These so called epics...

There were lots of VEATs around when I levelled my Spider, just after they were first introduced, but by the time I played a widow I think most players had gone back to blueside - redside on Union isn't that busy at the best of times. Admittedly I prefer to duo and mostly levelled my Spider with my friend's Widow, and he leveled his Spider with my Widow - never had any survivability issues at all, but VEATs just felt underpowered damage-wise at low level compared to brutes/blasters etc (plus I got very bored of the gun attacks on my spider), whereas my Warshade was doing great damage from L6+ and from L12+ I was seeking out big spawns in hazard zones and levelling so fast, but admittedly wasn't as survivable.

Yeah that's what I figured - I was planning to go bi-form human/dwarf anyway (maybe just use nova for very low level then respec it out) as I couldn't see many advantages to PB's nova when compared to its human form attacks/shields. Whereas on my WS I could eventually self-cap resists at 85% and almost reach the damage and ToHit caps on my own, on an almost permanent basis, and in nova form too (even tanked Rom once in nova).

I guess PBs are better for soloing regular missions - at least until I16 when a WS will be able to get big spawns when solo. Otherwise I just don't really see a niche for the PB at all. Sure, PB used to arguably be better tanks for a team than WS in dwarf because they could spam their PBAE more often to hold aggro, but with the WS change to dwarf mire that's no longer true - plus WS dwarf tanks can hit higher resist numbers at high level thanks to Eclipse (only takes 5 targets to cap human/nova form resists on my WS, and it's almost capped with 4, and takes even less targets to cap dwarf resists) and be far more survivable than a PB while doing better damage too.

This is all that needs to be said.

Not surprisingly, I disagree. While I generally think most Red side content is stupid, I thought the VEAT arcs were much more entertaining than the HEAT arcs.

HEATs plain out suck until the 20s. Then they're tolerable solo, and actually pretty good in teams. But they never ever give you that epic feeling like VEATs do IMO.

I'm almost the exact opposite. I prefer all of the regular non-EAT content redside to most of blueside. Striga, Croatoa and Faultline are okay, but pre-I2 contacts/missions can be very dull I find - and yet they should feel fresher to me considering I've mostly played on redside. That's mainly because the writing on the contacts is so much better redside because they can actually tie the mission writing to the contact, rather than most normal contacts blueside who are offering missions/arcs that 4-5 other contacts also offer.

Plus the creators of the CoV mission gameplay had the advantage of being able to learn from CoH's mistakes and make better use of their codebase because they had developed it further and were more experienced in its application. The mission writing on all 20 contacts in Grandville in particular is better than anything blueside at any level, imho, (and sadly better than most new missions we've had since I12 too) and even looking at lower level I can say that nothing on blueside ever engaged me emotionally like the Seer Marino arc does on redside.

So I'm not biased when I say that when it comes to the VEAT arcs they just seemed like a bunch of stuff that happened, rather than a gradually building epic storyline. While the HEATs investigate their arch-nemeses in the world (the Nictus) and eventually foil a plot that threatens the whole planet (what can be more epic than that? Well, except saving the universe ), the VEATs are getting mucked around by idiots like Brick Johnson, either doing pointless petty jobs or yo-yo-ing between "am I, or aren't I?" in the rather tired Destined One storyline. For a finale the HEATs get to take down the two architects of the global plot, the Nictus leaders, while the VEATs get a single mission thrown at them to go beat-up Statesman... just for the kudos... with absolutely nothing leading up to it plot-wise.

As far as gameplay goes I don't find VEATs or Warshades more epic than each other (I can't comment for Peacebringers), though Warshades are certainly more flashy with their powers and the shapeshifting seems rather epic to me, compared to using attacks that we've seen in regular powersets for years (Crabs exempted, of course, which is why they were the first VEAT branch I played to L50). Sure, I generally prefer playing my VEATs over my Warshade, but that's subjective and probably biased both by my preference for redside content/zones and the fact I've poured a lot more inf into my VEATs.

In duos I found the VEATs much slower to develop - my Warshade had most of his playstyle and core powers nailed down by L22, with just pets and eclipse to come later (at L32 and L38 respectively), and felt fairly powerful from L6 onwards - and that was pre-Inventions and pre- the scaling +ToHit for low levels too. Though in that respect I guess the VEATs were more fun in the later levels because there were still powers I felt I desperately needed (or just really wanted) all the way to L50. By comparison 9 of my Warshade's final 11 powers (after L22) were utility/QoL powers or just things that might be fun in rare situations, but stuff that was not required in my core gameplay and that I could easily live without (tbh I wish I could have traded some of those power picks for more slots). As an upshot, when it comes to exemping the Warshade loses far less of his ability than the VEATs do (not that I exemp much).

I guess it comes down to whether you feel it's more epic saving the world or serving your own vanity - and whether you feel it's more epic being part alien and linked into an intergalactic war, or a supervillain's minion who got fed up taking orders - or just the simple question of whether you want to be a good guy or a bad guy.

IMO, that 'advantage' of redside is also it's greatest drawback. Because the story 9 times out of 10 is the contact's story. You're just their hired thug. By contrast, the contacts most times in CoH aren't the point. YOU ARE. You're saving the day.

With 5 characters so far either at 50 or in the 40s, I still haven't bothered to finish all the Grandville content I find it so terrible. Especially, the devs' attempt at 'evil' Westin Phipps. Gah... It hurts thinking about it.

I'd run "To Save a Soul" five times for any of those terrible arcs. Efficiency Expert Pither is OK, if only because it's all short.


I'm probably am biased when I say, that what I like about the VEAT arcs is how they expose the shallowness and absurdity of the "Destined One" plot. The VEATs to me are ultra-cool. They see all this nonsense their boss is up to for the farce that it is. The only thing that would make it better is if the VEATs could instigate an insurrection.

You got to the critical issue. Most of the 'villains' of CoV are hired thugs and nothing more. The VEATs know this is all BS. And they say to hell with it, I'll show this *&%# who's a "Destined One."

As for the HEATs, it all ends well, but the arcs leading up to it are so much filler. I despaired in the 20s when there were much more entertaining arcs like the Freakalympics to do.

I've got to say, at least the HEATs have arcs from 1-50. Through several of the ranges for VEATs, it's one mission, then you're done. And they're not even worth merits. I mean, longer isn't necessarily better, but I expect my supposed "story-focused" AT to have a bit more of a story.

By and large, I'm going in the HEATS>VEATS camp too. That said, while I rather enjoy my Huntsman, and I really like my WS, I'll take a good brute over either any day of the week.

Would that be all the single-mission, why did you bother "arcs?" Or the "Hey, let's have a metagame exposition and call it a misison" 'arc' at the end?

I'm not saying this just because we disagree. I really can't see how anyone can call the story "arcs" for VEATs worthy of an epic (story-based) AT, when the ones from 30-50 *combined* would make a total of one normal arc - even redside.

Of course, it did irritate me enough to write up a two part arc specifically for banes.

/takes nova in, clears out Perez's streets singlehandedly with nova form.

Honestly, I have yet to have any of the VEATs I've run feel "epic." Unless the world "pain" or "fail" follows. And every time the discussion comes up, it seems VEATs have one of two things mentioned: "Of course they're great, get a team of (x) of them together!" (so ... they're not fine solo?) or "They're great for the team buffs." I don't hear much of play, soloing, etc. mentioned - and to be honest, as I was leveling, I figured I could be doing the same thing with a Brute or Stalker with Leadership. *shrug*

Like I said, though - hoping the crab at least grabs me. Have to get it to the branching levels though, which itself still feels like slogging through to me. I wish the branching came earlier so it didn't feel like such a waste of 23 levels to me. I loved the idea of the mechanic when it came out in beta, but it's soured on me. Too late for a remake now, but I'd do it at 14 or so.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I really don't see what your beef is with them. The story doesn't drag on with tedious exposition. Sorry.



Well, I don't know if you feel soloing AVs and 8 man spawns in the RWZ "fine" at soloing, but that's what I do.

There's no *story* to be had.

There's a difference between, say, Robert Jordan's "Wheel of time" series (dragging on,) a good novel or trilogy of novels, and "See jane run."

The VEAT arcs turn from, potentially, a novel - a short one, at that - to "see jane run." Level 30? "Run, jane run." Level 35, another sentence. When I hit 30 and saw the 1-2 mission "arc" that did... well, nothing, my reaction was quite plainly "WTF." And my SG mates will attest to that. I was so *irritated* and disappointed I nearly deleted the character right there. (Not to mention the repetition of "You're a destined one!" "No, wait, you're not." "Just kidding, yes you are." "Nope.")

"Tedious exposition?" I don't see the Kheld arcs as tedious - and you know what's going ON with them when you're done. The VEAT "arcs" (if you can call sets of *one to two missions* an arc with a straight face) are very hollow and disappointing. Of course, ending with the last "Oh, by the way, here's a somewhat awkward speech to try to cram a metagame mechanic (power proliferation) into the game world." doesn't make it any better. If they'd stopped with Kalinda's speech, at least it would have gone out with some dignity.

Edit:

You learn more about being Banes and Forts (not Crabs, obviously) in one arc from Westin Phipps than you do in the *entire* 1-50 stretch of the VEAT arcs. And that, to me, is just *wrong.* Given the general quality of writing in most of the COV arcs (even if they tend to be short) and the expansion of the Kheld story versus what little you learn as a regular AT, yes, the VEAT arcs are a horrible letdown. I wrote up that Kheld backstory guide ... what is it, a few years ago now? and enjoyed it. If I wanted to do the same for a VEAT, well - "You want to be one of the destined ones. You're played for a sucker. You get pissy and decide to try to beat up recluse anyway. The end." I'm just not satisfied with that in the least.

With how much dumped in for IOs? I'll be honest, I'm really *not* impressed by "with multi billion INF builds I can do this" as a measure of an AT. (Or even, really, with "fully IO'd out and a ton of bonuses" builds.) Interesting as far as exercises, yes. Do it with straight SOs and I'll accept that's the built in potential of the AT.

See my Guides and Tutorials

That's the rub. It's extremely cheap for my Widow. I don't think I've spent more than 50 million on her for soft-capped defense and extreme DPS. Now I play a lot of TFs so I was able to earn some stuff via merits that would have cost a lot, but this isn't some purpled out build.

Saying "doing it with SOs" is meaningless. That game is gone. Peacebringers can't do some of this stuff at all. Warshades may be able to solo an AV. If I can stomach the time building it out, I might try it. The VEATs do it with uncommon sets.

I do see what people see in Warshades. But it's really just a lot of flash. Ultimately, VEATs do it with less mess.

What do you learn? Banes + Forts are psychic. Banes look inward towards each other; Forts look outward towards the future.

That's it.

The VEAT storyline tells you a lot more about how Fortunatas think, it actually shows you how one might wind up a Fortunata. The VEAT arcs put a lot of color around the Destined one storyline. The VEAT storyline gives us a glimpse into what folks who didn't show up on Kalinda's "Destined One" list think about it and want to do about it.

You didn't like them. That's cool, this is a matter of preference. But the fact that they're short doesn't mean they don't have a good story. It's one of the better ones in CoV IMO. Well, except for the last mission. I'll agree with you that's rather gratuitous. But beating up Statesman is fun.

One man's "tedious exposition" is another man's "wellspring of lore".

This was how I felt too - the HEAT arcs feel like arcs, while the VEAT missions have about as much dramatic impact and lore as a newspaper/police-band mission. Like you I just didn't find the VEAT arcs satisfying in any way. The Devs had told us repeatedly that epic archetypes were about how epic their story was, not about being epic in gameplay, then they deliver us VEATs with almost no story at all. As much as I love the VEATs in gameplay terms, I still felt cheated.

Ditto, but the fact is I find the different VEATs and Warshades excel at different things - for AV-level single targets my Widow is likely to be fastest (best dps), though occasionally my Bane is (best burst, better end-efficiency, smash not lethal, -res debuffs) - but against a full regular 8-man hazard spawn the Widow is slow chewing through minions/lieuts compared to the Bane (Venom Grenade + Crowd Control crits), who is slower than his Crab build - but they're all easily beaten by the Warshade who can take down a full spawn faster than anything I have except possibly my Archery/En blaster (who only beats the Warshade for burst area damage thanks to RoA, but loses out on survivability and on area dps on longer fights such as against +4s).

Honestly if I had to pick one of the EAT archetypes/branches to do all content with it would be the Bane, just because they're great at pretty much everything, on top of being the best for burst damage on a single target. Sure, the Widow can out-dps them over time and the Warshade and Crab have better area damage, and the Fort has better ranged damage and control, but my Bane really can do it all to a very impressive degree.

I have to agree with Geko to some extent, but I do see your perspective too Bill. The SO game is gone for me, but maybe not for everyone. I haven't slotted an SO into any of my characters since I12 (and I was on hiatus from the game between I9 and I12) - but I can appreciate there are still players who aren't interested in IOs beyond just frankenslotting (indeed, frankenslotting is all I tend to do until the later levels). But I don't think you can look at archetypes in isolation from inventions anymore - some archetypes just gain more from IOs than others and to a lot of players that is now part of the built-in potential of the AT. It certainly is to me.

Take Widows and Banes for example - there's still this perception that Banes are much weaker, especially in survivability - and on SOs yeah that's probably true, because Widows can certainly get much higher defence than Banes without using set bonuses. Add inventions and the gap narrows so much.

Admittedly I've spent 1.5bill inf on my Bane (and about the same on his Crab build) and now his performance is very close to that of my Widow on whom I've spent around 2.5bill inf (and I'm about to spend the same on her Fort build, but I'm waiting til post-I16 to bid) - so the Bane gained more from IOs than the Widow even though she spent more inf - he cured his main weakness (survivability) while to some extent she still suffers from hers (endurance inefficiency).

My Warshade only has one purple set atm and is still mostly frankenslotted with cheap IOs, and yet he can still mow down non-AV spawns faster than any of my VEATs. I will probably purple him fully eventually, but I don't think he'll gain as much as the VEATs did from IOs. Sure, I could try to softcap his def (he has around 20% def atm), but he already has perma-eclipse so it won't add much survivability except to avoid a few more mezzes - and more recharge won't help much either, except perhaps to get another pet out.

Imho VEATs just gain more from IOs than HEATs, and because some VEAT branches can solo AVs so handily it just overshadows what HEATs can do - or at least what Warshades can do, which is taking out whole spawns very quickly (faster than VEATs). Oddly enough you don't see Crabs being derided as rubbish because they can't solo AVs like a Widow/Bane/Fort can, and in my experience a Warshade played well can outdo a Crab at their own game (area damage and pet damage).

And sadly that brings me to why I haven't played a Peacebringer yet - because whether it's on SOs or IOs, with merely a couple of hundred million inf spent or over a billion inf spent, I just don't see how a Peacebringer could excel at anything compared to any of the other EATs. I will play one eventually just for the sake of completism, but I think PBs need an overhaul to give them something they can be best at (and tanking would be my suggestion - I'd give their dwarf form a nice big taunt/debuff aura, with warshade dwarfs receiving a much smaller damage aura with less taunt - I'd also give both of them a small amount of passive mez protection in human form).

Yet that's still where the game's balanced at. Imagine if doms had been balanced around "Well, a few people can triple-stack Domination, we need to balance around that." How heavily gutted would that be? Or even around double stacking it... or permadom on its own? Would you rather the Scrapper game (for another example) be based off BillZBubba's "Let me solo a mission set for 8 with groups of nothing but AVs," or "You can do this with SOs?" (Or common IOs, for that matter?)

It's one of the things that irks me with the forums generally, as well - yes, it's nice that with X build at 50 and all these IOs you can do such and such, but that doesn't give me a baseline, nor does it help at level 10, 20, 30 while you're trying to get up there.
I think you're reading too much into them. The whole second half could fit in one arc, and they could have expanded FAR more. It shows you how one might end up a fortunata? You get that in phipps, as well. Where's the impact you have, being a Bane but operating on your own? How have you escaped the "hive mind?" Oh, wait, two missions total that say "you're being jerked around." They're *not worth doing.* They're lazy writing that feel like the story was completely ignored until a week before they had to be pushed out.
They'd be a good story. They'd be a good story *arc.* You can combine all of them into one 5-mission story arc and free up space to write something more interesting.

Going genre-specific, they're the equivalent of taking a (standard sized) comic book, tearing out the pages, and selling one to two pages of THAT each month. They're disappointing, unfulfilling, and rather slipshod. Frankly, had time been put into them, they COULD have been an interesting story instead of the farce they are now. Heck, they could have gone into the impact you have depending on the branch and AT you choose - doing the early Kheld arc (where PBs and WS start on independent arcs, then join the overall Kheld war storyline) in reverse.

Where the other COV arcs are a decent steak dinner, the VEAT arcs are a grilled cheese sandwich with the bread replaced with cardboard.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I feel that the biggest mistake was giving them the pseudo Leadership power(I use pseudo loosely) which are pretty much the main dish till lvl 24, and even then you're going to grab one of them. The Stamina inherent is nice, but it isn't felt. Especially when you start off running atleast three toggles.

The big difference here is the hero counter part. Which comes with two forms (human being the default). A tanking and an all out blasting form. Now while SoA can tank, they do so with several requirements. Night widows have Elude and Soldiers use a mixture of spiderlings and Frenzy. This is not to say that they are bad, just that they lack that certain strength that PB's amnd WS's get.

Having the ability to change into a tank(taunt included) is always going to be the very power that sets these epics apart. Both do tremendous damage but SoA focus on each other being on the same team for the Leadership stack, while Khelds merely need any other type of AT to add to the inherent.

Actually, they balance around averages which includes both SO builds and tricked out IO builds.

Actually, by 30 my Widow was pretty kickass, YMMV.

I recently did the 20-25 arc with my PB, some stupid story about the Council (the most plain and uninteresting villain group in the game) and their internal strife regarding Nictus. And I was bored to tears. I'm sorry, you may like that crap, but I don't. I don't think I'm reading anything into the VEAT arcs other than what's there.

It's clear that you're trying to insinuate yourself into the Destined Ones program for your own reasons. I like that. I don't care about the stupid "Hive Mind." That's a pretty ridiculous explanation for Banes, an example of the general dreck that is Grandville missions and I rejoiced that the VEAT arcs ignored that nonsense.

Hyperbole; every mission IMO is the equivalent of a comic book. From the time the contact sends you off to the end of the mission would fill most modern comics.

Goodness, that would have sucked. Know why? Because then we would have to have, at least at the beginning, a good little member of Arachnos. It would be another stupid villain arc where our character doesn't think for him/her self and just does as they're told for their pay.

I like that the VEAT arcs have us as an independent operator and would hate if they were anything like the HEAT arcs (which suck! )

This is probably where we differ then - I love intrigue, strife and scheming.

I like the Council (and Arachnos for that matter) because factions with internal dissent between different Archvillains with their own agendas are a lot more interesting to me than "mysterious" yet united factions we know a lot less about (like Malta/KoA, Sky Raiders, Tsoo, and all other bland factions with very few AVs and not much lore history surrounding them).

The gameplay of the Kheldian arcs wasn't the most interesting/memorable in the world (but then it was written pre-CoV, before the devs really started to produce quality mission storylines with charismatic contact dialogue), but what made them interesting for me was the drip-fed information we learnt while running the interlinked storylines surrounding Lillian Issan, which gradually built up a picture of the Council and how their arch-villains interact with each other (especially Requiem, Arakhn and The Center) and with the Nictus.

I just adore those clues you get on the Kheldian arcs (and also on some Striga arcs and the Mutation origin arc "A Path into Darkness") which are basically email/letter communications between Council leaders or diary entries. They give you a much more personal insight into that faction, which you just don't get from mission briefings or from reading the lore pages on the official website.

Of course if you prefer storylines and factions that leave a lot of gaps and don't tell you much about anything so you can insert your own interpretations/motivations then of course you're going to dislike the Kheldian missions and most of Grandville, for the same reason I dislike the thin/bland stories attached to newspaper missions. Where you see a linear storyline I see a chance to learn more about the world.

Oh btw if you hate The Council you better avoid MA arcID 220049 - it's wholly inspired by those email/letter clues in the Dev-made content between Requiem, Arakhn and The Center.

That's not clear to me at all. Alan Desslock seems to be telling you what to think from the start:

"So you're decided you're tired of all these 'Destined Ones', eh? Well, maybe we can work together and do something about it."

But then on the opening mission he says:

"So, you come to me because you want to pretend you are a Destined One, eh? Want all the perks that go with being one of the few, the proud, the Tools of Lord Recluse?!
(Source)

So yeah, not a great opening - we're so tired of Destined Ones that we decide to pretend we're one of them. Great plan! Thanks Alan! Then we spend most of the next 45 levels fretting and vacillating between "am I, or aren't I a Destined One?" before finding out our persistence supposedly made us one. Well that's really going to help the fact we're tired of all those potential Destined Ones - we just supplanted them!

Then, for a finale, we go beat up Statesman for kicks, because hey, we're the Destined One and... errrr... I guess that's what we're supposed to do.

Truly epic...

I guess that's part of it for me. I don't mind a story, but I don't want it spoon fed to me. I like filling in the gaps.

One of the things I like about the supposedly "weaker" CoH storyline is that you have to learn about the different villain groups in a lot of different ways. From history plaques, multiple story arcs which only give you a bit of the story, etc.

I think that's why I like VEATs so much. They're story arc really is a pallette, if you consider it in context with other things we know about the world it makes a ton of sense. No it's not all self-contained and thank goodness for that. I neither desire nor require having it all laid out in front of me.

Add that to the fact that VEATs are solid performers without the gimmicks that the CoV ATs (and the HEATs) require, and you have an AT that I adore.

Yeah that's definitely where we differ then. Personally I look at quests as a way to find out more about the world, because I love learning the lore but I don't roleplay - I think that stems from the fact that in my pen & paper RPG days I was always the GM/DM (and preferred that role) but hardly ever a player. So I like writing character bios (for fun, and for others to read as I like reading bios), but after that I'm not too fussed whether the missions suit my character or fit their motivations - I just want to enjoy the basic gameplay and learn more about the game/lore.

I adore the VEATs - I wouldn't have spent 5+ billion inf and counting (i.e. another 2+ billion inf saved to purple up my Fort) on both of mine so far if I didn't enjoy playing them. There's only two things I dislike about VEATs really - the "thin" storyline lore-wise (personally I would have liked starting out as a loyal Arachnos grunt) and the fact that despite a big inf spend I still can't end-balance my Widow (though her end issues are only noticeable when trying to solo pylons and certain AVs).

A *single mission* "arc" would fill "most modern comic books?" A three panel comic STRIP maybe.

The HEAT arcs at least have story - and you assume a lot about how you'd have to start, *or* how they would progress. Think about it a bit. Or, say, check out some VEAT arcs in AE.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Proof of concept:

Shaman: Lightning bolt
Druid: Wrath

One's light white/blue, the other is solid green.

Yeah it would.
Apparently you don't read the contact text, the clues, the sending text, the boss quotes, the enter building text, the return to contact text, or the turn-in mish text.

Not to mention that during combat most comic books have the main character think and react, which is at least 3 or 4 pages.

Extend the boss fight that you see in game to have dialog during the fight (which most big fights have), and you easily have two books.

But yeah, if all you do is talk to contact, get mish, click through text, open door, fight, call contact, click through text again, you can do that in one comic page.