Quote:
And I'm saying that it means even more than it used to considering how much freeing up an individual power selection can do to a build, especially when you allow said build to get rid of some set mules in place of others that are easily more powerful.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I'm not ignoring what you're stating. I'm stating that what you're stating was only meaningful when the game was created and has since completely lost that meaning.
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I don't buy it, and never will. We'd still be stuck with 4 power pools and 1 app. We'd still be stuck with the same number of slots.
I do not believe, at the high end, that the performance difference between what we do now and what we could do were the pre-reqs removed would be any more noticeable than the performance differences between scrapper secondaries IOed to the gills now.
In other words, the difference would be negligible.
EDIT: But I'm curious enough to find out. I'll install a second instance of Mids and yank all the power requirements from the pools I use and see what I could build.
Mids rocks. That actually took no time at all to remove the pre-reqs from the powers I want.
Wanna guess what I ran into? Slot starvation on the first go. Just as I expected. The one big plus is that I get to have all three claws aoes and physical perfection. But I don't have nearly the slots needed to go around.
Be well, people of CoH.
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When someone's pushing hard for something, they don't really think it's negligible.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I don't buy it, and never will. We'd still be stuck with 4 power pools and 1 app. We'd still be stuck with the same number of slots.
I do not believe, at the high end, that the performance difference between what we do now and what we could do were the pre-reqs removed would be any more noticeable than the performance differences between scrapper secondaries IOed to the gills now. In other words, the difference would be negligible. |
In your case, you'd trade Boxing for Eviscerate, which isn't negligible.
In my case it'd be Boxing for One with the Shield, which isn't negiligible, either. Edit: and Aid other for Physical Perfection. And in my case, even if I can't come up with any extra slots at all, I'd still get a BIG survival boost to a build that's already softcapped with 2000hp, 30% s/l resistance, a self-heal, and anywhere from 200-240dps.
Your argument is that in the age of inventions, limitations like prerequisites are meaningless. And the argument doesn't scan. If anything, those limitations are more important now, precisely because of inventions. Slot starvation? Inventions. HamiOs. The workarounds are there.
After all, we're able to trivialize 99% of game content as it is. Remove prerequisites and we'll trivialize 99.9% of content.
But in any case, the developers balance neither powersets nor content around purpled-out IO builds; they balance them around SO builds. Therefore whatever balancing function prerequisites had by design is still relevant in the critical cases.
So, a big "I don't buy it, and never will," back to your argument.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Here's what I have on live right now. The Mids build was wiped out.
From Claws: All but Strike, Eviscerate, Confront From SR: All but Elude Fitness: Swift, Health, Stamina Fighting: Boxing, Tough, Weave Speed: Hasten Leaping: Combat Jumping, Super Jump APP: Conserve Power 1862.4 HP 27.47 HP/sec Melee Def: 45.83 Range Def: 45.13 AoE Def: 45.19 S/L DamRes: 17.61 Recovery: 3.56 e/s Recharge: 167.5 Damage Buff: 9.5 |
So i was right, you did get hasten, that explains it pretty much all right there as to why you don't have the power choice available to you.
Grr mids is messed up with the unofficial version so i have to calculate each of these but:
Strike: 1.55 seconds
Slash: 2.32 seconds
Follow Up: 5.36 seconds
Focus: 2.86 seconds
Eviscerate: 3.84 seconds
Spin: 3.99 seconds
Shockwave: 5.29 seconds
These are the recharge values on the attacks without hasten in my build. I really fail to see where hasten is needed in this equation.
If you check my IOs, it caps without weave, so that saves you a power slot there, skipping hasten saves you a power slot. Then you're free to pick up focused accuracy slotted, and physical perfection slotted. With claws + the end reduction in this build + bonuses + numina unique + slotted physical perfection, i'd really fail to see where you'd need conserve power as well. (just because you have FA doesnt mean you'll always need it, youll still get the 2.5% defense bonuses from it either way)
Not sure if your build uses them but mine uses no purples as well which i'm always a fan of not using and still getting an amazing build without.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Never happen. That's 20% recharge, +run, +fly, slow resists ... I gots to have my quickyquick!
Sucks not having fly. I am toying around with the build though. I've been missing fly badly lately. Bill's just not right with super jump. And he's also just not right without combat jumping. After 60 months, I'll be able to take fly without hover/airsup... but I'll still have to drop a pool to get it and the most likely loss will be hasten. I'm pretty sure that I can maintain fu/slash/focus/strike or swift without hasten... just gotta cram the setio recharge bonuses in there to do so. |
Well, i just gave you the recharge values on the attacks without hasten. Have at it! lol
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Quote:
Wrong, i would take hurdle EVERY time. The mobility it gives with combat jumping, can NEVER be skipped in any of my builds. Being able to move that fast in and out of melee IS part of an optimized build in lots of situations where actually gettting to an enemy matters.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The balance point was never that you were going to use Boxing and lower your damage to make up for the increase in survivability. If it were like that, Boxing would have a reliable survivability contribution like DA, Parry, Cobra Stike, etc. As it stands, it's a pool attack and thereby weaker than a primary attack.
The entire balance point is that Tough is a power that requires 2 power choices. It's worse than a native resistance toggle (because it's more expensive for each point of +res) but it's also more expensive to take because it requires another power (that you may or may not use, most likely not because it's a pool power and generally weaker) to be taken first. The devs have said just as much to players that continually request this (mainly because they don't want to have to devote 2 of their pre-20 power choices to Fitness). If you didn't have to take 2 other powers before getting to the final power in a power pool, Castle has said that it would be weakened to make up for it. As to the people that keep saying they would take Swift or Hurdle even if they didn't have to take them to get Stamina, I'mma smack you upside the back of your heads if you honestly think that those powers would have any place in an optimized build. There are much better powers that could be taken, if only to be another set mule. |
And as to the whole skipping the first tier, the easiest solution:
If you do skip the first tier of a pool set, the subsequent higher tier powers would be less effective. If you picked up the first power of the tier, they would be at their normal values.
For example:
If you picked up boxing + tough
Tough: slotted = 17.1% resistance on a scrapper
If you picked up just tough only
Tough: 12% resistance on a scrapper
That way there is still incentive to pick up the prerequisites in a power pool set, while still letting you skip the prerequisite if you wanted to.
And i'm also with bill, that the big downfall if skipping pre-requisites were gone, is that we still dont have any extra slots to go around. That's going to hold us back more than anything.
"having more "slots" now due to IOs" goes easily out the window when you are trying to go for certain set bonuses.
Otherwise my health would only be 3 slotted, not 5, stamina only 3 slotted not 4 etc. So i'm already losing a bunch of slots in the process, take away pre-requisites, i'd be losing even more. So i think the trade-off is more than fair.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Thanks for proving my point. Weaker attack to get to mitigation buff. Precisely as I said. And just as precisely silly in the age of IOs.
Castle and the rest of the devs has said a great many things that they later backed down on. But to be honest, I would rather take slightly reduced tough without having to waste the power pick for boxing/kick. Yes, yes, some people LIKE being turtles on the battlefield. I'm not one of them. To put it another way, we're going to HAVE to take powers that don't get slotted. I'd rather take a power that I find useful (swift) and not slot it than take a power I find 100% useless (boxing.) |
agreed, which my suggestion a post or two above this suggest JUST the way to do this exactly so that we are all happy with the result.
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The problem comes from needing 184% recharge in followup for a clean attack chain of fu, slash, focus, strike. This chain needs FU recharging in 4.224 seconds.
Pretty sure my current slotting only has 89.93 so that's 94.07 needed from IOs and quickness. 74.07 recharge is certainly doable from set bonuses, especially with purples which I do have, but some sacrifices have to be made.
Good thing we get another freespec with I-16.
Be well, people of CoH.
I see no reason for reduced values on power pools to allow us to skip the pre-reqs. It would add unnecessary complexity.
In a nutshell, my desire for this change only really came up when the devs decided to allow 60 month vets to not only ignore the pre-reqs on movement powers, but to take their movement power without a pre-req 8 levels before anyone else.
Removing the pre-reqs wouldn't change the level requirements. You'd still have to wait until 14 to take tough which, in my mind, is enough.
The other reason for this request is the basic unfairness of power pool attacks toward weapon users. Super Strength Brutes can skip jab and replace it with boxing and get an INCREASE in DPS. A claws brute replacing swipe with boxing loses considerable DPS due to the redraw on claws.
Why is this relevant? If the concept of powerpool balance is based on pre-reqs being forced to counter the benefit of tier 2 and 3 powers in a pool, then the effect that balance has on a build SHOULD be equal for all sets within an AT. That's not the case for weapon sets.
If a pool pre-req places a higher detriment on one set within an AT more than another, then balance is already broken.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Have you actually tested that chain in comparison to fu-slash-focus-swipe?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The problem comes from needing 184% recharge in followup for a clean attack chain of fu, slash, focus, strike. This chain needs FU recharging in 4.224 seconds.
Pretty sure my current slotting only has 89.93 so that's 94.07 needed from IOs and quickness. 74.07 recharge is certainly doable from set bonuses, especially with purples which I do have, but some sacrifices have to be made. Good thing we get another freespec with I-16. |
Been awhile but if I remember correctly, the one with strike had a lower number when I did a pylon test.
Or was it just the oooggglynesss of the chain that draws me away from it...
Anyways I'll run a test on it again later on tonight and see. I think I still have a respec hanging around somewhere.
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FU, Slash, Focus, Strike: 184% recharge in FU and does 216.268 DPS|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Have you actually tested that chain in comparison to fu-slash-focus-swipe?
Been awhile but if I remember correctly, the one with strike had a lower number when I did a pylon test. Or was it just the oooggglynesss of the chain that draws me away from it... Anyways I'll run a test on it again later on tonight and see. I think I still have a respec hanging around somewhere. |
FU, Slash, Focus, Swipe: 203% recharge in FU and does 213.087 DPS
But that's with my current heavy duty IO slotting. Enough to matter? Not if you have the recharge for it, but getting that 203% sounds rough. If I could do it, I probably would due to strike's ugliness. We'll see.
Be well, people of CoH.
The numbers sure favors Strike, but I beleive the stacking on FU was dropping while running that chain.
I'll run it on test when I pick up some time to play...
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You're bringing up the only case wherein Boxing is actually better than the native attacks for a melee power set and there's a reason for this: Boxing sucks, but the first two attacks for Super Strength suck more. All of the attacks in Super Strength are balanced around the presence of perma-Rage (if you doubt me, just look at their DPAs). Boxing isn't.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The other reason for this request is the basic unfairness of power pool attacks toward weapon users. Super Strength Brutes can skip jab and replace it with boxing and get an INCREASE in DPS. A claws brute replacing swipe with boxing loses considerable DPS due to the redraw on claws.
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Bringing up how Boxing is better for Super Strength than it is for Claws as an example of how the pool powers are inherent unfair to weapon users is also trying to stretch your argument too far. Sure, weapon users have to deal with redraw (something that was actually asked for), but Boxing sucks for non-weapon users too. The only set that can actually find an effective use for it is Super Strength because, as I said before, the first two powers in that set suck miserably to make up for Perma-Rage.
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Hectaomb in FU (all but Dam) would give you 89.92% +rech. 20% from Quickness. 5 LotG +rechs would give you 37.5%. 5 piece Hecatomb, 5 piece Apocalypse, and 5 piece Ragnarok net you another 30%. If you mule Boxing, that's another 10%. Crushing Impact 5 piece in Slash and Swipe get you 10% more and Obliteration 5 piece in Spin/Eviscerate give you 5-10% more. Should be easily within reach, especially if you're willing to dump a 6th slot into FU for another IO (level 50 common rech IO would net you roughly 11% +rech).
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
FU, Slash, Focus, Strike: 184% recharge in FU and does 216.268 DPS
FU, Slash, Focus, Swipe: 203% recharge in FU and does 213.087 DPS But that's with my current heavy duty IO slotting. Enough to matter? Not if you have the recharge for it, but getting that 203% sounds rough. If I could do it, I probably would due to strike's ugliness. We'll see. |
While I can agree that using super strength was a bad idea up there, you kind of missed the point about weapon vs non-weapon sets and the impact that power pool attacks have on them now versus before the redraw times were ripped out of the attacks.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
agreed completely. They would need to at least|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I see no reason for reduced values on power pools to allow us to skip the pre-reqs. It would add unnecessary complexity.
In a nutshell, my desire for this change only really came up when the devs decided to allow 60 month vets to not only ignore the pre-reqs on movement powers, but to take their movement power without a pre-req 8 levels before anyone else. Removing the pre-reqs wouldn't change the level requirements. You'd still have to wait until 14 to take tough which, in my mind, is enough. The other reason for this request is the basic unfairness of power pool attacks toward weapon users. Super Strength Brutes can skip jab and replace it with boxing and get an INCREASE in DPS. A claws brute replacing swipe with boxing loses considerable DPS due to the redraw on claws. Why is this relevant? If the concept of powerpool balance is based on pre-reqs being forced to counter the benefit of tier 2 and 3 powers in a pool, then the effect that balance has on a build SHOULD be equal for all sets within an AT. That's not the case for weapon sets. If a pool pre-req places a higher detriment on one set within an AT more than another, then balance is already broken. |
A: let us skip the tier 1/2 prerequisites on pool powers or
B: fix the animations of all boxing/kick to work for all weapons sets to not cause redraw
Now which do you think would be a CRAPTON easier for the devs to implement?
I'd say option A
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
FU, Slash, Focus, Strike: 184% recharge in FU and does 216.268 DPS
FU, Slash, Focus, Swipe: 203% recharge in FU and does 213.087 DPS But that's with my current heavy duty IO slotting. Enough to matter? Not if you have the recharge for it, but getting that 203% sounds rough. If I could do it, I probably would due to strike's ugliness. We'll see. |
Why not:
FU > Focus > Strike > Slash > Strike > FU
or
FU > Focus > Slash > Strike > Eviscerate > FU
granted that i'm sure you did far more dps calculations that show that your chain is more DPS.
But realistically, your is a single target attack chain only for one, so even when soloing there are more than one enemy in your face, so adding shockwave, or spin is going to help a lot either way.
In either case, the dps is still decent with said attack chains, and lets you skip hasten, and cp, and pick up FA, physical perfection, and drop weave.
I think its more than a fair trade off to have to add one more attack in to your chain before you use follow up again.
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Quote:
I didn't miss your point. I caught it easily. In fact, I agree with you to some degree, except that I qualified your position by saying that, even though it's worse for the weapon sets that it is for non-weapon sets, they're still bad for the non-weapon sets.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
While I can agree that using super strength was a bad idea up there, you kind of missed the point about weapon vs non-weapon sets and the impact that power pool attacks have on them now versus before the redraw times were ripped out of the attacks.
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Quote:
I had not looked at it, probably because I figured that any chain without the Achilles' Heel was going to fall behind. Looking at it now...|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Anyone looked at this chain?
Followup>Evicerate>Focus... repeat Keeping in mind you can use all 3 purple procs, and evicerate can use the PVP damage reduction debuff proc. It takes less global recharge and I don't think you can triple stack followup on evicerate. But the DPS looks on par with anything else I've seen in claws. |
I have Follow Up triple-stacking on Eviscerate by 0.006 seconds. Not sure if that's enough in practice, but it counts on paper until proven otherwise. I also have the Gladiator proc triple stacking on Focus by 0.054 seconds. Again, not sure if it'll really work, but I'm counting it for now.
OK, wow. Winner. In my DPS template build, I have that chain at 242 DPS vs. Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash at only 227 DPS. Plus it has an AoE. I suddenly want to get back to leveling my Claws/SR.
Uploaded if anyone wants to check my math. No, the endurance isn't sustainable.
On a different subject, travel powers at level 6 without prerequisites are the 60 month veteran reward, yes.
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Werner, do you use Decimation: Chance for Build-Up in Focus?
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Hmmm, looks like a purple proc and Explosive Strike proc. I should probably compare the chance for build up proc to see if it's any better.
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Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
Werner, do you use Decimation: Chance for Build-Up in Focus?
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Quote:
My own math to figure out the DPS (using my own build, of course, couldn't load yours because Mids wasn't liking your data chunk) only got 211.9 DPS. I'm trying to figure out why exactly there's such a disparity (especially since I assume 100% chance to hit). The FU>Focus>Slash>Wait attack chain that I'm assuming manages ~215.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Hmmm, looks like a purple proc and Explosive Strike proc. I should probably compare the chance for build up proc to see if it's any better.
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Just looking at your numbers though, I can see at least one thing that's blatantly wrong. You've got Focus listed as having a base damage of 106.4 in the FU>Evis>Focus chain when the base damage is only 86.96 while you've listed it correctly as having 87 damage in the FU>Focus>Slash attack chain. Fixing that error correctly displays the DPS of the FU>Evis>Focus chain as being 226.
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Oops. Yep. Same mistake in my Follow Up -> Slash -> Focus -> Slash. So 226, comparable to the Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash at 227.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
My own math to figure out the DPS (using my own build, of course, couldn't load yours because Mids wasn't liking your data chunk) only got 211.9 DPS. I'm trying to figure out why exactly there's such a disparity (especially since I assume 100% chance to hit). The FU>Focus>Slash>Wait attack chain that I'm assuming manages ~215.
Just looking at your numbers though, I can see at least one thing that's blatantly wrong. You've got Focus listed as having a base damage of 106.4 in the FU>Evis>Focus chain when the base damage is only 86.96 while you've listed it correctly as having 87 damage in the FU>Focus>Slash attack chain. Fixing that error correctly displays the DPS of the FU>Evis>Focus chain as being 226. |
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Quote:
I have this but only because I could buy it for 5000 and get all the salvage for under 2mill as oposed to the last 3 part IO that I couldn't buy for 20mil.|
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
Werner, do you use Decimation: Chance for Build-Up in Focus?
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But hey, when it goes my spin now dows 330ish damage and I am 5 slotted decis.
Be well, people of CoH.