And so the I13 banter begins...

Judgement_Dave · 07-11-2008 01:58 PM

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1) If hero ancilleries where available for villains, you wouldn't need a respec (unless you had already started on a patron) you could just pick them.

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Probably correct - although the haiku is fairly limited and not a complete, detailed guide to I13 features! Using a Lupin reference and the pick from all can help convey the message that villains will be able to alter (in respec) what has previously been a decision cast in stone - i.e. the APP can be changed.

A change to CoV APPs to make them re-selectable during respec would be a big enough change to hint at in a Haiku, but a Haiku wouldn't neccesarily give enough room to expand upon the matter... Especially if other changes are hinted at in the same Haiku.

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4) No mention of the corrolory: Heroes getting patron powers. You can't have one without the other

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Poppycock!

Of course you can have one without the other. Unless maybe the development language forbids it... checks books on languages from assembler to C to Logo and Actionscript.. nope - can't spot anything in development languages that explicitly stops it.

It's also possible that APPs for heroes and villains would expand for some form of parity but the poetic structure of Haiku does limit the depth of detail revealed.

By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

JawDropper_EU · 07-11-2008 01:59 PM

He has stated that they cause problems and especially with regard to high level pvp. If he were to create the Hero ancilliary pools (which i don't believe that he did - correct me if i'm worng) he wouldn't include such powers. Too overpowered.

I can't find the quote as this was said some months ago. But I remember him saying it, although not in the words that Praf used!

Edit: Didn't he post it in a thread about PvP inbalances?

@Jaw Dropper - Toons of all levels so drop me a line!

Imaginary Inc.

Twitter me!

GrinningSpade · 07-11-2008 02:02 PM

Well everyone is assuming this is about villains only having to make a choice.

What if there is another haiku about heroes making a choice as well?

PRAF68_EU · 07-11-2008 02:08 PM

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Well everyone is assuming this is about villains only having to make a choice.

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"Villains" being the first word is kind of a clue.

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What if there is another haiku about heroes making a choice as well?

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Which there isn't.

I really should do something about this signature.

Tuarus · 07-11-2008 02:09 PM

Meh! PvP ruins this game

Judgement_Dave · 07-11-2008 02:10 PM

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it has an obvious interpretation

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There is no other explenation. Patrons are the only thing that are locked for villains but not for heroes.

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And the simple fact that villains and Lupin are mentioned may not mean that it is limited entirely to them.

I recall you to be a teacher with a mathematical slant:

The value thirteen
Is not imaginery
But a real number

If I state, quite correctly, that 13 is a real number does that mean that no other number is a real number??

Giving an example or clue (especially when limited by a poetic structure) does not mean that you have given an exhaustive list of changes nor a complete list of qualities defining the set of attributes/features to change.

It is more likely reading the haiku that it's the CoV APPs that are to change (with regard to being unable to repick them during respec) and that is the obvious interpretation. But it is not the only possible interpretation - and stating that it is does nothing but attempt to subdue debate/discussion of possible alternate interpretations.

Given that this isn't life or death, I'd rather enjoy a lively discussion (even if I believe some participants to be wrong) than see two or three people proclaim their vision of the truth and try to stifle other viewpoints!!

By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

PRAF68_EU · 07-11-2008 02:38 PM

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And the simple fact that villains and Lupin are mentioned may not mean that it is limited entirely to them.

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If it wasn't something specific to villains, there would be no need to mention villains in the haiku.

Whist mathmatically, it could refer to anything, taking into account the intent of the author, it is clear that the rhyme refers to something villain specific.

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it is not the only possible interpretation

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Its the only interpertation that makes any sense.

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I'd rather enjoy a lively discussion

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I find people trying to bend logic to fit thier wishful thinking rather depressing personally.

I really should do something about this signature.

Lord Mayhem · 07-11-2008 02:58 PM

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You are reading way way to much into it.

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Yeah, but speculation is fun and I still don't think it's beyond the bounds of plausibility.

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1) If hero ancilleries where available for villains, you wouldn't need a respec (unless you had already started on a patron) you could just pick them.

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Not if they make them only available through respec, which is possible. Villains already get an extra earned respec (that heroes don't) for completing their first patron arc (the same way they open up their patron pool) - this lets villains put it to use if they wish.

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2) They are balanced around the AT they are designed for. You can't just copy them across and expect them to be balanced

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Sure, some tweaks would have to be made to certain pools, but in other cases a direct copy would be perfectly feasible - if, say, Psychic Mastery is balanced for a Rad/Rad or Sonic/Sonic Defender then what would be the issue in giving it to a Rad/Rad or Sonic/Sonic Corruptor?

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3) Castle hates Power Boost and Power Build Up, he certainly isn't going to let them spreed, he wants to kill then dead.

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Very true. But if he's making changes to ancillary/patron pools in I13 then maybe he'll change (i.e. nerf) those powers at the same time - it would be as good an excuse as any.

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4) No mention of the corrolory: Heroes getting patron powers. You can't have one without the other

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Why can't you have one without the other? As aforementioned villains can get 4 earned respecs instead of 3 like heroes so there is precedent for not having balance in the exact same area of the game (without going into all the imbalances in content).

Also I don't see many hero players on the US forums crying out for proliferation of the patron pools to blueside, not like the hundreds of calls for getting Focused Accuracy and other ancillary powers redside.

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5) Nothing can balance PvP

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Absolutely true, but from what I said in context I was speaking about ancillary pool imbalances. Giving both sides access to the same thing is the easiest way to provide balance in that single aspect.

The only way to really balance PvP irrefutably on a factional level would be to let both sides have access to all archetypes and powersets (which may happen one day if "going rogue" ever happens - I can't see it, though).

Judgement_Dave · 07-11-2008 03:09 PM

Odd that you bring up twisting logic...
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it is not the only possible interpretation

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Its the only interpertation that makes any sense.

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Isn't that the fallacy of argument from personal incredulity?? i.e. I don't believe it (or it doesn't make any sense to me) therefore it cannot be true.

You are betting upon a single possible outcome when there is not enough evidence to logically discount others. There is presumption, assumption and feeling but no evidence - the single haiku is not much to go off.

Again - I think it most likely that your reading of the haiku is correct.. but there is not the evidence to state that it is the only single possible meaning of the haiku.

By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

PRAF68_EU · 07-11-2008 03:18 PM

What other possible explanation is there?

Only one, that Postron is deliberatly trying to decieve.

In which case, there is no reason to believe anything in the statemant.

"There will be no issue 13, CoX is cancelled"

Would be an equaly valid interpretiation in that case.

You might find is useful to look up Occam's razor.

I really should do something about this signature.

PRAF68_EU · 07-11-2008 03:22 PM

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Why can't you have one without the other?

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Because of the amount of whining you would get if you did this. It would give villains twice as many choices as heroes.

I really should do something about this signature.

PRAF68_EU · 07-11-2008 03:27 PM

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Sure, some tweaks would have to be made to certain pools

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they would all need testing, and that is the time consuming bit. If they where to make ancilleries available to villains, it would be done a small number at a time like the rest of powerset proliferation, not all at once. That way they could be properly tested.

However, Positron uses the word ALL, which in this case, clearly refers to ALL the options villains where previously locked out of, i.e. all the PPPs, not PPPs plus a couple of APPs.

I really should do something about this signature.

Blue Rabbit · 07-11-2008 04:43 PM

Lovely... Maroon Hare will have to do all the patron arcs now to have access to all the patron badges...

Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit

The_Phantoms_EU · 07-11-2008 05:00 PM

WARNING!!! FORUM WAR AT THE READY!!! IF YOU READ ANY FURTHER THAN THIS POST YOU MAY BE KNOCKED UNCONSCIOUS!!!

...as for the haiku, it's pretty obvious what Posi's saying.

Allowing villians to rechoose their patron. Seriously, that's the only thing that's likely to me.

_evie_ · 07-11-2008 06:12 PM

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Waaaay to obvious, Positron needs to do better if he is to keep up with Mender Silos.

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Positron is Mender Silos, a Nemesis plot AND fictional cake?

PRAF68_EU · 07-12-2008 07:10 AM

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Lovely... Maroon Hare will have to do all the patron arcs now to have access to all the patron badges...

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The implication is you can respec patron pools, not patrons.

Allowing players to respec thier pools is technically easy, you just flag each patron badge as unlocking all four pools. the only reason it wasn't done was for story reasons. I suppose they will explain the change with Doctor Brainstorm's stupid powerset proliferation experiments.

Actually changing a patron, and doing the arc and getting the badge for a different patron is the thing that is technically unfeasable, since other parts of the endgame hang on the patron arcs.

In conclusion, this change will let you change your patron powers, it won't alow you to do arcs or earn badges for other patrons.

I really should do something about this signature.

Blue Rabbit · 07-12-2008 11:27 AM

PRAF, you spoilsport...

Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit