Going Tier 1 pet-less... Opinions/Advice please...
By
Carnifax,
Posted on: 2008-08-11 14:25 in Masterminds
If you're finding your Tier 1s squishy, your problem is that they have low HP and both Poison and Dark don't do much to stop them from getting one-shot. If you roll a FF or Traps you'll see a big difference.
I've got two level 50 MMs, a Bot/Dark and a Bot/Traps. Even though the Bots bubble themselves for a bit of extra defence, on a higher-level Strike Force like the LGTF or the LRSF the Dark ends up constantly resummoning his Tier #1s... but I usually count the resummons the Traps has to do on one hand.
Soft-capping the Defence of your henchmen is quite easy on a Bot/Traps or Thug/Traps.
I think the problem could be in the power choice/slotting. Thugs/Dark is VERY survivable. I wouldn't skip the Tier 1 pets, and wouldn't bother with any of the attacks. Some suggestions:
- Darkest Night: take much earlier and slot 3 tht_debuf 1-2 endrdx
- Tar Patch: slot a 3rd rechg
- Equip Thugs: 1 endrdx is all you need
- Howling Twilight: wouldn't bother with anything else besides rechgs
- Enforcers: slot def_buf and acc first, then dmg.
- Upgrade Eqpt: 1 endrdx 1 rechg is enough really
- Shadow Fall is very handy if you micro-manage your thugs.
- taking a patron AoE immob (and maybe shield) is quite helpful
Later on with IO sets and HOs you can do a lot more. 
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
To be honest the only two secondaries I like, are Poison
and Dark Miasma, and as I only roll concept characters, I
would rather not roll a Mastermind, than going with a
secondary or unfitting concept.
Thugs/Dark has great survivability to the point of being ridiculously unkillable against even to tough odds. Just stand in the middle of the punks and spam TG. Shadow Fall stacks with Enforcer Maneuvers (which does real well at keeping Punks alive when you get two Enforcers to stack it) for that extra little bit of Defense, and some exotic resistances. Darkest Night complements the +def extremely well with the -tohit.
I have a Thugs/Dark myself (concept being a Skulls Bone Daddy) and I just plough through anything that doesn't have ridiculously huge amounts of AoE (like Scrapyarders spamming firebombs freakin' everywhere). I do like to think the two punks are helpful, especially as they cause knockdown at range on top of the damage. The Arsonist, meh... I've heard he turns useful past 32 with Fire Bomb. Before that, he's only good for killing runners if he manages to land a Scourged Breath of Fire on them. Molotov Cocktail deals like zero damage. Oh well.
Besides, what else would you take at level 1? Pistols!? Dual Wield is pretty much the only attack you'll get that doesn't outright suck. Not that it's good either, but if the pistols are part of your concept, I'd get it instead of Pistols or Empty Endurance Bar.
[ QUOTE ]
- Darkest Night: take much earlier and slot 3 tht_debuf 1-2 endrdx
[/ QUOTE ]
Well taking it earlier, would mean I had to take Howling
Twillight later, and I'm not a big fan of that idea,
especially because people tend to die more in the lower
levels, than in the higher.
About the slotting, I've checked with Mid's and it's only
6,5% more ToHit Debuff when slotted with three level 50 IO
enhancements, which isn't worth the 3 slots in my opinion.
[ QUOTE ]
- Tar Patch: slot a 3rd rechg
[/ QUOTE ]
Good idea. I'll do that through the levels.
(The build above is level 47 respec build, so a third slot will only enhance the recharge with around 5 seconds.)
[ QUOTE ]
- Equip Thugs: 1 endrdx is all you need
[/ QUOTE ]
One of the things I personally dislike when teaming with
Masterminds, is the time it takes to set up pets, and one
thing I really hate, is running out of Endurance.
Of course you couldn't know that. 
[ QUOTE ]
- Howling Twilight: wouldn't bother with anything else besides rechgs
[/ QUOTE ]
Again with the Endurance issue... Without EndRedux in it,
it takes away 1/3rd of your endurance bar.
[ QUOTE ]
- Enforcers: slot def_buf and acc first, then dmg.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know how much defense, the Enforcer's Maneuvers
provide without slotting defense, and I don't know how much
it will improve by slotting in a Def enhancement, so I went
for the safe choice; Def Debuff.
[ QUOTE ]
- Upgrade Eqpt: 1 endrdx 1 rechg is enough really
[/ QUOTE ]
Again with the setup and endurance issue I suffer from,
although I might skip one Rech and one EndRedux, and put
them somewhere else.
[ QUOTE ]
- Shadow Fall is very handy if you micro-manage your thugs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've had some difficulties deciding wether I should take
this power or not, and I decided to go without.
The endurance it costs, plus running both Tactics and
Assault, would make it a very End-heavy build, and I don't
like that.
Micromanaging is also what I try to avoid, so I can help
team more with debuffs, buffs, etc.
[ QUOTE ]
- taking a patron AoE immob (and maybe shield) is quite helpful
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah it would, but then I would miss out on either Recall
Friend or Vengeance, and I couldn't take Empty Clips (which
isn't a huge loss).
I appreciate all your thoughts and advice on the matter,
and I'll certainly keep you updated if my build works, when
I hit level 27 and respec Thugs out...
Wait. You think slotting Darkest Night for ToHit Debuff is worthless, but you slot Enforcers for DefDebuff.
I don't see the logic.
Oh, and take Shadow Fall.
[ QUOTE ]
Wait. You think slotting Darkest Night for ToHit Debuff is worthless, but you slot Enforcers for DefDebuff.
I don't see the logic.
Oh, and take Shadow Fall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well there is great logic in it:
First of all I don't have Shadowfall, so there is no
Defense to stack the To Hit Debuff with.
Then there is the Defense Debuff in Enforcers, and I
decided on the Defense Debuff because:
1: I don't know how well Defense Buff in Enforcers will
benefit, but I do know it'll only benefit my henchmen, so
I'll let that be.
2: I don't know how well To Hit Buff in Enforcers will
benefit, but I do know it'll only benefit my henchmen, so
I'll let that be.
3: I don't know how well Defense Debuff will benefit, but I
know that less Defense on targets, means better hit chance
for all team members, and I need to put something in that
last slot, so I took Defense Debuff.
Why should I take Shadow Fall?
I didn't have much use for it on my former Necro/Dark,
except for excessive end usage, compared to what it offers.
And I don't like end-heavy builds...
I don't know if you've understood my intentions with this
build, but I'll qoute myself:
[ QUOTE ]
My plan is to have both Enforcers in Bodyguard Mode, and
only actively controlling the Bruiser.
That should give me more time and focus, to help my team
more with healings and debuffs, than if I had the Thugs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't wanna play this like all other Masterminds, and
just be a force of deadly henchmen, and only do the odd
healing and buff/debuff here and there. I wanna focus more
on that stuff, and less on henchmen management.
Just that there's not really much DefDebuff there to enhance, compared to the returns you'd get out of enhancing Darkest Night. Stick an Achilles Heel proc in them if they take it and be done with it, focus on damage enhancements. Enforcers spray the area full of cone death.
In reply to your points:
1) Enforcer Maneuvers are extremely good.
2) Not as good but you could slot a BU proc there. Granted, this wouldn't enhance the ToHit at all, but I wouldn't advise this in any case.
3) Scrap the DefDebuff and buy an Achilles Heel proc. It's pretty much the best proc in the game (in my opinion and surely the opinion of many others). Either that, or put that extra slot elsewhere.
Why should you take Shadow Fall?
Your Necro/Dark didn't have any Defense to stack it with. Thugs have two pets with Maneuvers (which is better than Leadership Maneuvers, closer to VEAT maneuvers), which stack with eachother. As you might know, the more def you have, the more value you get from additional defense in terms of reducing your current damage income.
In addition, it offers not-too-shabby-at-all numbers of exotic resistances to stack with that Resistance aura IO (Soulbound Allegiance?) - AND Terrorize protection/resistance. Granted, the amount of mobs in the PvE game that use Terrorize is rather... limited. Still, it's there for when you need it.
As for the endurance cost, stuff a few EndRedux in it and it's good. What else are you spending so much endurance on aside from spamming TG and channeling Darkest Night (which should have plenty of room for EndRedux itself as well if you're not slotting for ToHit Debuff)?
If you plan on having Enforcers in Bodyguard mode, it'll definitely pump up their survivability by a noticeable amount.
However, in the end it's your character and your vision. I'm just being a little overly enthusiastic about persuading you, but I suppose not every power is for everyone's playstyle.
It's hard to argue with concept, so if you really don't want the T1 pets and really want the attacks... well that's fine I guess. Blitzkrieger has already made some really good points on why Darkest Night and Shadow Fall will greatly enhance your survivability. I just wanted to add that if you didn't use those attacks (which don't seem to really be in line with the healer/debuffer you say you want to play anyway), you wouldn't have so many endurance problems. With 2 endrdx on toggles and Stamina (plus a bit of +recov here and there from sets admittedly), I have no end problems and usually have Shadow Fall and 1-2 Leadership toggles running.
Just some numbers concerning the Enforcers' buffs (and this is per Enforcer):
- Maneuvers: around 7.2% unenhanced at lvl 12 (8.5% at lvl 50). So yes, I definitely think it's worth enhancing, especially if you can stack it (or team with other Thugs).
- Tactics (with 1st upgrade): 3% +tht (so not worth enhancing)
- Assault (with 2nd upgrade): 5% +dmg (unenhanceable but - like Tactics - stacks with your inherent)
The attacks do 5% -def but the duration is very short, so not worth bothering with imo (except when you get to HOs since Lysos will enhance both +def and -def). With SOs (and running Tactics) I think I slotted them 1 Acc 3 Dmg 2 Def_Buf.
And a couple of other comments:
- yes, HT is very endurance heavy, but with such a long recharge, you won't need more than 1 endrdx in it, even if you use it mainly as a debuff instead of a rez.
- Petrifying Gaze: I'm still considering dropping this if/when I respec. Limited use unless you can stack it with another hold from your patron imo.
Anyway, have fun with your MM, whichever way you choose to build him. And remember that Thugs MMs are a bit like VEATs: 1 in a team: nice. 2 in a team: much, much better. 3 or more in a team: pure win!
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
Mmm, stacking Petrifying Gaze with Soul Storm is very sexy indeed. Bosses spinning in the air.
Well thanks for all your comments guys...
I got my MM to level 27, and I respecced Thugs out of the
build...
It worked perfectly and just as I planned, but for some reason I still hate playing MMs...
Ah well I guess not all ATs are for everyone, so MMs go
down the same path as Stalkers did for me; no more MMs...
I HAD a MM Thugs/Traps, which I thought would be great teamed up with my wifes MM Thugs/Poison, but I was in the same boat with my thugs. Eventually at level 22, I deleted him and rerolled him as Thugs/FF and now its awesome. Hardly have to heal at all. But I can understand all about the concept thing. We play a mafia family similar to the Marcone and the Verandi? and it had to be right. Dark for us, just wouldnt have fit, despite how awesome it is.
[ QUOTE ]
Well thanks for all your comments guys...
I got my MM to level 27, and I respecced Thugs out of the build...
It worked perfectly and just as I planned, but for some reason I still hate playing MMs...
Ah well I guess not all ATs are for everyone, so MMs go
down the same path as Stalkers did for me; no more MMs...
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh damn. That's a shame. 
I only started disliking masterminds when I finally got to fifty with one, and that's because levels forty to fifty were played on a very laggy laptop, and the zoning time, plus summoning time, plus upgrading time drove me mad.
Ah well, best of luck with whichever archtype you decide to play next.
Also, your avatar made me giggle. 
I wouldn't recommend , its doable but then put them on defensive , so they act like a toggle shield .
So no slots into them and put them on defensive ,wish passive would work , but sadly passive dont divide up the damage you recieve .
So just use them as a damage shield or body guard and resummon them when they are dead . instead of healing or taking care of them a bit like faster gangwar group .
Slot Thugs with three defence - that's between an 11% and 13% def buff from each to all your thugs. Throw in maneuvers and more than 50% of enemy attacks that would hit the tier ones are now missing them. A good start to their survivability.
[ QUOTE ]
Slot Thugs with three defence - that's between an 11% and 13% def buff from each to all your thugs. Throw in maneuvers and more than 50% of enemy attacks that would hit the tier ones are now missing them. A good start to their survivability.
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean Enforcers rather than Thugs, right? Thugs don't grant any defense buffs (and can't take Defense enhancements either).
I wouldn't 3 slot Enforcers either, simply because they do lots of AOE damage. I think I've 3 Acc/Damage, 1 damage and 2 defense buff in them at the mo.
I do mean enforcers
And I'd only 3-slot them under certain conditions:
1: I really wanted my thugs to be as tough as possible (as the OP)
2: I had a Thugs/Traps combination, and was approaching the def soft-cap. (Thugs/FF should comfortably excede it).
The rest of the time I'd probably take your slotting. (I've 3-slotted my protector bots for Defence, but that's another matter).
Hey all... Not often I post, but I could use some opinions
and advice on this...
I've tried to make a couple of Masterminds through my
villain career; Level 31 Necro/Dark, Level 26 Thugs/Poison,
Level 20 Ninja/Poison.
Every single time I've suddenly come to the conclusion that
I hate playing Masterminds, and then they get deleted...
Now I've found out why; it's those stupid Tier 1 pets!
They almost constantly need healing, re-summoning and
buffing, and it takes alot of time, concentration and
Endurance. And they are squishy aggro-magnets on top of
that...
So I've decided to give Masterminds a final chance, and
come up with a build that doesn't include Tier 1 pets (in
this case Thugs).
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1,4006
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Shadow Bullet: Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Dark Miasma
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Leadership
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Pistols -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(3), EndRdx-I:50(7), Dmg-I:50(34), Dmg-I:50(43), Dmg-I:50(48)
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(3), EndRdx-I:50(5), RechRdx-I:50(9), Heal-I:50(9), Heal-I:50(11)
Level 2: Tar Patch -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(17)
Level 4: Dual Wield -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(5), EndRdx-I:50(7), Dmg-I:50(17), Dmg-I:50(43), Dmg-I:50(50)
Level 6: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I:50(A)
Level 10: Equip Thugs -- RechRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(11), RechRdx-I:50(40), EndRdx-I:50(42)
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- Acc-I:50(A), Dmg-I:50(13), Dmg-I:50(13), Acc-I:50(15), Dmg-I:50(15), DefDeb-I:50(50)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I:50(A)
Level 18: Gang War -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(19), RechRdx-I:50(19), Acc-I:50(34), Dmg-I:50(34), Dmg-I:50(36)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(21), EndMod-I:50(21)
Level 22: Fearsome Stare -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(23), EndRdx-I:50(23), RechRdx-I:50(25), Fear-I:50(36), Range-I:50(36)
Level 24: Howling Twilight -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(25), RechRdx-I:50(42), RechRdx-I:50(43)
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- Acc-I:50(A), Dmg-I:50(27), Dmg-I:50(27), Acc-I:50(29), Dmg-I:50(29), Dsrnt-I:50(50)
Level 28: Petrifying Gaze -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(31), EndRdx-I:50(31), RechRdx-I:50(37), Hold-I:50(37), Hold-I:50(37)
Level 30: Darkest Night -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(31)
Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(33), EndRdx-I:50(33), EndRdx-I:50(33), RechRdx-I:50(40), EndRdx-I:50(40)
Level 35: Recall Friend -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 38: Dark Servant -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(39), Hold-I:50(46), Heal-I:50(48)
Level 41: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(42)
Level 44: Empty Clips -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(45), EndRdx-I:50(45), Dmg-I:50(45), Dmg-I:50(46), Range-I:50(46)
Level 47: Tactics -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(48)
Level 49: Vengeance -- DefBuff-I:50(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
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My plan is to have both Enforcers in Bodyguard Mode, and
only actively controlling the Bruiser.
That should give me more time and focus, to help my team
more with healings and debuffs, than if I had the Thugs.
So now after all this comes the questions;
Do you think it'll work?
Will it be totally gimped without the Thugs?
Anyone seen or have experience with Tier 1 pet-less builds?
Any advice/suggestion/opinion/etc. will be very
appreciated...
Thanks in advance!