Resistance resisting resistance debuffs
By
Brimstone Bruce,
Posted on: 2009-08-10 02:13 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Your conclusions are correct. The issue that many people bring up with using those debuffs on targets with high levels of resistance is that you're already dealing so little damage, you'd have better use spending it elsewhere. When the target has 99% resistance and you're throwing 100% -res at him, you simply making your 100 damage attacks do 2 damage instead of 1. Neither of those numbers is impressive so it's better to focus your efforts elsewhere until the peaked resist drops.
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Originally Posted by PhroX
So, by this reasoning, a res debuff will increase damage by it's percentage, regardless of what resistance the target has. Even if the foe has 99% resistance, if you put a 50% res debuff on them, you're still going to be increasing your damage by 50% (and hence it's worth using). Is this right? Have I missed something? Or are the people saying res debuffs aren't good against high res just wrong?
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Ah, that makes sense. So, if it's a temporary RES boost, do something else until it wears off, but if it's a permanent high RES, then the debuffs are as good as always 
Yep. A -Res debuff acts like a multiplier to base damage because of this.
eg a 30% Res debuff will always make you do 1.3 times as much damage as you would do without any Res debuffs applied.
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It's also an important factor if the target has 100% resistance (suchs as AVs with Unstoppable). If they're got 100% resistance, a resistance debuff won't do anything, and you still won't be doing damage.
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Originally Posted by Umbral_NA
Your conclusions are correct. The issue that many people bring up with using those debuffs on targets with high levels of resistance is that you're already dealing so little damage, you'd have better use spending it elsewhere. When the target has 99% resistance and you're throwing 100% -res at him, you simply making your 100 damage attacks do 2 damage instead of 1. Neither of those numbers is impressive so it's better to focus your efforts elsewhere until the peaked resist drops.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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The math still stands though! Before you were doing 0 damage, and then you double it and get to do 0*2 damage!
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Originally Posted by Fleeting_Whisper
It's also an important factor if the target has 100% resistance (suchs as AVs with Unstoppable). If they're got 100% resistance, a resistance debuff won't do anything, and you still won't be doing damage.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Why do I read this and hear Jayne's voice in the back of my head?|
Originally Posted by Dispari
The math still stands though! Before you were doing 0 damage, and then you double it and get to do 0*2 damage!
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*Could be misquoted a bit, my memory is vague, and my copy of Firefly is being borrowed.
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What about stacking resistance debuffs? If you debuff a foe's resistance and then do it again while they're still debuffed, will the second one debuff based on the foe's current resistance or their normal, non-debuffed resistance?
It'll be based off of their original resistance.
So with two 30% resistance debuffs, damage would come out to be:
1 * (1 + (0.3 + 0.3)) = 1.6 or +60%
And not:
1 * (1 + 0.3) * (1 + 0.3) = 1.69 or +69%
EDIT: In other words, they're additive, not multiplicative.
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Your math is correct. Because players often think of resistance debuffs adding a percentage to damage, the end result is as people expect.
Resistance resisting damage debuffs is another story.
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It's too bad it doesn't still work like it used to, where ticing debuffs would repeatedly stack with themselves and continually debuff the previous debuffed value until all enemies hit by Freezing Rain have minimum RES!
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Originally Posted by BrimstoneBruce
It'll be based off of their original resistance.
So with two 30% resistance debuffs, damage would come out to be: 1 * (1 + (0.3 + 0.3)) = 1.6 or +60% And not: 1 * (1 + 0.3) * (1 + 0.3) = 1.69 or +69% EDIT: In other words, they're additive, not multiplicative. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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As are resistance debuffs boosting damage debuffs in the same way they boost damage =)
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Your math is correct. Because players often think of resistance debuffs adding a percentage to damage, the end result is as people expect.
Resistance resisting damage debuffs is another story. |
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These I'm not aware of. What's going on here?
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Originally Posted by Silverado
As are resistance debuffs boosting damage debuffs in the same way they boost damage =)
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Using an example of a dark defender against an even level warrior boss.
Warrior boss has 20% smashing/lethal resistance. Damage resistance is also damage debuff resistance. So warrior boss also has 20% smashing/lethal damage debuff resistance.
So, if the dark defender uses Darkest Night+Twilight Grasp on the warrior boss, the boss will receive a -50% cold/fire/energy/negative/psi/toxic damage debuff as normal, but due to the boss's resistance, only a -50 x 0.8 = -40% smashing/lethal damage debuff. So, if the warrior boss hits with a smashing/lethal attack that would normally deal 300 damage, Darkest Night+Twilight Grasp only reduces it down to 180. Since warrior bosses only use smashing/lethal damage, this hurts! This is a fairly common nuisance since NPCs often have resistance to the same damage types their attacks use.
Now, the dark defender drops a Tar Patch, which drops the warrior boss's 20% smashing/lethal resistance into the negatives: -4%. Now Darkest Night+Twilight Grasp's damage debuff actually gets increased rather than reduced: -50 x 1.04 = -52%, thanks to Tar Patch. The same 300 damage attack gets reduced from 180 even further to 144, a significant help.
Note that Tar Patch also gets you within closer reach of the damage floor. With Tar Patch, Darkest Night+3 Twilight Grasps floors the warrior boss's damage, which can be done with about 86% recharge enhancements (i.e. no hasten or global recharge required). Without Tar Patch, it'd take Darkest Night+5 Twilight Grasps, which is completely impossible (you'd need to go beyond the recharge cap to pull it off). Remember this when damage flooring becomes vital, such as versus AVs and GMs.
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Basicly one of the reasons why Rad/Sonic Defenders enjoy such nice a warm blanket of survivability against hard targets: their Enervating Field which would normally debuff -25% dmg, actually debuffs closer to -50% dmg with all the -res stacking going on.
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Originally Posted by Kahlan_
These I'm not aware of. What's going on here?
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Wow, very good to know. Thanks!
That's a confusing title, but it's all I can think of. Anyway, I've seen some people saying that resistance debuffs aren't so good against foes with high resistance - say, some AVs - as the resistance resists the debuff.
Now, while I am aware of this effect - resisting res debuffs - I was always under the impression that, in practice, it has no effect on the strength of the debuff. I'll throw out some numbers to explain my thinking:
A takes 100 damage
B takes 50 damage
Now, I apply a 50% res. debuff.
A has no resistance to the debuff, so his res is reduced to -50% (0-50). Hence, he takes 150 damage, i.e a 50% increase from the original (150 vs 100).
B has 50% resistance, so the debuff is halved to 25%. Therefore, his resistance is reduced to 25% (50-25), hence he takes 75 damage, i.e. a 50% increase from the original (75 vs 50).