Fire/Kin/Stone build needs feedback & evaluations
By
bracass,
Posted on: 2009-09-07 20:49 in Controllers
Folonius, look at your combat channel and read off the enemy tohit chances from these bosses. You will find them to exactly match what the tohit formula predicts. The only way the enemies would have a lower chance to hit you at 65% than 45% is if they have tohit bonuses, or if they were debuffing your defense and the extra 20% provided a cushion against that.
Simply trying to count hits, especially over such a short time period, isn't going to give reliable results. If you really want to try and gather reliable data to show the effect you are reporting, get herostats and record a statistically significant number of missions.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
ignitros....can ias kbefore anything else what your planning to do with the fire/kin?...are you building him to farm or team?
Quote:
I do team quite a bit. I moslty use Pyro for farming. Battle Maiden, Demons and Freaks. I don't want to go totally farm spec but leaning to that side. I hope that makes sense.|
Originally Posted by Coldmed
ignitros....can ias kbefore anything else what your planning to do with the fire/kin?...are you building him to farm or team?
|
I did post both the build I run now in the fire/kin/fire build and the proposed fire/kin/stone build I have been tinkering with on test. I have also looked at the /psi combo too but I'm very unfamiliar with it so probably not going with it unless someone can show me a post i16 build that will outdo either /fire or /stone.
Quote:
My last day of subscription is the 13th, which is a saturday. I'll try to get herostat, and keep count of the damage that occurs from lvl 50 and lvl 52 groups, and I'll keep my defense at 45%. I'll post the results here if I get the chance. No promises since my wife plans out my weekends |
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Folonius, look at your combat channel and read off the enemy tohit chances from these bosses. You will find them to exactly match what the tohit formula predicts. The only way the enemies would have a lower chance to hit you at 65% than 45% is if they have tohit bonuses, or if they were debuffing your defense and the extra 20% provided a cushion against that.
Simply trying to count hits, especially over such a short time period, isn't going to give reliable results. If you really want to try and gather reliable data to show the effect you are reporting, get herostats and record a statistically significant number of missions. |
Quote:
Know the feeling |
Originally Posted by Folonius
My last day of subscription is the 13th, which is a saturday. I'll try to get herostat, and keep count of the damage that occurs from lvl 50 and lvl 52 groups, and I'll keep my defense at 45%. I'll post the results here if I get the chance. No promises since my wife plans out my weekends
|
But seriously, on a side note, 45% is the soft cap for any foe (unless they are +6) but having more than 45% is not useless.
If you figh foes that have -def, on a blaster that has no -def resistance, you may get true benefit from extra defense over the cap since as soon as one debuff lands you start loosing defense and more blows land with more -def. Most guns do this, and there are a wide range of energy attacks (specially kheledian type like the high level PPD villains face a lot) that do the same.
Also, if a foe has a to-hit buff, like leadership, then you also get benefit from more def over the cap. These situations may actually be common depending on the type of foe you face. Nemesis lts cast vengance uppon defeat, and this gives all surviving Nemesis such to-hit buffs.
So you may not be crazy, you may have just tried against some foes that have +tohit. Heroside they are not that common, thoug. The biggest case tends to be Nemesis and you can just make sure to kill the lts last.
Quote:
So the screenshots from Dersk weren't enough huh?
|
Originally Posted by Folonius
My last day of subscription is the 13th, which is a saturday. I'll try to get herostat, and keep count of the damage that occurs from lvl 50 and lvl 52 groups, and I'll keep my defense at 45%. I'll post the results here if I get the chance. No promises since my wife plans out my weekends
|
Quote:
The dispute is not that there is a difference in damage between lvl 50 and lvl 52 groups, since there is a difference in accuracy (1.0 vs. 1.2 I believe). That is reflected in the screenshots that Dersk provided.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
My last day of subscription is the 13th, which is a saturday. I'll try to get herostat, and keep count of the damage that occurs from lvl 50 and lvl 52 groups, and I'll keep my defense at 45%. I'll post the results here if I get the chance. No promises since my wife plans out my weekends
|
The issue is that you said more than 45% defense increases your protection, which is not the case. At 45% defense the to-hit is already floored, so unless their to-hit has been buffed, or you have been debuffed (which means you no longer have 45% defense) that's as good as it gets.
Ignitros, sorry to have gotten so far off-thread, but want to make sure you get the right information. I don't have Mid's at work either, and Folonius is right-on with this assumption:
Quote:
If you aren't building for defense, I would stick with fire epic as the resistance shield will provide more reliable damage mitigation.
|
Originally Posted by Folonius
I don't have Mids at work, I assumed he's going for S/L Defense with stone epic.
|
I make builds based on my experiences. If there is a better way to slot stone I"m all ears. I dont have any qualms about slotting anything differently. I made the thread to elicit feedback and possibly get more options to try. I'll never learn anything new if I never know about it.
It's not about slotting stone directly. The point is that the only reason to take stone over fire is to try to soft cap S/L defense. If you're not going to work towards that defense cap in your overall IO build, then you'd be better off taking the Fire pool.
Quote:
hmm, didn't think of that. Damage is going to be higher simply because higher level mobs hit harder. The best way to try this then is to fight lvl 52 mobs at 45% defense, then up it to 55% defense. If I'm wrong, then the damage received over a long period of time should be relativly close in number.|
Originally Posted by Grimlek
The dispute is not that there is a difference in damage between lvl 50 and lvl 52 groups, since there is a difference in accuracy (1.0 vs. 1.2 I believe). That is reflected in the screenshots that Dersk provided.
The issue is that you said more than 45% defense increases your protection, which is not the case. At 45% defense the to-hit is already floored, so unless their to-hit has been buffed, or you have been debuffed (which means you no longer have 45% defense) that's as good as it gets. |
I've never used herostats, but I'm assuming it keeps track of damage received?
Quote:
Names of attacks, number of times used, accuracy, total damage, average damage, etc, as well as totals of all attacks.
|
Originally Posted by Folonius
I've never used herostats, but I'm assuming it keeps track of damage received?
|
Hello. You are wrong. Here is why :
chance tohit = ( (base tohit - tohit debuff - foe defense ) * (1 + (accuracy buff - accuracy debuff)))
These values are clamped at 95% and 5%.
A basic even con foe will have ((50- tohit debuff - your defense) * (1 + 0 - accuracy debuff) or simply 50% chance tohit.
Bosses get a 30% accuracy buff so an even con boss looks like:
((50- tohit debuff - your defense) * (1 + 0.3)) or 65% chance tohit a player with no defense
Now lets account for 45% defense:
((50- 45) * (1 + 0.3)) = 5 * 1.3 = 6.5% chance tohit
Lets account for 55% defense
((50- 55) * (1 + 0.3)) = CLAMP TO 5 * 1.3 = 6.5% chance tohit
Additionally lets go for a +2 boss which gets 20% accuracy for being +2 and 30% accuracy for being a boss (a total of 50% accuracy)
((50- tohit debuff - your defense) * (1 + 0.5)) or 75% chance tohit a player with no defense
Now lets account for 45% defense:
((50- 45) * (1 + 0.5)) = 5 * 1.5 = 7.5% chance tohit
Lets account for 55% defense
((50- 55) * (1 + 0.5)) = CLAMP TO 5 * 1.5 = 7.5% chance tohit
For shinzengigels lets look at 1 million defense:
((50 - 1 million defense) * (1 + 0.5)) = CLAMP TO 5 * 1.5 = 7.5% chance tohit
The reason having more than 45% defense does nothing for you is because chance tohit is clamped to 5% AND THEN accuracy is applied to it. You reduce a foes final chance tohit down to 10% of his chance tohit a player with no defense, which means you get 90% mitigation. No matter how much defense you get that is the limitation of defense due to clamping values in the calculations.
You will 'feel' like you are taking more damage because you are taking more damage against higher con foes that hit much harder. You only statistically take 10% of the damage, but 10% of 100 vs 10% of 1000 is an order of magnitude in difference. No amount of defense will improve this mathematical certainty.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Quote:
I see what you're saying and I have no problems with changing anything in my build to help. I have nothing that I'm not willing to change about this build. I'm going to use it as my 2nd build and keep the fire so that I have the best of both worlds.|
Originally Posted by jthig32
It's not about slotting stone directly. The point is that the only reason to take stone over fire is to try to soft cap S/L defense. If you're not going to work towards that defense cap in your overall IO build, then you'd be better off taking the Fire pool.
|
I would be greatly appreciative of any builds you could provide as a guideline.
This is not a final build, and based on what you posted originally, you can afford much more than this. However, as an example keep in mind an expensive build is not always the most effective build. I think this cost me around 150mil total IIRC. Edit: minus the Numina's and Miracle of course, I actually got lucky rolling tickets on those.
This should give you some ideas, and that's really all it's for. I'm sure there are much better options that cost a bit more and that's what I'll be aiming for later.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Wushu: Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Char -- Para-Acc/Hold/Rchg(A), Para-Acc/Rchg(31), EoCur-EndRdx/Hold(40), EoCur-Hold/Rng(43)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Acc-I(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(7), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(13), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Heal(15), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 2: Fire Cages -- Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(3), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(3), Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(5), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(5), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(7)
Level 4: Siphon Power -- Acc-I(A)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 8: Hot Feet -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(9), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(9), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(11), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(13)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- Acc-I(A), CtlSpd-Acc/EndRdx(17), CtlSpd-Acc/Slow(34), CtlSpd-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(34), CtlSpd-Rng/Slow(34), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 12: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 14: Health -- Heal-I(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(37), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(43)
Level 16: Flashfire -- Stgr-Acc/Stun/Rchg(A), Stgr-Acc/Rchg(17), Rope-Acc/Stun/Rchg(19), Rope-Acc/Rchg(19), Rope-Acc/EndRdx(23), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 18: Cinders -- Para-Acc/Hold/Rchg(A), Para-Acc/Rchg(27), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg(27), EoCur-Acc/Rchg(46), NrncSD-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Speed Boost -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(29), S'fstPrt-ResKB(29)
Level 30: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(31)
Level 32: Fire Imps -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(33), Dmg-I(33), Dmg-I(33), Dmg-I(50)
Level 35: Transference -- Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(36), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(36), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(36), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(37), Efficacy-EndMod(37)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Fissure -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(42), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(42), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(42), AirB'st-Acc/Dmg(43)
Level 44: Rock Armor -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(45), DefBuff-I(45)
Level 47: Seismic Smash -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(48), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(48), B'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(50), B'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Super Speed -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Containment
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 2.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 13% Defense(Smashing)
- 13% Defense(Lethal)
- 3.94% Defense(Fire)
- 3.94% Defense(Cold)
- 3% Defense(Energy)
- 3% Defense(Negative)
- 3% Defense(Psionic)
- 11.8% Defense(Melee)
- 3% Defense(Ranged)
- 4.88% Defense(AoE)
- 13.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 4% Enhancement(Heal)
- 2% Enhancement(RunSpeed)
- 3% Enhancement(Immobilize)
- 2% Enhancement(FlySpeed)
- 2% Enhancement(JumpHeight)
- 2% Enhancement(JumpSpeed)
- 42 HP (4.13%) HitPoints
- Knockback (Mag -4)
- Knockup (Mag -4)
- MezResist(Immobilize) 3.85%
- MezResist(Sleep) 3.3%
- MezResist(Stun) 1.65%
- MezResist(Terrorized) 5.5%
- 6% (0.1 End/sec) Recovery
- 16% (0.68 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 3.15% Resistance(Fire)
- 3.15% Resistance(Cold)
- 1.88% Resistance(Energy)
- 1.88% Resistance(Negative)
- 2% RunSpeed
- 1% XPDebtProtection
Main feature is soft-capped smashing and lethal defense, and it's only intended to be effective until I earn what I need to upgrade
I threw this together if you were looking for something that was not quite so "entry level":
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Wushu: Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Char -- Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(7), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(39), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(46), Apoc-Dam%(46)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(A), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Nictus-Acc/Heal(5), Nictus-Heal/HP/Regen/Rchg(15), Nictus-%Dam(39)
Level 2: Fire Cages -- GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A), GravAnch-Acc/Rchg(3), GravAnch-Immob/Rchg(3), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx(7), GravAnch-Hold%(15), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(37)
Level 4: Siphon Power -- Acc-I(A)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- Krma-ResKB(A)
Level 8: Hot Feet -- CtlSpd-Acc/Slow(A), CtlSpd-Dmg/Slow(9), CtlSpd-Acc/EndRdx(9), CtlSpd-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(13), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(40)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- CtlSpd-Acc/EndRdx(A), CtlSpd-Acc/Slow(11), CtlSpd-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(11), CtlSpd-Rng/Slow(13)
Level 12: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(50)
Level 16: Flashfire -- RzDz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(A), RzDz-Acc/EndRdx(17), RzDz-Acc/Rchg(17), RzDz-EndRdx/Stun(25), RzDz-Immob%(27)
Level 18: Cinders -- UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(A), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(19), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(19), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(25), UbrkCons-Dam%(27)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(21), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(50)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 24: Super Speed -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(40), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(40), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 28: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam(29), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(34), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(46)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31), LkGmblr-Def(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 32: Fire Imps -- SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg(A), SvgnRt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), SvgnRt-Acc/EndRdx(33), SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), SvgnRt-Acc(34), SvgnRt-PetResDam(43)
Level 35: Transference -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(36), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(37), P'Shift-End%(37)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 41: Fissure -- Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(42), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(42), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Ragnrk-Knock%(43)
Level 44: Rock Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(45), LkGmblr-Def(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 47: Seismic Smash -- Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(48), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(48), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Hectmb-Dam%(50)
Level 49: Earth's Embrace -- RechRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Containment
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
- 6.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 6.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 6.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 6.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 6.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 6.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 6.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 6.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 13.3% Defense(Smashing)
- 13.3% Defense(Lethal)
- 4.56% Defense(Fire)
- 4.56% Defense(Cold)
- 4.25% Defense(Energy)
- 4.25% Defense(Negative)
- 3% Defense(Psionic)
- 12.4% Defense(Melee)
- 3.63% Defense(Ranged)
- 6.13% Defense(AoE)
- 2.25% Max End
- 2% Enhancement(Stun)
- 87% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 5% Enhancement(Heal)
- 4% Enhancement(RunSpeed)
- 4% Enhancement(JumpSpeed)
- 4% Enhancement(FlySpeed)
- 4% Enhancement(JumpHeight)
- 65% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 10% FlySpeed
- 122.1 HP (12%) HitPoints
- 10% JumpHeight
- 10% JumpSpeed
- Knockback (Mag -4)
- Knockup (Mag -4)
- MezResist(Confused) 2.75%
- MezResist(Held) 2.75%
- MezResist(Immobilize) 6.05%
- MezResist(Sleep) 2.75%
- MezResist(Stun) 2.75%
- 20.5% (0.34 End/sec) Recovery
- 36% (1.53 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 10% Resistance(Smashing)
- 10% Resistance(Lethal)
- 20.1% Resistance(Fire)
- 20.1% Resistance(Cold)
- 10% Resistance(Energy)
- 10% Resistance(Negative)
- 10% Resistance(Toxic)
- 10% Resistance(Psionic)
- 10% RunSpeed
What's with all these builds with only one recharge in Fulcrum Shift?
Do you even need +Recovery uniques if you are taking Transference?
Quote:
Hehe, that's not the build I'm using if you're referring to the second one I posted. With 65% global recharge, Fulcrum Shift doesn't need a lot.|
Originally Posted by Kawless
What's with all these builds with only one recharge in Fulcrum Shift?
Do you even need +Recovery uniques if you are taking Transference? |
I random rolled a Numina's Unique and a Miracle Unique back-to-back last week (they were 2 out of the 3 rolls I made), so that's why they are also in the cheaper build I had posted as well. You're right, they are not neccessary, though.
I guess I need to get over the fact that I assume people won't take my build advice seriously if it doesn't have a bunch of "expensive stuff" in it. I prefer to build with yellow sets that add defense though, and I use quite a few very effective, cheap (if you call 100mil cheap) builds myself.
If you think the hitchance shown in game isn't accurate, please enlighten us with the logs, preferably from herostats, that you used to reach such a conclusion, because I think you're throwing away years of analysis without any of your own.