bots/poison mm v ice/em tank

i love pvping in sirens ive had some wicked fights there ,recently me and tankola have has some real ding dongs , some he wins some i win.
One thing i noticed is that he seems to drain my bots end somehow, never played an ice tank and was wondering what power hes using is doing this , and also what i can do to defend against this
And thanks to every one that goes to sirens most nights a between 5pm gmt and 12am gmt its bin fun guys

Ps, its nothing personal

BB ah silly me , hes ice/ss dohhhh

Its Energy Absorption, and there isnt much an MM can do to stop it, unless you move around with your bots alot, or place them in differnet places.
One of the FF shields gives resistance to end drain, thats all i can think that would help a MM, but not you cause ur poison :/
SC

Ice has Energy Absorption which is an autohit PBAoE power which drains/recovers endurance + it grants the ice tank a defense bonus for each target hit.

thanks guys , ill have to try moving around a bit more

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what i can do to defend against this

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Move about (or at least don't cluster your bots together, /poison don't have any PBAoE buffs anyway), carry blues, floor his recharge rate (very difficult with Ice/), mez him (might be doable as a high level /poison with envenom/weaken/noxious gas), slot endreds in your summon powers. Defense won't help as EA is autohit.

Energy Absorption does not affect your bots' recovery, it just drains their blue bar... slotting endred will allow them to recover end faster than they use it and start firing again right after a drain.

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what i can do to defend against this

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Move about (or at least don't cluster your bots together, /poison don't have any PBAoE buffs anyway), carry blues, floor his recharge rate (very difficult with Ice/), mez him (might be doable as a high level /poison with envenom/weaken/noxious gas), slot endreds in your summon powers. Defense won't help as EA is autohit.

Energy Absorption does not affect your bots' recovery, it just drains their blue bar... slotting endred will allow them to recover end faster than they use it and start firing again right after a drain.

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Noxious Gas is the level 38 poer in the poison set. This isn't available in Sirens call.

Also, Endurance reducion slotted in a pet power DOES NOT mean that they use less endurance when they fire off their powers. It simply means that the endurance cost of creating the bots is less.

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Also, Endurance reducion slotted in a pet power DOES NOT mean that they use less endurance when they fire off their powers. It simply means that the endurance cost of creating the bots is less.

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No. It's how much endurance your henchmen use. For the most part not an issue at at all but for something like the Protector Robots they do need end red after the lvl 32 upgrade.

No - it really is nothing to do with the ammount of endurance that they use. Thats like saying that slotting range enhancements in a pet will increase their range. That simply isn't true. Its been common knowledge for ages so I don't know where you are getting this idea from but its totally, totally wrong.

Its been common knowledge for ages that it's how much endurance your henchmen uses. Pretty sure that slotting Ranges in them only affects the distance at where you can summon them , which is what I'm guessing youre trying to say so I agree that this clashes with what I'm saying.

Just try and play with end reductions in your pets and you'll see what I'm talking about.

i must admit i always thought slotting bots with end reduc ment there attacks cost less to fire ,never thought it might mean it reduces there summoning cost

I was under the impression it only reduced cast cost.

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Its been common knowledge for ages that it's how much endurance your henchmen uses. Pretty sure that slotting Ranges in them only affects the distance at where you can summon them , which is what I'm guessing youre trying to say so I agree that this clashes with what I'm saying.

Just try and play with end reductions in your pets and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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Just tried it - absolutely no difference. I had a kin friend of mine drain a bot of all it endurance and I checked to see how many times he would fire in the 2 minutes afterwards. It fired the same number of time with 3 x SO endurance reductions as it did with no endurance reductions.

This is one of the misconceptions that was laid to rest ages ago on the U.S. formus.

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Its been common knowledge for ages that it's how much endurance your henchmen uses. Pretty sure that slotting Ranges in them only affects the distance at where you can summon them , which is what I'm guessing youre trying to say so I agree that this clashes with what I'm saying.

Just try and play with end reductions in your pets and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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Just tried it - absolutely no difference. I had a kin friend of mine drain a bot of all it endurance and I checked to see how many times he would fire in the 2 minutes afterwards. It fired the same number of time with 3 x SO endurance reductions as it did with no endurance reductions.

This is one of the misconceptions that was laid to rest ages ago on the U.S. formus.

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Then explain to me why my prot bots are running out of endurance with the 2nd upgrade with no end reds slotted and wont lose much endurance if theyre slotted for it then?

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Its been common knowledge for ages that it's how much endurance your henchmen uses. Pretty sure that slotting Ranges in them only affects the distance at where you can summon them , which is what I'm guessing youre trying to say so I agree that this clashes with what I'm saying.

Just try and play with end reductions in your pets and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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Just tried it - absolutely no difference. I had a kin friend of mine drain a bot of all it endurance and I checked to see how many times he would fire in the 2 minutes afterwards. It fired the same number of time with 3 x SO endurance reductions as it did with no endurance reductions.

This is one of the misconceptions that was laid to rest ages ago on the U.S. formus.

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Quoting Posi:

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Actually the deal is this:

We removed Recharge Enhancements from all Henchmen powers because it WOULD affect the recharge rate of the summoning power itself, and NOT the recharge rate of the Henchmen's powers.

This is inconsistent to ALL other Enhancements that are slottable for Henchmen... the Enhancements ALWAYS affect the powers of the Henchmen, and not the summoning power itself.

To avoid confusion, we just removed the option.

And I believe it was a good call, seeing as how many people would be confused as to how it would work if we left it alone.

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Source. And I can't find any evidence this has been changed since.

Yes, slotting end reductions in your pets reduces the amount of end they use. I've only needed one in my boss pet when he's fully upgraded, but he always used to run out of endurance and didn't after slotting a single SO.

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Its been common knowledge for ages that it's how much endurance your henchmen uses. Pretty sure that slotting Ranges in them only affects the distance at where you can summon them , which is what I'm guessing youre trying to say so I agree that this clashes with what I'm saying.

Just try and play with end reductions in your pets and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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Just tried it - absolutely no difference. I had a kin friend of mine drain a bot of all it endurance and I checked to see how many times he would fire in the 2 minutes afterwards. It fired the same number of time with 3 x SO endurance reductions as it did with no endurance reductions.

This is one of the misconceptions that was laid to rest ages ago on the U.S. formus.

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Robotic Masterminds have known ever since the AT was introduced that after the level 32 Upgrade the Protector Bots' Bubbles cost more Endurance than they can generate. Slotting one EndRed SO will however give the Bots a slight net endurance gain.

That was a bad test, since assuming that the Bot has a net gain of Endurance the amount of endred in its attacks won't matter if the endurance bar isn't being constantly drained. What you *should* have done is gotten the kin (or several kins) to spam Transference on the Bot constantly, and measure how many times the Bot got to fire back whilst having it's endurance drained.

Effectively, if a Bot's attack costs X endurance to use then the Bot must go from 0 to X after a Transference (or other End drain) before it can use that attack. If however the Bot has endred slotted then the attack's cost will be lowered, meaning less endurance has to be recovered after a Transference in order for that attack to activate. Basically if the attacks don't cost as much, they will fire faster after an end drain. Since there is a time gap between Transferences/Drains, a Bot which has lower endurance attacks will get more attacks out between drains. A Bot with sufficently low endurance costs will suffer very little from endurance drains because even after a full drain it will start attacking again just as soon as the first recovery tick kicks in.

Now if the Kin was a Kin/Elec defender and used Short Circuit then we'd have a problem, since Short Circuit does -recovery (which would prevent the Bot from receiving that first recovery tick) as well as drain... but thankfully an Ice Tanker's Energy Absorption has no such -recovery!!

Nope - the quote from postitron is unclear on what happenes to endurance reduction SO's. Please read further into the thread - about page 5. Posi is just talking about the recharge enhancements.

I have now just looked at how much endurance it costs to summon my 3 battle bots and how much it costs when I have slotted 3 endurance reductions in it.

With the 3 endurance reductions in it, it hardly went down at all compared to when I had none slotted.

Please try this for yourself as its the only way to prove it. Endurance enhancements decrease the initial costs for summoning the bots.

I can't see which part is unclear in:

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This is inconsistent to ALL other Enhancements

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MZ's guide (and I'm sure he's looked into this carefully) says that it lowers both the summoning cost and the cost of the power itself (for your henches), which does seem to contradict Posi's statement that it only does the latter. I'll gladly try this on Test with my MM.

Edit: just finished testing and I think MZ is right: slotting EndRdx did reduce the cost of summoning my henches (easy to check) but also reduced the end cost of their attacks (their blue bar was consistently higher than with my usual IO/HO slotting).

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Nope - the quote from postitron is unclear on what happenes to endurance reduction SO's. Please read further into the thread - about page 5. Posi is just talking about the recharge enhancements.

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What Okton said.

Positron is quite clear, the other numpties later on in that thread were simply having trouble telling the difference between "Pets" and "Henchmen".

For Henchmen, anything slotted in the power will affect the powers used by the summoned pet. Recharge Enhancements were removed because they would affect the actual summon power instead of the pet, this is why recharge enhancements were not included in henchmen pet powers.

Also note that the way Positron phrased his answer. He states that Recharge enhancements would ONLY affect the summon power, and NOT affect the pets... and that this behaviour is not shared by any of the other enhancements. "All other enhancements always affect the powers of the Henchmen, and not [always affect] the summoning power itself". This is not the same as saying that "all other enhancements always affect the powers of the Henchmen, but they NEVER affect the summoning power itself".

This is logical, since slotting a henchmen power for accuracy will not affect how you summon a Henchman... there is no tohit check performed to see if you can summon a henchman!! However endurance reduction affects both the henchman's powers AND the initial summoning cost.

This is very easy to test with "Protector Bots" after the level 32 upgrade: as any mid-level Robotic MM will be able to tell you, they consistently run out of endurance trying to keep the other bots bubbled unless they are slotted for End reduction. And as you have discovered already, the same Endurance Reduction enhancements also decrease that Henchman's initial summoning cost.

I have two high level Robot/ MMs. One is a level 50 Bot/Dark, the other is a level 49.7 Bot/Traps.
Both have their Protector Bot power slotted for EndRed, because that EndRed affects the Bot's powers.

This is not new behaviour -"Endurance Reduction Enhancements will affect both your endurance cost for summoning AND reduce the endurance costs for the henchmen summoned." - 06/26/06

How the heck did we get from "Defences against Energy Absorption" to here anyway?

Nah - I just don't buy this. I have never come across any 'dual purpose' enhancements. And TBH I don't even think posi knows what he is talking about. If you read the whole of the thread the whole thing about the recharges even starts to look a bit dodgey. Reminds me of the time that ED came in and the dev's used the line 'oh that was how it was supposed to work from the start'. There was massive uproar about that and the pet changes that happened around that time - that made it obvious to most people that the dev's were lying to us.

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How the heck did we get from "Defences against Energy Absorption" to here anyway?

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Believe SweetChilli went all RARR! You all suck and I'm right!

...and then people wanted to prove him wrong.

NinjaEdit:
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Nah - I just don't buy this. I have never come across and 'dual purpose' enhancements. And TBH I don't even think posi knows what he is talking about.

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Have to admire the persistance and stubborness

And slotting for end reduction iws bad advise anyways for pvp. Just had them a blue each or never get them into that position to begin with.

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And slotting for end reduction iws bad advise anyways for pvp. Just had them a blue each or never get them into that position to begin with.

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I'd rather take something more usefull like a Break Free or Strength of Will.

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And slotting for end reduction iws bad advise anyways for pvp. Just had them a blue each or never get them into that position to begin with.

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I'd rather take something more usefull like a Break Free or Strength of Will.

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Did you actually read the problem?

And in summary - yes, I know more than posi about this game. He may have a large spreadsheet that he looks at, but I don't think he even plays the game. Probably plays WoW or GW.