry or hover/as though. I thought it was a vet reward, but i'm only i think 2 rewards behind on my account right now and haven't heard of it from the 2 i don't have.
Also, look at my build, it still caps defense without taking weave. Don't forget, while you may not really "need" focused accuracy, its a terrific place for the 2.5% defense bonuse to all 3 positional types. Its how my build caps without weave, which is VERY nice. Letting you not have to skip a power, and picking up physical perfection.
Honestly, i'd like to see the builds you both are using, the ONLY power i can see you thinking you need to not have the power options open to you is hasten, where like i said, this is probably one of my top 5 builds in the game, that i think doesn't need hasten.
Edit: so its the 60 month? oh joy thats only like 11 days away for me! yay :P
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
Here's what I have on live right now. The Mids build was wiped out.
From Claws: All but Strike, Eviscerate, Confront
From SR: All but Elude
Fitness: Swift, Health, Stamina
Fighting: Boxing, Tough, Weave
Speed: Hasten
Leaping: Combat Jumping, Super Jump
APP: Conserve Power
1862.4 HP
27.47 HP/sec
Melee Def: 45.83
Range Def: 45.13
AoE Def: 45.19
S/L DamRes: 17.61
Recovery: 3.56 e/s
Recharge: 167.5
Damage Buff: 9.5
Be well, people of CoH.
The only reasonable drop I can see to accommodate PP is to lose Quickness. It basically boils down to do you want more regen/recovery or more recharge?
Can possibly drop Hasten to go from an intermittent 70% recharge to a static 20% recharge. Eviscerate if you're not too worried about your AoE capabilities. But really I just keep going back to losing Quickness.
Never happen. That's 20% recharge, +run, +fly, slow resists ... I gots to have my quickyquick!
Sucks not having fly. I am toying around with the build though. I've been missing fly badly lately. Bill's just not right with super jump. And he's also just not right without combat jumping.
After 60 months, I'll be able to take fly without hover/airsup... but I'll still have to drop a pool to get it and the most likely loss will be hasten. I'm pretty sure that I can maintain fu/slash/focus/strike or swift without hasten... just gotta cram the setio recharge bonuses in there to do so.
Be well, people of CoH.
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The balance point was never that you were going to use Boxing and lower your damage to make up for the increase in survivability. If it were like that, Boxing would have a reliable survivability contribution like DA, Parry, Cobra Stike, etc. As it stands, it's a pool attack and thereby weaker than a primary attack.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
That's the whole issue right there. I don't see the pre-reqs as a necessary balance point anymore. Not even remotely. Not when I can solo +4/x8 spawns and their bosses.
The OLD balance was lose X amount of effectiveness, say the difference between strike and boxing, in order to add the extra mitigation of tough. |
The entire balance point is that Tough is a power that requires 2 power choices. It's worse than a native resistance toggle (because it's more expensive for each point of +res) but it's also more expensive to take because it requires another power (that you may or may not use, most likely not because it's a pool power and generally weaker) to be taken first. The devs have said just as much to players that continually request this (mainly because they don't want to have to devote 2 of their pre-20 power choices to Fitness). If you didn't have to take 2 other powers before getting to the final power in a power pool, Castle has said that it would be weakened to make up for it.
As to the people that keep saying they would take Swift or Hurdle even if they didn't have to take them to get Stamina, I'mma smack you upside the back of your heads if you honestly think that those powers would have any place in an optimized build. There are much better powers that could be taken, if only to be another set mule.
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Thanks for proving my point. Weaker attack to get to mitigation buff. Precisely as I said. And just as precisely silly in the age of IOs.| The balance point was never that you were going to use Boxing and lower your damage to make up for the increase in survivability. If it were like that, Boxing would have a reliable survivability contribution like DA, Parry, Cobra Stike, etc. As it stands, it's a pool attack and thereby weaker than a primary attack. |
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| The entire balance point is that Tough is a power that requires 2 power choices. It's worse than a native resistance toggle (because it's more expensive for each point of +res) but it's also more expensive to take because it requires another power (that you may or may not use, most likely not because it's a pool power and generally weaker) to be taken first. The devs have said just as much to players that continually request this (mainly because they don't want to have to devote 2 of their pre-20 power choices to Fitness). If you didn't have to take 2 other powers before getting to the final power in a power pool, Castle has said that it would be weakened to make up for it. |
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| As to the people that keep saying they would take Swift or Hurdle even if they didn't have to take them to get Stamina, I'mma smack you upside the back of your heads if you honestly think that those powers would have any place in an optimized build. There are much better powers that could be taken, if only to be another set mule. |
To put it another way, we're going to HAVE to take powers that don't get slotted. I'd rather take a power that I find useful (swift) and not slot it than take a power I find 100% useless (boxing.)
Be well, people of CoH.
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And you're completely ignoring the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying. The cost is the fact that you're having to select a power you otherwise wouldn't pick. It doesn't matter what it is. The cost is the fact that you have to select a power you likely wouldn't otherwise take in order to access a power that you most definitely would take.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Thanks for proving my point. Weaker attack to get to mitigation buff. Precisely as I said. And just as precisely silly in the age of IOs.
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