A team stalker.


Cognito

 

Posted

After playing CoV for a while now, I think I have to face up to the greatest challenge there is in the game...

Making a stalker who can pull his weight in a team.

...

Id appreciate some advice on this. My current opinion is that nearly 99% of stalkers are just dead weight on a team. Less valuable than every other AT. And dont get me started on PvP hitch hikers or "I do the AS, you take the risk and do the work" hit and runners who refuse to do anything that puts them in danger.

SO I'd appreciate advice on how to make a good team stalker. Both build an play wise. It seems extremely hard.

Provisional thoughts

1. Spines, being the obvious choice, is out. I have a spines stalker and want to choose another set.
2. Claws seems to be the next best attack, with at least some AoE.
3. Dark armour, being the obvious secondary, is out. My spines scrapper is the uber-teamer Spines/Dark.
4. Energy seems to be the next best choice, with a few AoE effects like repel and energy drain. Ninjistu might be the other option I guess?
5. Recall Freind is a must, I would thought. No point in stealthing a mission unless your freinds can too.
6. PvE only, so no need for concealment pool?

I was thinking of a claws/energy stalker, moves by teleport. Does creative things with knockback to protect the team. Heavy end drain effects to protect the team. Possibly throw in a leadership. Do I need stamina (Claws end light, Energy armour some ways of mitigating end drain).

Any suggestions and advice appreciated.


 

Posted

Have you thought about dark/dark? It has some nifty fear effects which might be good in a team. I'm loving air superiority atm on my en/en, knock bosses down on there backsides every few seconds. Its well worth a look if you pick a set where you dont have to draw a weapon. Other than that I suppose regen might give enough scrappability for you to stick around if you dont want to play a hit and run game.

edit: oops. didnt see you had a dark. Dark primary might still be worth a look.


My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464

 

Posted

Energy Melee/Regen ftw!

...That is all.....

Seriously? If 'AoE damage = Team friendly', you're going to be hard pushed to find a compatible Stalker build. You've already narrowed them down, but /nin might be worth a second look for the AoE placate and Caltrops.

My EM/Regen Stalker actually performs very well on teams, but it's mainly due to EM's top two attacks which do nearly all of their damage regardless of "Hidden" status, which means I can stay and scrap with the Brutes when other Stalkers would need to wait for placate to recharge (or run away to rehide!)


 

Posted

Hmmm, my vote is for dark/dark. On more than one occasion my stalker jumped right into the action with Oppressive Gloom running and spamming Touch of Fear and his patron hold (add a little bit Air Sup for perma-KD) when the brute had to leg it, even critting with Placate + Midnight Grasp between two tics of OG. Normal modus operandi in a team includes spiking the biggest threat to death and immediately generating as much control as possible. Stalk-o-trolling can be quite fun at times.
But if you absolutely have to take a different secondary set I would recommend Ninjutsu as Caltrops can be a squishy saver at times and Blinding Powder is a nice team-friendly tool, too. Other stalker secondaries offer no similar benefits to your teammates and regeneration even gets weaker the biggger the team is. (You know, flat damage mitigation and all that...)
From the remaining stalker primaries energy melee could be worth a try (if power picks/slot allocation should prove to be too difficult for dark/ninjutsu) as killing fast and stunning the survivors should be more team-friendly than other sets' secondary effects.




If it has
eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.

 

Posted

THanks for feedback folks. Yes, the obvious /dark stalker I ruled out cos ive done it on my scrapper... although it is almost certainly the team secondary of choice.

/Regen is almost certainly the worst choice from a team perspective, as you say (flat damage mitigation etc)

/Ninjitsu is certainly worth a look at. The one good team stalkert I team with is a /Ninjitsu and blinding powder looks v team freindly. So I guess im faced with a /NInj or /Energy secondary.

As to primary. I hadnt really considered dark melee but I can understand the logic in terms of offering control to the team. Im still struck by the fact that it is all single target effects, but worth considering.

Energy is a very powerful "spike" damage, like Mael says. Tempting, and has good stun potential. Question is, should a stalker play to ST scrapping or throw in some melee?

Im still tempted by claws - with two AoE attacks (more than anything but spines). Also gives a form of "control" with knockback which can, if used correctly, be team freindly.


So, thinking about synergy of the big contenders...

Energy / Energy: Nothing in particular
Energy / Ninjitsu: Self heal counters ET hit point drain. I deleted a lev 31 stalker with this combo a few months ago and not sure I would want to repeat the combo.
Dark / Energy: Looks good synergy. Defence debuffs plus defence set. Self heal in Dark.
Dark / Ninjitsu: Similar to Dark / Energy
Claws / Energy: Quite possibly able to go stamina - free (both end light), Knockbacks from both Claws and Energy (could I be creative with this?)
Claws / Ninjistu: Nothing much I can see.


THoughts on this please, and also any general advice on how to be a good team PvE scrapper.


 

Posted

Personally, I would probably go Energy/Nin. Reasoning would be that it is one of the best choices for PvP, and it isn't a slouch in PvE (either teaming or soloing).

However you've said you already had one to 31 which you deleted, and I think I can hazard a guess why... it's ALL ST damage. Which despite my regularly-stated views on, you don't seem to have much PvE love for...

I'd say you'll likely be happiest fooling about with a Claws/Nin or Claws/NRG.

One thing to watch for though is that Energy is typed defence whilst Nin is positional, this makes Nin slightly more effective since you don't need to worry about whether an attack is energy, smashing or psi damage, etc.

Nin also gets the uninterruptable heal, Caltrops/Powder and Clicky Mez protection. All Energy gets is unlimited End... I rolled an EM/NRG stalker before my EM/Regen and disliked him for being too much of a "one trick pony".
Realistically you don't need to worry so much about End these days with all the IOs available anyway.

Hammerfall has a Claws/Nin that he doesn't grumble too much about... I'm sure there's a few other regulars lurking nearby that can offer advice too...


 

Posted

Well, as regards to AoE damage claws has the edge, but Im not quite so adamant when it comes to stalkers.

Bear in mind I have no intentino of PvP with this stalker at all. If I wanted to PvP I would choose Energy/(not dark or energy). Dont get me started on PvP'ers hitchhiking xp from PvE'rs..

Claws/Energy or Claws/Ninj seems to be the choice now.

Mael, what do you think of Claws / energy? Could I go stamina less? I was thinking of taking hasten and teleport as pool powers (hasten with conserve power always nice). Claws is end llight and energy has plenty of end mitigation tools (might make teleportation a bit unpleasant tho...)

Any expereince or thoughts? and could I fit in assault / tactics (end problems may show here?) was wondering if the unusual triad of TP foe/Recall freind/Team telport could be used (Canone use team TP as a travel power?)


 

Posted

I think Team TP as a travel power might be pushing it a little, but you can certainly roll staminaless with /energy regardless of your primary. Energy Drain is where most of the End comes from though, not conserve power.

Consider carefully what you'd be giving up though... Health is now arguably more important than Stamina for slotting some of those lovely +regen/+recovery set IOs into!

I don't see why you'd have any problems running Leadership providing you slot sensibly and spam Energy Drain.

I've a Bot/Traps staminaless MM that has TP-Self for a travel power. It's usable with an Endurance Reduction IO, but I'm not 100% sure if a melee toon would find it spammable. My first toon (Katana/Regen scrapper) used the TP pool for travel and made a good job of it, but he had stamina and quick recovery...

I like the jump pool on my melee toons TBH. Combat Jumping is too useful a positioning-tool for me to pass up, and it DOES stack a bit with defence builds.

You'd probably want Jump with /Nin for acrobatics (or Knockback protection IOs). /Energy could use pretty much any travel pool without a problem, but it'll suffer a lot without taking Aid Self.


 

Posted

Well, about claws... I really canĀ“t recommend it. Yes, it has some AoE damage, but melee cones are not even close to being as team-friendly or useful as the control offered by fear and stuns offered by dark melee and energy melee respectively. In many cases corner-pulling is no option in a villain team, so positioning for those cones can be a pain in the backside.
Additionaly claws are the way of many small hits as opposed to extreme spike damage aka stalking. You will hate your claws each time you face a freakshow boss in the late 30ies, because it takes ages (and a lot of endurance) to bring them down and you will try to eat your keyboard each time your AS misses against one of those. (The dark stalker on the other hand stacks ToF on these freaks and proceeds to tear them apart with style. )
Because of this my claws/nin stalker didn't make it to level 40. He had worse dps than any of my other toons at that level and had little to offer other than that. There is something wrong with a toon that can't even touch opponents that are annhihilated by my masterminds, destroyed by my brutes, eaten alive by my dominators and obliterated by my corruptors.




If it has
eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.

 

Posted

"Team Friendly" to me doesn't mean AoE - other ATs do AoE so much better than a Stalker ever could. For me, Team Friendly for a Stalker means being more Scrapperish than many Stalkers are (i.e. taking on powerful enemies one-on-one) and trying to use powers that debuff many enemies.

On that note, I'd probably go for Kat/Ninj due to Divine Avalanche being a very good "I'm standing in your face" power, with Claws/Ninj a second due to Focus having the fast knockdown benefit. Ninjitsu secondary is very flexible and has Caltrops and Blinding Powder, both of which are very team-friendly.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
There is something wrong with a toon that can't even touch opponents that are annhihilated by my masterminds, destroyed by my brutes, eaten alive by my dominators and obliterated by my corruptors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the Challenge really. To pull weight in a team.

Thanks for the warning about claws. I guess that lethal damage is a bit of a pain. I was of the understanding, however, that from DPS point of veiw claws was actually pretty decent. Granted, that means playing more of a scrapper stalker than a stalker stalker, but I guess that was my thinking anyway (being a team stalker) - and I guess the damage from AS is identical to every other AS (although different damage type).

I was wondering if creative things could be done with KB between the Claws primary and the Repel feild - I.e. get enemies pinned down, protect squishies, etc. I guess mobility would be of the essence here?

So with that point, and Maels timely reminder that you really dont want to miss health in the days of IO, I guess stamina is on the cards.

Katana dosent particularly do it for me - less AoE than claws, and the +def buff is useful to only you, whilst Knockabouts are usefull (hopefully) to team. Bear in mind this is a team stalker so I will be getting support from various sources.

All food for thought, I have to say. Dark / Energy is again looking good... but blowed If i have a concept!


 

Posted

Dark would be my team choice with /regen or /EA ( best tier 9 power)


 

Posted

Dark/Energy sounds nice and should do well in teams. Concept-wise it would be a being/armour suit/AI robot/whatever that drains life energy from his foes (by negative energy attacks) and uses it for his protection (the energy armour). Sounds scary... I like it.




If it has
eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.

 

Posted

Team friendly to me is a stalker picking on the best targets and Assassin striking them and perhaps even going from AS to AS to AS if its frequency is good enough to outmatch total attack chain damage to the end bar when needed so in low levels AS to AS of good frequency is great if you can do it.

Might i suggest a fun/fun build?


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking of a claws/energy stalker, moves by teleport. Does creative things with knockback to protect the team. Heavy end drain effects to protect the team. Possibly throw in a leadership. Do I need stamina (Claws end light, Energy armour some ways of mitigating end drain).

[/ QUOTE ]

Energy is quite a nice secondary!

Regarding your ideas about using energy drain as a soft control method. Yes this can work, my stalker does it all the time. However I find that it works really well when I'm soloing and I can manage aggro and mob behaviour to ensure that I drain every mob in the group; but on a team where mobs are quite often dragged this way and that by other team members I find it less successful. This is with the power six slotted (3 recharges, 3 end mods)

Using the energy drain to run a stamina-less stalker? Yes, very possible solo but in teams a little harder (the rest of the team don't wait that extra second for energy drain to recycle before offing the last nearly dead good guy). I also found going stamina-less a non starter for PvP (although you've stated that this is a pvp toon, you might find you want to pop into a zone every so often. Also going stamina-less with teleport was frustrating in big zones. With enough slots (from memory 4) devoted to range and end recs you can travel across largeer zones (e.g. Nerva) but when you get there you need a rest.

I too toyed with the idea of using repel actively, but never really managed to make it work for me. The only real use I managed to get out of it was keeping elite bosses on their backsides when soloing.

For a scrapping style stalker EA can work well. I found that with the shields 3 slotted for defence it protected me for long enough to scrap through groups of 5/6 or so mobs solo (on the hardest difficulty). For bigger groups being defence based means that probability takes its toll.

Overload is a fantastic power, with it emergency tanking becomes possible.


 

Posted

I wish I could remember his name, but I teamed with a stalker that had the full leadership pool a while back. I think he was Claws (since the endurance is pretty light compared to the other sets). While it was a little weird, it worked well with a stalker that wanted to play well with others.

At least, I thought so.


 

Posted

I say leave the leadership pools to corrs and MMs as they have better percentages. Oh and try running an /SR with leadership toggles. That would be taxing


 

Posted

Bad %ages aside, in a large group any leadership buff is good and will allow me to feel more confident about being a teamer.

I was contemplating oa comprimise of just getting assault. At the very least, its a bonus to AS damage, which cant be sniffed at.


 

Posted

The other boost with leadership (and again, you have to grab it for theme reasons not because the numbers are the best) with that when a Stalker uses the top power, Vengeance, he boosts the teams damage something crazy. Like 35% as opposed to the 18 or 20 you get from a Corrupter or mastermind using it. So there are advantages to a Stalker having leadership, if only to give his team a 35% damage boost the moment one member dies.
-jared


 

Posted

Best 'team' stalker is one that is able to kill or at take sizable chunks of each mobs health as fast as possible, regardless of powersets

Anyway, I can say that Claw/En without stamina is not a pleasant journey or a very fast one. Other than Focus its damage is the weakest of my high level stalkers (spines/ninja blade/energy) so I find it works as a 'fast minion killing machine'. I have repel for fun but in dire times I use it like a storm defender using hurricane (move to the in danger squishy and bump the mobs away, while spamming focus and shockwave). Its also a chaotic way of dealing with the alpha if your the one starting things with an AS. I would recommend having a very nimble character for this style.

For me the best set is Ninja blade - two cones, a knockup, a knockdown, +Defence and a higher chance of criticals when unhidden. With Ninjitsu you have all the cool toys mentioned like trops, powder and the aoe placate.

Nin/Nin would be my pick but I'm guessing Dark/Nin might be more your pick.