Kin/Psy will work well, if you make sure you pick the 2 AoEs and the nuke. Once you hit 32-33, you won't be a poor man blaster - in fact your damage should be roughly equal to most blasters' damage at that point, as you have a tanker friend you'll be able to get in melee for maximum buffs.
You will not do as much damage as a well built blaster. I have played with and played both, you simply will not. If a Kinetic Defender is outdamaging a Blaster ever they have a terrible build. Kin/Psi is a great set, but even capped out you do less damage than a blaster without any outside buffs, you can make a good versatile build, but you simply cannot outdamage a well built blaster.
Defender damage starts to become quite nice when you have a rad or a dark, along with a Kinetic, the combined buff/debuff makes for a pretty good damage output - certainly my Kinetic is extremely effective in that sort of a team as I do have a moderately offensive build on her, but I don't for a minute kid myself that I wouldn't be outdamage by a well built blaster in the same situation, and by a fairly considerable margin. I'm not a big one for relying completely on numbers to see how the game works, a lot of it is how the sets play together which I think some of the forum number crunchers tend to miss out on, but in this particular case you really do only need to look at the numbers to see that Blasters do more damage.
However that isn't really any reason not to do it, the damage isn't bad, but the main strength is in your boost to your team's damage, which is most noticable on blasters and scrappers. If the team you're making includes Blasters and Scrappers then your Kinetic will add massively to the team's damage output. Partly in your own damage, Kinetics is a defender set that allows you to slot your secondary without any real sacrifice to your primary, simply because you do not need many attacks to have a good attack chain, but mostly in your boost to your team member's damage.
My main arguement is with the "we have a tanker and a healer sorted" like it's a necessity. Neither are. It's an idea I can't understand, the EU servers are horrendous for it, two out of every three defenders I meet are empathy, over half the level 50 defenders on Union are empathy and a good proportion of the controllers, whenever I try to do anything with people from outside our SG the "but don't we need a healer" thing crops up, even in level 50 teams and from people who have multiple level 50 characters. It is really, seriously, not a requirement for a decent team. Nor is a tanker. Like most sets, in certain circumstances, certain character types are more efficient, a well balanced team is good fun to play with, but these character types are not necessarily the requirements for one, in fact some of the best teams I play in have neither.
I have to agree with everything you have just said OVWyx but as you may know (but i'd like to point out FAI) some people you can tell stuff to until your blue in the face but its not until they actually see the figures they become convinced and this is in a game where you dont if your really observent always need to get mathematical.
Maths is a good way to get across to some people especially those really trusting of what their closest or most experienced friend said who could be wrong. Some of the maths and charts i do see do make moot difference to my game.
But some people like our Dr Rock and the many on the american servers like Iakona and Arcanaville will go to great lengths to try to help and convince people and have done a good job.
I think many people would like to be able to achieve their best for themselves and for their team so any effort is great not to mention finding where the game isnt balanced.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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over half the level 50 defenders on Union are empathy and a good proportion of the controllers
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Even more amazingly, of all the Empathy/* and */Empathy players that I've teamed with over the last 2 years or so, I can count on one hand the number who've actually made me glad they were on the team, and impressed me with their level of contribution. 
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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over half the level 50 defenders on Union are empathy and a good proportion of the controllers
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Even more amazingly, of all the Empathy/* and */Empathy players that I've teamed with over the last 2 years or so, I can count on one hand the number who've actually made me glad they were on the team, and impressed me with their level of contribution.
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1) i do agree with you.
2) people who dont have an empath shouldnt point pointy forks (but i dont know if you have one or not.. but i think not).
3) people can make an empaths lifes impossible, especially those that dont have one and in some cases even those that do.
4) /empaths are controllers first and foremost who can easily have their action times making their reaction times look bad.
5) if people are missing much needed powers you should of spotted that before starting.
6) some people play badly with/without bad builds
7) in game knowledge takes time
When i see an empath not atleast trying to perma cm another defender/controller i get disgruntled and in some cases ABs on another defender/controller work exceptionally well too in the teams favour. I do wonder if some have team member hp bars up let alone reading the buffs...but i'd say ya have to be one to really know one.
What an empath isnt good at:
There are no debuffs from an empath so you get hit for more, more often and if the whole team is being hit you only have a small heal aura to actually heal everyone at once, its autohit IF your in range, it isnt good enough to react to the heaviest of damage and doesnt recharge well enough to react to the heaviest dot and so having to heal everyone all at once isnt good. You have the action time of buffs and heals and the recharge times working against you and what ya mainly got is single target buffs.
With some teams an empath being in the thick of it all is sometimes suicide as all aoes, cones and pbaoes of all types maybe are directed at you via someone else and being the one with no mezz protection and no bfs left and low hp and no resistance you can be put out of action. Ideally a get it all and take it all tank would be teamed with an empath with maybe also just the controller to fort or the scrappers or blappers depending because everything is done so that only one player gets hit really. Some quickfire defenders can be caught out trying to heal a blocked target or an out of range target when they could of been healing someone nearby but mainly i like to see buffs and i dont see them as often as i give them and some people dont allow time for them. When during spamming every type of heal and moving to people and/or avoiding stuff yourself does one give fort and cm to everyone at once?
RA for me is for when its actually needed and not cos its there and AB isnt necessarily for blasters who used Nova.
If a team dont shine sometimes its down to the team and if they do shine once again its down to the team. Alot can go on that works against an empath that most people dont see so its better to have one to know one but despite all that i still agree with you. A newb tanker can to a unknowledgeable team make a great empath look bad and visa versa but usually at the end of the day a team thats failed is a 'team' thats failed.
i dont need to sound so defensive as you've never teamed with mine.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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There are no debuffs from an empath
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Yes there are, from their secondary. I have been for instance quite surprised how good the -recharge of /psi is. Naturally their debuffs are mostly single target.
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i dont need to sound so defensive as you've never teamed with mine.
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You had good points there. 
My empath is the character I enjoy teaming with newbs the most (not one boring moment lol) , and I have so far managed to keep them alive decently ^^.
Ps. if no-one requires buffs or heals I switch to blasting mode happily ^^
rad/psi ftw
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but in this particular case you really do only need to look at the numbers to see that Blasters do more damage.
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Defender base dmg = 0,65
Blaster base dmg = 1
Assuming a team with a good tanker...
Kin def dmg post-33 = 400%, at all times
Blaster dmg = 200%, 300% 9s every 33s (BU), 266% 9s every 33s (Aim). That's roughly equal to 250% average.
250 x 1 = 250
400 x 0,65 = 260
Of course, if a blaster is buffed by FS, he'll do greater damage (duh). But if you compare blaster against kin defender, the kin defender will do as good damage, as long as you don't bring Fire blast or Fire manip in the equation, and raises his teammates' damage. A kin/ defender always running in a team can afford to slot 3 recharges in his blasts, as FS is enough to cap his damage with so many foes.
The blaster can alpha-strike harder, or do higher ST damage (not that good in PvE except against AVs, and I'd much rather have -regen, SB and ID against AVs ; YMMV), but that's it.
The blaster has two damage sets
That a good enough argument? They do have twice the attacks available, so I'd say it's pretty good.
Firstly, Kinetic Defenders do not run at 400% all the time, although in a big enough team you will usually be able to get there the majority of the time.
Secondly, you are going to be devoting some of your time to buffing, debuffing etc, in a large enough team to be getting mob size to cap on damage this takes a fairly noticably amount of time - you wont spend more than half your time blasting unless you totally neglect your primary, or expect everyone to stop and stand still for 20-30 seconds every time you need to SB/ID them.
Finally, and most importantly, Blasters are not about damage over time. This is where number crunching fails you next to knowledge of how they actually play. Blasters are about front loaded damage, even if you stagger Aim and Build up, which is sometimes appropriate, it is unlikely that the majority of the mobs will not be dead within the first 20 seconds of the fight, with an AOE based blaster using Aim and Build Up together after the first 10 seconds all you have left are the scraps, at which stage I'd probably be finishing up with some nice mele attacks you as a Defender you simply do not have anything to rival, for example, Bonesmasher, Energy Punch and Total Focus to finish off that boss. Damage over time is meaningless in most practical situations, certainly ones where you have a Tanker rounding things up.
I have only ever come accross one Kinetic who could give even the lower damage of my Blasters a run for their money damage wise, and that is not a Defender, it's a Controller which I built myself to see if I could do exactly that.
Only fire manip has decent AoEs.
You could argue all blasters do more ST damage than any scrapper because they have 2 damage sets while scrappers only have one. I'd love to see how elec/ice will outdamage BS/regen.
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I'd love to see how elec/ice will outdamage BS/regen.
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That's a pretty weak combination, but I think it'd be doable. Ball Lightning and Short Circuit (slotted for damage - no point slotting for endurance drain with Ice Secondary) and in a team I think you'd do it. You could add the Electricity Epic for another AOE and you'd be there. Single target it'd be moderately weak, but with some interesting abilities that Broadsword/Regen wouldn't give you.
elec/ice? Nah. Ice/Energy? Heck yeah.
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Firstly, Kinetic Defenders do not run at 400% all the time, although in a big enough team you will usually be able to get there the majority of the time.
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Yes, they do. Not "the majority of the time", all the time.
More numbers.
FS has a base recharge of 60s and FS buffs last 45s.
With 3 SO rech, FS is more than perma. With Hasten and 3 SO rech, you'll have 2 FS most of the time. (all the time with SS)
FS is +50% damage around the caster even if you hit nothing, + +25% damage for each enemy in range. As this is assuming a team with a good tanker, the kin will be able to be in melee for FS buffs.
Let's assume no hasten, no siphon speed (highly unlikely); let's assume they're fighting 10 mobs per group, and the kin is only in range of 6 (again, in a real situation you'll probably be in range for 9-10).
+50% damage + 25%x6 = +200%
3 SO damage = +95%
You're at 395% with one FS.
Now if you pick hasten and use siphon speed... You'll stack 2 FS all the time. Even with no damage enh, you need only to hit : ( 400 - (50 x 2) - 100 ) / ( 25 x 2 ) = 4 foes with each FS to be capped.
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Secondly, you are going to be devoting some of your time to buffing, debuffing etc, in a large enough team to be getting mob size to cap on damage this takes a fairly noticably amount of time
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FS cast time : 2 seconds, every 30 seconds. That leaves 28 secondes for blasting. Good enough ?
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- you wont spend more than half your time blasting unless you totally neglect your primary, or expect everyone to stop and stand still for 20-30 seconds every time you need to SB/ID them.
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This is irrelevant as I'm arguing kin damage = blaster damage, and the OP asked for something that won't focus on its primary. Basically, kin using only FS damage = blaster damage. All buffs and other things are only a plus.
But I'd like to answer anyway. I've played kin/ defenders, corruptors and controllers, it's easy to buff and blast. You don't have 6 attacks to spam to be efficient, you only have 2 AoEs (3-4 at most). You don't have to spam your heal when everything is in control. You don't have to spam SP when you're using FS, unless you want the extra debuff/buff against a single tough target (AV). SB and ID can easily be done while running from group to group.
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Finally, and most importantly, Blasters are not about damage over time. This is where number crunching fails you next to knowledge of how they actually play. Blasters are about front loaded damage, even if you stagger Aim and Build up, which is sometimes appropriate, it is unlikely that the majority of the mobs will not be dead within the first 20 seconds of the fight, with an AOE based blaster using Aim and Build Up together after the first 10 seconds all you have left are the scraps, at which stage I'd probably be finishing up with some nice mele attacks you as a Defender you simply do not have anything to rival, for example, Bonesmasher, Energy Punch and Total Focus to finish off that boss. Damage over time is meaningless in most practical situations, certainly ones where you have a Tanker rounding things up.
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ST damage, especially ST damage on a ranged AT (some more seconds wasted to get into melee) is almost meaningless to a fast-paced PvE team. A team with a kin will wipe everything in the first 10 seconds.
Blaster damage > kin defender damage on a PuG, but we're talking about a team of friends who probably know what they're doing and will run with a tanker.
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I'd love to see how elec/ice will outdamage BS/regen.
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That's a pretty weak combination, but I think it'd be doable. Ball Lightning and Short Circuit (slotted for damage - no point slotting for endurance drain with Ice Secondary) and in a team I think you'd do it. You could add the Electricity Epic for another AOE and you'd be there. Single target it'd be moderately weak, but with some interesting abilities that Broadsword/Regen wouldn't give you.
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Yeah, although I wasn't clear, try not to ignore the context. I'll add the part you missed in your quote :
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You could argue all blasters do more ST damage than any scrapper because they have 2 damage sets while scrappers only have one. I'd love to see how elec/ice will outdamage BS/regen.
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I meant "I'd love to see how elec/ice will outdamage BS/regen in the ST department". If I wanted to compare AoEs, I'd have picked claws or spines, obviously.
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elec/ice? Nah. Ice/Energy? Heck yeah.
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And you can name up Ice/elec, Ice/fire, Fire/nrj, Fire/elec and fire/fire too.
Which isn't because of 2 damage sets instead of one, but because those sets are great sets. If "2 damage sets" meant "more damage than 1 damage set", then any blaster prim/sec combo should be able to outdamage any other AT. And we wouldn't see all the hype about fire/kin/fire, which have 0 "damage" sets btw.
If "more" always meant "better", you'd see AR users everywhere.
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Only fire manip has decent AoEs.
You could argue all blasters do more ST damage than any scrapper because they have 2 damage sets while scrappers only have one. I'd love to see how elec/ice will outdamage BS/regen.
[/ QUOTE ]Well, I did some maths on this. According to my calculations (Using numbers from NoFuture), I came up with the following attack chains (I tried to get them close to 10 seconds to get the approximate time of BU effect, but they got closer to 11):
Elec/Ice:
Lightning Bolt -> Ball Lightning -> Frozen Fists -> Ice Sword -> Freezing touch -> Thunderous Blast
10,93 seconds animation time, ~648 damage at L50.
BS/***:
Hack -> Slash -> Slice -> Disembowel -> Head Splitter
11,21 seconds animation time, ~527,39 damage at L50.
These are with no enhancements, and no buffs. This means that we're ignoring aim, which gives the blaster additional 62,5% damage buff. I also ignored criticals and defiance to simplify the calculations.
EDIT: Also, I did not calculate in voltaic sentinel, which would boost the blaster damage further.
Did you take into account AT modifiers?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Take a look at the NoFuture numbers, all modifiers are already factored in.
i dont think thats the best BS attack chain anyway but i was just passing through as i am ingame.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Those are the 5 attacks with best DPA (Damage per animation). You could potentially get better DPS with removing disembowel/slice and adding another hack in the end though, now that I think of it.
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Blaster damage > kin defender damage on a PuG, but we're talking about a team of friends who probably know what they're doing and will run with a tanker.
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So am I, Blasters do more damage.
I know the maths on Kinetic damage with Fulcrum Shift. Yes, the majority of the time a Kinetic will function at or near the cap, but it's not a given that you automatically arrive pre-put at the 400% cap because there are other powers that you may find it necessary to use, you may not always play in a large team, and that pesky blaster stood next to you might kill half your mobs before you get chance if you're not quick about it.
In addition to which the Blaster stood next to you is at the 500% cap, doing a whole bucket load more damage that your kinetic in the same situation.
I play in regular SG teams with people who know the game very well. My Kinetic has and often does out damage Blasters in Pick up Teams, but not decent ones. Blasters do more damage than Kinetic Defenders because of what happens in the first part of the fight when Aim and Build up are active. In a large team with a lot of damage dealers a Kinetic may and certainly should increase the overall damage by a larger amount than the difference between a Kinetic's damage and a Blaster's damage, but Defenders quite simply do not do as much damage themselves.
Max, although you're not looking at aim, you're also not taking criticals in to account, it'd be a close run thing, but I think the Scrapper would probably have it in single target.
If you want to demonstrate a Blaster type that's outdone by scrapper types in single target damage, Elec/Dev is, but only if you don't take in to account telemining.
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Max, although you're not looking at aim, you're also not taking criticals in to account, it'd be a close run thing, but I think the Scrapper would probably have it in single target.
[/ QUOTE ]Against minions, there's a 5% chance to crit. Against higher ranking NPC's, the chance is 10%. That would still not bring the scrapper chain to the same level with the blaster one, even if you don't apply aim or defiance.
Defiance is not a factor at the sort of level where you'd have that big an attack chain.
Scrappers seem to critical against bosses a lot more than 10% of the time, although that could just be my perception. Thunderous Blast is hardly part of the standard attack chain. Add to the fact your blaster is a lot squishier and probably isn't just using attacks, unlike the scrapper who will probably attack pretty much constantly. The Blaster I would imagine would use both Tesla Cage and Shiver in their attack chain, both of which have long animations, and may also use Ice Patch, although that'd be less likely in a team situation. Factoring everything together, there really shouldn't be a great deal in it.
A few friends and I are putting a new team together and since we have a healer and tank sorted, I have the luxury of getting a free choice in terms of what I bring. I've been playing around with pyschic blast and quite like it, but I'm not that interested in most of the defender primaries.
Is it possible to build a viable character around Psychic blast or will I just be a poor man's blaster? I want to bring something to the team, but want to be focused on damage over buffs/heals. Does anyone have any suggestions on what would be a good primary for this or any other general tips?