Why is reaching the soft-cap so important?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-08-07 11:57 in Player Guides
Excellent thread, thank you for the theorycraft.
Very good info I use this in all my builds
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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Good post overall, just wanted to comment on a few things. First to the above quote - that's why most melee toons at least have a defense debuff resistance (DDR) in many powers. The DDR applies to "Defense" in general, not a specific type or whatnot, and is usually enhanced by any defense enhancements in it. That is why many builds that focus on hitting the defense soft-cap will also focus on hitting 95% DDR....though that usually requires more infamy/influence. Say you did get to 95%DDR (most often done with Shield defense, since the Mez click power can be stacked), then even that Dark RIng mistress who hits you with a -50% defense debuff only lowers your defense by 2.5%. Granted if you're running soft-cap that makes a fairly big difference (as previously mentioned), but if you have a high DDR, and are slightly above Soft-cap, then you can stand in the middle of a group of Cimerorans and still be at soft-cap.|
Originally Posted by Neparos
Defense shouldn't be considered the be all end all though, as many enemies in the game have really cheesie counters to defense. Earth mages from the CoTs come to mind, as those stupid quick sand patches are at least -20%ish defense, and Malta Gunslingers basically ignore defense for all intents and purposes. Getting an unlucky dark ring mistress debuff can ruin your day as those are -50%(!!) defense, anything with radiation will eat your defense numbers alive, gun fire (and those roman spears...) have -def to them, and the list goes on and on... And of course, there's always that 5% probability that an AV will just non challantly smush you in a single shot. |
Countering to_hit buffs (Nemesis Colonels come to mind) on the other hand are harder to counter, and are also applied directly against your defense.
The other thing to note is the "RNG"....I put it in quotes because it isn't wholely random. Well we're told it is. But there have been many tests done and showed that it isn't fully random, you will get times where a boss will hit you 5times in a row, and you'll miss it 8times in a row, when you have a 95% chance to hit them, and they have a roughly 7.5% chance to hit you. Granted there is a statistical probability of it happening (in this case about one in a trillion), but it happens far to often. The best all of us have come up with is that the PvE enemies have their own version of a streak breaker, but we haven't found an algorithm for it yet, but something to take into account.
Overall though, very good guide, kudos.
Good is the Enemy of Great
Hey Dechs, not sure you're checking in on your own thread anymore, but, if so, I have a couple questions about DEF which perhaps you'd be able to answer.
The first is pretty basic, and I'm reasonably confident I know the answer - but just to be certain - if your DEF exceeds the soft-cap, does that mean that any DEF debuffs are applied to the ACTUAL number, not the effective number? In other words, if I have DEF of 46.5%, effectively that's going to be 45%, of course, but when hit by a debuff, it comes off of the total of 46.5% - correct?
The second question is: what exactly are the effects of PvP on defense? When I go into Recluse's Victory, for example, my DEF numbers drop dramatically. Not being hip to all the particulars of PvP, I have no idea exactly what's going on there - is there a universal DEF reduction in PvP zones, is it due to some "which side is winning" buff/debuff thing, or something else entirely? Thanks in advance if you can answer this question!
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You are correct. This is why it is called a soft cap. Defense can be added after 45%, but it offers no practical benefit until other things start to interact with it (defense debuffs or tohit buffs). If it were a hard cap, any bonus above 45% would offer no benefit at all. |
Originally Posted by Silver_Streak_NA
In other words, if I have DEF of 46.5%, effectively that's going to be 45%, of course, but when hit by a debuff, it comes off of the total of 46.5% - correct?
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Originally Posted by Silver_Streak_NA
The second question is: what exactly are the effects of PvP on defense?
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Suffice to say, PvP CoH is a different game than PvE CoH.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd been led to believe there was another reason it was called a soft-cap - that it was the maximum amount achievable by a character's OWN buffs. Buffs applied from OTHER sources can exceed the soft-cap amount (there is a hard-cap amount which cannot be exceeded by anything, I am told). Is that correct?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
You are correct. This is why it is called a soft cap. Defense can be added after 45%, but it offers no practical benefit until other things start to interact with it (defense debuffs or tohit buffs). If it were a hard cap, any bonus above 45% would offer no benefit at all.
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In any case, thanks for the answers!
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Nope, you can go over the soft-cap with just your own buffs & bonuses. My Widow has something like 56% melee defense all of the time (and it wasn't even that hard to reach). When it comes to fighting most things though that 56% is no more useful than 45% would be (unless they can either debuff my defense if they do hit me, or have a ToHit bonus).
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Originally Posted by Silver_Streak_NA
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd been led to believe there was another reason it was called a soft-cap - that it was the maximum amount achievable by a character's OWN buffs. Buffs applied from OTHER sources can exceed the soft-cap amount (there is a hard-cap amount which cannot be exceeded by anything, I am told). Is that correct?
In any case, thanks for the answers! |
s
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Nope. That's incorrect. Self-applied buffs can be used to exceed the soft cap. For builds that can muster enough self-applied +defense to exceed the soft cap, it is often desirable to do so at least slightly so that there is an amount of "buffer" defense to keep -defense debuffs from easily drawing you away from the soft cap. Why? Because fighting stuff you can only survive by being at the soft cap and having your soft-capped defense reduced is a bad thing!|
Originally Posted by Silver_Streak_NA
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd been led to believe there was another reason it was called a soft-cap - that it was the maximum amount achievable by a character's OWN buffs.
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| (there is a hard-cap amount which cannot be exceeded by anything, I am told). |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This is incorrect. Just roll up a super reflexes scrapper and pop an enhanced elude, and you'll see numbers much higher than 45%.|
Originally Posted by Silver_Streak_NA
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd been led to believe there was another reason it was called a soft-cap - that it was the maximum amount achievable by a character's OWN buffs.
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It has nothing to do with where the buffs come from, and everything to do with the point at which the majority of the benefits disappear.
Edit: Damn do I feel slow.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Heh - well, since I've been playing a /SR scrapper since day 1, yes, I'm well familiar with that. When I hit Elude, DEF numbers are in the 90's. It's just that I misunderstood what "soft cap" meant. I thought that, even though Combat Attributes was showing me numbers higher than 45%, they were artificially capped at 45%, except with regard to things like DEF debuff. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Just roll up a super reflexes scrapper and pop an enhanced elude, and you'll see numbers much higher than 45%.
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I always knew that the Combat Attributes numbers don't go blue until you hit the hard cap. I do know a LITTLE about this game!
Anyway, thanks for clearing up how it REALLY is!
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Out of curiousity, what would be the minimum amount of Defense needed to acheive nigh soft-cap like survival when you combine the Defense with other kinds of Migitation?
It's easiest to answer that with regards to Def vs. Resistance. One point of defense mitigates the same amount of damage as 2 points of resistance, but only when both actually apply to the attack. For example, a tank capped at 90% smashing resist is going to take full damage from the energy portion of an energy blast and 10% of the smashing portion. He'll take full damage from most electric blasts. The character with 45% ranged OR energy defense will only be hit 5% of the time from those same attacks though, and therefore will average 5% of the damage at all times.
And of course that ignores the fact that no amount of damage resistance will ever stop debuffs or mezzes, while an attack that misses won't do any damage or secondary effects.
Other forms of mitigation, such as regeneration, knockdown, or holds are nearly impossible to gauge a "relative equivalency" to defense, because there are too many variables, and changing the accuracy or recharge of an AoE hold (for example) can drastically change how effective it is at stopping damage.
@Roderick
Where this gets really mean is if you take a tanker build that already has pretty decent resistances, than throw on some extra defense for good measure. A tank running granite armor who has been "tricked out" with 25% m/r/a defense is statistically twice as tough as one without. My ninja/ninja stalker, who's only notable weakness is not quite being capped on AOE, is neigh unkillable in most of the PVE content in the game. That is until she gets that unlucky hit streak, which in that case I aggro dump and flee.
Defense shouldn't be considered the be all end all though, as many enemies in the game have really cheesie counters to defense. Earth mages from the CoTs come to mind, as those stupid quick sand patches are at least -20%ish defense, and Malta Gunslingers basically ignore defense for all intents and purposes. Getting an unlucky dark ring mistress debuff can ruin your day as those are -50%(!!) defense, anything with radiation will eat your defense numbers alive, gun fire (and those roman spears...) have -def to them, and the list goes on and on...
And of course, there's always that 5% probability that an AV will just non challantly smush you in a single shot.
The truth is the solution from an equation of lies. ~Maileah Kirel