Dominators for Pvp? they need an Upgrade?


Alvan

 

Posted

I found lot of people talking about the skills modificacion about I11.
Think that dominators need a "buff"; Compared to trollers and blasters. Trollers can buff/debuff/heal and blasters got more damage.
Seems that dominators must be a mix of the two, but, domination is too slow and the secondary pool seems to be nerfed compared to blasters:
In my case: did a mind/energy dom, I love the toon, but I found that it dont works as well as i thougt, seems that the same powers that blaster got (ex: total focus, bone smasher...) do less damage with the dominator.

In other way, is almost imposible to hold or do nothing in front scrapper/tank/brute... you can run out of holds and did nothing.

My question is: Do you think the doms will get changed in the next issue? if they will be buffed/nerfed. Wich way or wich pools/powers?


 

Posted

If dominators need something, it is durability/HP bar size.


 

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seems that the same powers that blaster got (ex: total focus, bone smasher...) do less damage with the dominator.

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That would be putting it mildly, but its not the problem.


 

Posted

Thanks for the answer, but blasters got the same life/end that doms, dont they¿? I played with some blasters and the thing I notice they diffiere, really, is damage output.
The idea is that with same skills you can get a comparision, but you cant, Blasters with same skills do lot of more damage, also, in pvp i can held a blaster, then, throw all over them, Total focus, bone smahser, levitate, etc... etc... but, what I found, that he can resist the attack, recover and kill me first with 2 or 3 hits at all.
Doms are not done for durabilty, the skill of domination says itself, while doing damage dominator gains domination... So perhaps, and taking account that energy is resisted with smashing, and got no aoe more than one melee, the damage output, is too low, it must be, perhaps, greatly increased. so you think like that? you think devs will increase damage or modify pools?


 

Posted

Sure. Yeah. I think Dominators need a buff in PvP. Perhaps an added +tohit to Domination to fight against the pesky SR scrappers. Base damage could be increased a bit as well. And I think the holds don't last long enough. And hmm. What else.. Uhmn... NO. Doms are on the verge of needing a nerf as they are, tbh.

I have 3 Doms, 2 of them made for PvP, I have never experienced the problems you mention. In fact, to comment on few things:

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In other way, is almost imposible to hold or do nothing in front scrapper/tank/brute... you can run out of holds and did nothing.

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I have succesfully held everything from SR scrapper to a Granite Tanker running Rooted. Sure, it might be painful to get the 6 or 7 holds stacked if the enemy is +def based and you don't have any +tohit (like on a /ice dom), but very possible. A dominator should learn to kite like hell, never let the enemy be near unless you have him held.

(Hell, I can get a Stone Brute running Granite + Rooted held with my blaster. It's not really that hard.)

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In my case: did a mind/energy dom, I love the toon, but I found that it dont works as well as i thougt, seems that the same powers that blaster got (ex: total focus, bone smasher...) do less damage with the dominator.

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Yes, they do less damage. In fact, they are about 75% as effective. This means you can't use them the way you use them on a Blaster, especially as you don't get build up and aim, which would boost your burst damage to sky high numbers. On a domi, your friend is long-term damage. Get the enemy held, damage him, keep spamming holds - when the 15 second suppression period kicks in, avoid him for the 15 secs, then finish killing him. Use Power Boost to extend the time he's held, as well as Domination. Remember that after he's been held, if he doesn't fire up Acrobatics or another toggle like it he's vulnerable to knockback, which means he is affected by your secondary's secondary effect, which buys you time to survive the 15 second suppression.

But, if the devs ever give domis a boost, I will not object. I just don't think they need it.

ps. sorry about possible typos and bbroken sentences, late here, just got home from Nine Inch Nails gig.


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Posted

So the way you say it, I have only 1 build to do with a dom? I mean, the idea of get a doom with holds and melee damage is obsolete, veryone, almost everyone, uses the same kind of dom, just wanna be original and get something fun, but with the supresion and the spines scrapers that inmobilizes you, and the 2 hit down they give you (yes 2 hits almost and you are out) think is a bit hard.
Also if you compare doms in front of trollers, with the containment power they got mor long term damage and with their second pool they got buff/debuff or heal.
also I already compared to blaster so... think they are a bit unbalanced in front of the others, they got less life, less attack, and a special power (domination) really slow to use... everyone says they are one of the weakest (if not the weakest) classes.
You talk about an skilled player using the toon (kitting, using the powers in the correct time) to control a power, a player "without brain" but if the other got some brain, usually, there is no chance.


 

Posted

Hola, I think that view is just out of date now, a long time out of date. When the domination buildup in PvP was changed to +8 per hit with assault powers, and gave the mez resist - bang that was it, Dominators were then viable. Before that time it was very very hard going in pvp, but in fact not impossible by a long way, underpowered yes (this is pre-RV). Domination slow to build now? you're kidding.

Alvan is on the money. Dominators might be the AT with the smallest margin of error to play but all else being equal they are pretty well balanced. I don't agree that you need a certain build - maybe this is partly true of the power pools but not of the powersets.

Kiting is possible if you can slow down your attacker, almost all control and assault sets offer ways to do this. Mixing melee and ranged constantly is the way I play, parts of my powerset that are generally regarded as useless in PvP - like a pet and the patron powers are a big deal in level 50 pvp. It happens Dominators get a pretty good deal out of patron powers; I wouldn't trade the mez buff in domination for an equivalent Epic Power set which gives that benefit for heroes.


 

Posted

Domination isnt slow to build (if you know how to build it), but the domi still needs aid self, acrobatics, and I have yet to see a particularly threatening domi that doesnt have power boost (ie. not /ice or /energy).

And Filth, I suspect he is unaware of the fact that ONLY secondary attacks build domination in PVP with any degree of efficiency..


 

Posted

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So the way you say it, I have only 1 build to do with a dom? I mean, the idea of get a doom with holds and melee damage is obsolete, veryone, almost everyone, uses the same kind of dom, just wanna be original and get something fun, but with the supresion and the spines scrapers that inmobilizes you, and the 2 hit down they give you (yes 2 hits almost and you are out) think is a bit hard.

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The problem here is that "something fun" doesn't really translate well into PvP situations where people have builds that are designed to bring down the enemy as fast as possible while surviving the fight. Dominators in PvP have very little leeway to what power pools they can pick (like filth said). From the mentioning of immob, I take you're using Flight as your travel power and don't have anything that protects you from a situation where you get immobed (like Combat Jumping or Phase Shift). This is not a Dominator-specific problem, but something that every squishy needs to think about, and should be taken into account when making the build.

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Also if you compare doms in front of trollers, with the containment power they got mor long term damage and with their second pool they got buff/debuff or heal.

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Controllers do not get mez resistance, double-powered holds or melee attacks that detoggle with high probability. The Buff/Debuff effect means they play very differently, not that they are somehow more powerful. Regarding the heal - as a Dominator, another Power Pool you need to survive is the Medicine pool. With Power Boost, Aid Self heals you to near-full health with single application.

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also I already compared to blaster so... think they are a bit unbalanced in front of the others, they got less life, less attack,

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Blasters still rule the skies when it comes to burst damage. You wouldn't expect an Defender to do as much damage as a Blaster in combat, why would you expect a Dominator to do it? Blasters are the glass cannons, they shoot hard, but die fast. Dominators on the other hand are a control class that binds down the enemy and then brings on the hurt.

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and a special power (domination) really slow to use...

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In PvP, you need to build domination using your secondaries, in opposed to PvE where both primary and secondary work equally well. Domination buildup with ranged attacks is fast as long as you keep avoiding (ie. Kiting, the first and foremost skill a Domi needs to learn, and why you should switch to Leaping pool for movement) the enemy.

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everyone says they are one of the weakest (if not the weakest) classes.

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Yes, it's one of the weakest clesses, but that doesn't mean much in a pool of 12 classes to choose from. It's maybe one of the six weaker archtypes or so.

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You talk about an skilled player using the toon (kitting, using the powers in the correct time) to control a power, a player "without brain" but if the other got some brain, usually, there is no chance.

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I think the people I have fought in RV should be insulted by that "without brain" comment, if I understood correctly what you're saying. I have fought people who I consider good PvP players and survived, won even a good number of times.

To sum up my thoughts on this: Dominators aren't an easy archtype to PvP with, but if you pay attention to your build, they're very playable against anything that's thrown at you.

And regarding your powersets, My two PvP Domis are Fire/Ice and Mind/Thorns, the third dominator I'm playing is Ice/Energy, and I'll probably do some pvp with that as well once I get it up a few levels. I find Mind very good in PvP (Fast-activating single target hold, Fast-activating ST sleep. Both which do psi damage), and the way I see it, Energy has a couple of nice things going for it in PvP - Power Boost and a toggledropper-attack that is usable in Siren's Call levels. With some fine-tuning, I don't see any reason why your toon wouldn't be viable in PvP.


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Posted

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Also if you compare doms in front of trollers, with the containment power they got mor long term damage and with their second pool they got buff/debuff or heal.

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Controllers do not get mez resistance, double-powered holds


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Yes they do, both, though not from the same epic pool. (and the word is protection). Domination mez protection is great though.

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or melee attacks that detoggle with high probability.


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Domi detoggle chances may be best of the lot but they are still nothing to shout about. I dont even remember their existence these days (I know cause I used to pvp with my EM blaster before the detoggle change) TF detoggles maybe one toggle. With luck, it could be sprint. Woop.

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With Power Boost, Aid Self heals you to near-full health with single application.


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Which limits powersets like I said.

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You wouldn't expect an Defender to do as much damage as a Blaster in combat


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Maybe you wouldnt.

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Blasters are the glass cannons, they shoot hard, but die fast.

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iirc blasters have the highest HP of all 'squishies', they have things like epic armors, force of nature, power boost+aidself etc. I regularly go toe to toe with a scrapper with my blaster without fearing immediate death.

to reiterate, I proposed increased hp so kiting would be tad easier, recognizing how domis are supposed to play.


 

Posted

First of all, Hammer - I agree with your views, damnit, don't put me in a defensive position where I have to argue with you

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Yes they do, both, though not from the same epic pool.

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Let me rephrase. Controllers don't get a mez resist that is activable when they're held (or was IW activable while mezed?), and they don't get double-powered (double duration yes, double efficiency, no) holds.

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Domi detoggle chances may be best of the lot but they are still nothing to shout about. I dont even remember their existence these days (I know cause I used to pvp with my EM blaster before the detoggle change) TF detoggles maybe one toggle. With luck, it could be sprint. Woop.

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Not saying it's a gift sent from god, but it can be highly effective when applied to the correct forehead. With luck it could be mez resist toggle. Woop.

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Which limits powersets like I said.

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Something everyone playing dominators in PvP agree. You pretty much need to take a certain power pool combo to play a domi properly in pvp.

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(re: defs)
Maybe you wouldnt.

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No, maybe the guy saying that domis are underpowered wouldn't. I have seen great damage builds for defs, but it's not something you assume out of the box from the AT. A specific build can do it. Just like a fire/fire dom can reach surprising high levels of damage.

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they have things like epic armors, [...], power boost+aidself etc.

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Just like Domis (Force of Nature excluded, which shouldn't be brought up as I want it on my Domi ).


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Posted

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First of all, Hammer - I agree with your views, damnit, don't put me in a defensive position where I have to argue with you

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Hee hee

Anyway Im sure most people would agree that doms could still use buffing. With their latest change devs just increased domis offensive capabilities (+mez prot) but domis still are horribly squishy. Hence I proposed the +hp which prolongs the amount of time they can kite before having to aid self.

I dont know if devs have sorta given up and accepted the fact that pretty much any squishy needs aid self in pvp, except those with other means of healing (like kins). However, that wont help you much if you go against a blaster that puts snow storm on you. (although it IS easy to detoggle for a domi)


 

Posted

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Quote:
Also if you compare doms in front of trollers, with the containment power they got mor long term damage and with their second pool they got buff/debuff or heal.



Controllers do not get mez resistance, double-powered holds or melee attacks that detoggle with high probability. The Buff/Debuff effect means they play very differently, not that they are somehow more powerful. Regarding the heal - as a Dominator, another Power Pool you need to survive is the Medicine pool. With Power Boost, Aid Self heals you to near-full health with single application.


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You cant compare fullcrum shift to power burst, you cant compare the radiation pool, with any of the assault, controllers are in advantadage, their secondary pool, is like defenders primary, with some "real" final skills that we dont have in our assault pool.

Also, aid self, aid other etc... its interruptible, when you are fighting and try to use it, if you are hit, you heal nothing, and also, you need get 2 skills to heal yourself, taking in account you are an offensive AT that is targeting almost ever the opponent, the first of this 2 skills is near useless.

They dont get the "buff" on the mezz, but when you do pvp, surely, you will be dead before you get it, domination will not be ready to stand in front of any scrapper spines with inmob, or vversus a troller with health, or the insane damage of blaster, cause you can hold them, but, you dont have the power to kill them before they recover, not to talk about break frees: I fight a troller that uses near 5 or 6 breakfrees in front of me, what I can do then? nothing. when he gives fire back I will be dead, nothing to do cause I got no defense, and my ofensive power is less than his defensive one, he put out the imps, and wait for them kill me...

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Quote:
also I already compared to blaster so... think they are a bit unbalanced in front of the others, they got less life, less attack,



Blasters still rule the skies when it comes to burst damage. You wouldn't expect an Defender to do as much damage as a Blaster in combat, why would you expect a Dominator to do it? Blasters are the glass cannons, they shoot hard, but die fast. Dominators on the other hand are a control class that binds down the enemy and then brings on the hurt.

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Defenders, if you carely take a look, can do a damage really similar to blasters, look at one kinetics/Psi defender. For example. And also. Is true that blaster are glass canons (did you get a look into their force pool? with bubble and invulneravility?), but like I said before, dominators are too. They dont got more life, or durability than blasters. So, the point is that you have your mezzes and your attack, and your attack is too low to compare to a brute, stalker, scrapper, blaster, defender...

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Quote:
You talk about an skilled player using the toon (kitting, using the powers in the correct time) to control a power, a player "without brain" but if the other got some brain, usually, there is no chance.



I think the people I have fought in RV should be insulted by that "without brain" comment, if I understood correctly what you're saying. I have fought people who I consider good PvP players and survived, won even a good number of times.

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What I mean is that people with the same level, or the same skill, not comparing a newbie in pvp with an skilled veteran one, so, we talking about tactics and what to do, taking in account the other do "nothing"; kitting is not as easy as you say, the other one is faster as you, and got mezzes as you, look at stalker that almost ever will hit first and kill you with one hit, or a scrapper that will put an spine inmobilizing you, or dazing you with 1 hit, or a brute, or... you can do kitting true, but while you cast, you loose time, if this mezz, attack, dont works, you are dead, and thats so usual, cause in front of brute/tank/scrapper, your attacks can hit, but are resisted, in other way, if you hold them, you cant kill them (this is whay I was saying from the beggining) so if you cant kill them, they woke up, and got you so easily.


 

Posted

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You cant compare fullcrum shift to power burst, you cant compare the radiation pool, with any of the assault, controllers are in advantadage, their secondary pool, is like defenders primary, with some "real" final skills that we dont have in our assault pool.

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Exactly, you can't compare. Why on earth do you try to? The other is made for damaging, the other is to buff the damage you deal by other means. You can't think of a Dominator as a Controller, or you're off by a mile. A Dominator plays quite much like an ice/ice blaster, using a mix of assault and control, whereas a controller relies on the control for both the control and damage (and APPs if you're 41+). You shouldn't try and compare the secondaries. Period.

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Also, aid self, aid other etc... its interruptible, when you are fighting and try to use it, if you are hit, you heal nothing, and also, you need get 2 skills to heal yourself, taking in account you are an offensive AT that is targeting almost ever the opponent, the first of this 2 skills is near useless.

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Take Stimulant as the first pick, you can slot it with just one interrupt and it's still usable in team pvp. For Aid Self, slot with 3 interrupt reductions, 2 heals and a recharge. You will still get interrupted sometimes, but very rarely. (you can fire the heal while suffering from damage over time)

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They dont get the "buff" on the mezz, but when you do pvp, surely, you will be dead before you get it, domination will not be ready to stand in front of any scrapper spines with inmob, or vversus a troller with health, or the insane damage of blaster, cause you can hold them, but, you dont have the power to kill them before they recover

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This begs the quesiton, how have you slotted:

a) your holds
b) your attacks

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not to talk about break frees: I fight a troller that uses near 5 or 6 breakfrees in front of me, what I can do then? nothing. when he gives fire back I will be dead, nothing to do cause I got no defense, and my ofensive power is less than his defensive one, he put out the imps, and wait for them kill me...

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you pop 2 break frees, 3 lucks and 3 yellows, plus couple of reds, use your AoE confuse on the imps and kill him. Inspirations aren't exclusive to heroes. You can use them as well.

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Defenders, if you carely take a look, can do a damage really similar to blasters, look at one kinetics/Psi defender. For example. And also.

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If you took a look at my earlier reply, I pointed out that this was a generalist assumption about the AT and the role it is "assumed" to play, not any specific powersets. But to go there, you have a secondary without any +damage powers, don't make assumptions on the whole AT because of that. Fire and Thorns both have a nice power that gives +dmg. ice and energy secondaries have powers that increase your mez duration. It's something like playing a Empathy/Dark Defender and wondering why you can't deal damage as fast as the Kin/Psi Defender you saw earlier.

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Is true that blaster are glass canons (did you get a look into their force pool? with bubble and invulneravility?),

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Yes, been there, killed them, also have the pool on my second blaster. They have to lose the bubble in order to attack, which means you can hold them the moment they do that. Temp invulnerability is a toggle (goes away when they're held) and Force of Nature does nothing vs. Psi damage or their mez resistance. Just 2 minutes when your secondary's attacks do less damage. Hold him (powerboost is nice fried), keep spamming the ST hold on him, move behind a corner when suppression is about to kick in, avoid him for 15 seconds, continue once he's held again. Few rounds of holds and his FoN drops and he's freely killable.

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What I mean is that people with the same level, or the same skill, not comparing a newbie in pvp with an skilled veteran one, so, we talking about tactics and what to do, taking in account the other do "nothing"; kitting is not as easy as you say, the other one is faster as you, and got mezzes as you, look at stalker that almost ever will hit first and kill you with one hit, or a scrapper that will put an spine inmobilizing you, or dazing you with 1 hit, or a brute, or... you can do kitting true, but while you cast, you loose time, if this mezz, attack, dont works, you are dead, and thats so usual, cause in front of brute/tank/scrapper, your attacks can hit, but are resisted, in other way, if you hold them, you cant kill them (this is whay I was saying from the beggining) so if you cant kill them, they woke up, and got you so easily.

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At this point, I can only give you one tip. Practice. There is nothing you can't fight as a Dominator. You just need to learn what you're fighting against. Every AT and powerset combos have some weaknesses you can exploit against them, but it takes time and defeats to learn them. Also practice Kiting, a lot. Mobility is everything against Melee archtypes. Stand still and die.

Dominators aren't an easy archtype to PvP. But they aren't bad once you get the hang of it.

What other toons do you play PvP with? If you want to post your build, I can give you tips what you can do to stand up to more easier PvP builds?

If you do or don't, for starters, read and absorb this guide:

Hamibone's PvP Guide


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Posted

A bit more HP would be nice but it sounds like you will have more success by refining your strategy a bit. Look for powers that are poorly or not often resisted. If a scrapper is giving you trouble, try fear or telekinesis. If he is spines (or a blaster) try confusing him, I've seen tons of spine scrappers who spam impale end up sticking there buddy. If he is dark armor, try levitate or that kb thing in energy, some people dont have accrobatics in sirens call. Consider getting combat jumping, hurdle and leaping and learn to move like [censored] off a shovel and how to use cover when you dont want to fight. Lastly, pick a fast animating, fast recharging attack in your assault set, slot it for accuracy and recharge and use it as often as possible to build domination.


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not to talk about break frees: I fight a troller that uses near 5 or 6 breakfrees in front of me, what I can do then?

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You kite 30 seconds and hold him

Also, what marquandance said. Mind doms are a virtual swiss armyknife of mez-powers, there are some there that certain melee toons and other toons are vulnerable to. For instance, invul can fight telekinesis, but is susceptible to fear/confuse. Bubbler may resist mezzes, but will be detoggled by sleep. Regen may be diffcult to hurt and stop, but telekinesis will pin him to a wall. etc etc. Domi can get power sink from epics, which will help a bit with the endurance problem of telekinesis.

edit and one more: the only way to get good at pvp is to do it. You will be beaten, a lot, but always think why you lost. Don't write the loss off because the toon was too weak just like that. You will only learn the details if you pay attention to them.

ps. I should maybe follow my own advice. I just hate to lose! Wah!


 

Posted

First of all; thanks for all the answers, I will put the build up, but the threat was more about "general" dom status than my particular problem I just found lot of people saying /Nrg sucks, lot of people that find dom unerpowered.
People that says their assault pool must be boosted and talking about the weak they are.
So the question, more about tactics, if it is real that dominators need a buff, or a change in the i11 cause they are underpowered in some ways.
I found that yes, they are, my point is that is not hp the problem, is, the assault pools, de damage output. Cause is knew by everyone that they got no hp, but, is the kind of AT they are, so if we make them strong in the point, they stop to be dominators, the idea of a dominator is control and damage, and control, with hold supresion, is not enought in pvp for the low damage of the secondary pool.
So my point of view is that they need a buff in the damage output on the assault pool, perhaps nrg most than the others, cause got not aoe, and got smashing damage, and big cooldown. And also, they wanna doms go melee (if not why then they put the melee in all assault pools?), so perhaps this must be improved too in some way.

Last thing I want to comment is that Im not just complaining, just commenting it, I love dom, i love my underpowered mind/nrg dom... is funny to play, and no matter how many times I died in pvp, at least I dont get debt so there is no problem in this way.
But, I tried other toons and found that doms a bit "underpowered"... and just to know if you think that there is probable that devs touch them a bit.


 

Posted

If there's going to be any change to Doms it's probably a change to Domination, adding more juice into it.


 

Posted

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If there's going to be any change to Doms it's probably a change to Domination, adding more juice into it.

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more juice? what you mean? Perhaps is the right way, to difference a bit more from trollers focus the changes on the domination...


 

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dominators need damage modifiers increasing IMO, you can get around the low HPs of a dominator if you really try, my lvl 43 ice/ice dom has 1300HPs, to put that into context a lvl 50 brute has 1500 base.

Other than the damage modifiers being raised i think domination should have a +tohit buff in it to counter all the +tohit heroes get.


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Posted

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Other than the damage modifiers being raised i think domination should have a +tohit buff in it to counter all the +tohit heroes get.

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We'd love that ofcourse, but an incorporated tohit buff would make it too powerful.


 

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Maybe a nice Idea would be something like, when in Domination... there is a chance that any damage taken is reflected back to the attacker or something...

or

Maybe they should get the chance for more damage like a scrapper gets critical, or the corrupter's scourge.

or

while dominating a character they should get high res buffs from other attacks... many a time I have held an opponent and been smacked from behind by a tank or blaster.


Either way, Dom needs buffing asap pls. >.<


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But if they did..........

 

Posted

a +MaxHP when in domination would actually increase the survivability a lot and would fit the feeling of a dominator quite well - when they unleash their sadistic tendencies, they don't whine about small things like damage that much. Dull Pain -like thing.

A ToHit buff would be really nasty on a /thorns domi who already gets a +tohit buff and all the attacks do shedloads of -defense. Would mean that thorns would need to be rebalanced.


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Posted

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a +MaxHP when in domination would actually increase the survivability a lot and would fit the feeling of a dominator quite well - when they unleash their sadistic tendencies, they don't whine about small things like damage that much. Dull Pain -like thing.rebalanced.

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Perhaps, in front of this, it can upgrade the resistance, I mean: Instead of +hp they get +x resistance, including, hold, knockback etc...

In the other side; As I said, what I found is that the dominator dont fit in any role. They must be a Damage Dealer with domination, perhaps a secondary damage dealer, but they are really far away from this, at least in pvp, fighting an scrapper/tank they got you with one or 2 hits, easy for a spines scrapper to get you down while you need lot of holds to do some damage, with lot of kitting, and when you get it, he hits a break free, or just, you dont have enought damage for the hold time so:

1.- Improve the damage: Improving the domination damage or, (think the best) improving the base damage of dominator.

2.- Modify the secondary pools to fit better in the AT role, boosting its damage and, if this needs balance, giving a bit larger cooldown of the skills. This will represent th e intense damage peaks dominator can do.

3.- Reduce the defense of AT or improve holds/mezzes: There is a 15 secs between holds, time enought for an scrapper/blaster to kill you 2 times, (perhaps 3 if he inmobilizes you like spines do); the hold supresion, with the need of 3 or 4 holds to got down an scrapper/tank/brute... is too long, dominator has no defense to kitt all this time (yes kitting kitting... and... kitting, do you think the other one dont moves? what makes you think you are faster if you have to cast while you run away from an impale?).