[ QUOTE ]
Now that I've cleared that up: Mace tankers will do just fine in PvE. As long as you're not intending to be a good PvP toon, it's definately worth considering.
[/ QUOTE ]
At last a proper answer....i jest, i jest 
Seriously, thank you all for the replies, arguments and banter...its been a joy to read it all.
I decided that i'm gunna try one regardless, it's gunna be mainly PvE and it's something i don't see everyday (and in about 20 levels i'll probably know why 
)
Ty all once again, yet i feel this post is far from over.
[ QUOTE ]
You will NOT get a chance to unload several attack chains. At most you may be able to get off 3 fast activating attacks before your enemy is out of range again.... (and guess what? Mace and Axe have no ranged attacks) this is why spike damage is so important.
[/ QUOTE ]
It takes alot longer than 3 secs for the Masterminds i have pvped to bring my tank down and what ya end up having to do in team pvp is all subject to team.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stone Melee wins for pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. No, it doesn't.
Really.
See above: the "Spike damage" bit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope the spiked damage of the stone melee is comparable to the energy melee so much so its very very tight on the difference that you can make with an attack chain within 10 secs but what is also good and this is why i like stone is its various secondary effects. I mean hurl boulder got to love it!
/dev blasters have the highest potential spiked damage output so it should go without saying that it isnt everything.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Scrappers do the most damage melee, they are designed to drop the beefier of sets
[/ QUOTE ]
No, Blappers do by far the most damage in melee in hero side pvp. This is why you'll very rarely see a scrapper taken into arena battles on small team fights when there's an /elec or /nrg blapper available.
[/ QUOTE ]
Once again no, even because the scrapper is more likely to do more damage in melee before he drops than a blaster. Scrappers also have a melee damage modifier of 1.25 where as blasters are 1.0, blasters range is 1.0 and the melee i think is 33% better than the range but still 1.0 . The elec does great end drain this is its secondary effect that helps greatly with its survivability (and is a seperate discussion to damage) which means scrappers when drained cant do the damage and even the very best elec/elecs cant necessarily still beat the beefier sets and i have played against them. Also id rather be talking about ATs in general not specific sets as largely there is no hard and fast rule. Different powersets have niche's. Rads are the best set to goup against in facing an AV but sometimes only in the case of saving time.
[ QUOTE ]
That part of my post wasn't even knocking tank damage output. It was knocking the damage output of my katana scrapper, which is considerably more than that of a Mace Tanker.
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know how or why it came into the discussion tbh.
[ QUOTE ]
Most enemies in PvP will completely shrug off my scrapper's damage as they kite me about, only letting me get in one or two hits here and there. What makes you think a Mace, Stone or Axe tank would do any better?
[/ QUOTE ]
What would make any melee set do to deserve to be made to be any better in this scenario? I am pretty unkiteable with my tank as i have ss and hurl. Scrappers could get web grenade and have ss. Tankers without a range -fly could jump and air sup and ss. Then they cant really always be kiteable.
[ QUOTE ]
My Peacebringer can take MMs apart. He does it in 3 steps: AoE disorient --> AoE Footstomp --> Blapp the MM. Or if I'm feeling particularly evil I just pop Photon Seekers on the MM's chin. The result...? The henchmen are disoriented and/or Knockbacked out of bodyguard range, the defenseless MM then gets their [censored] handed to them via a few well-placed blapps. Now a /SS Secondary could deal with MMs this way simply by using Rage, 'Hand Clap' and Knockout Blow. And Energy Melee has sufficent spike damage to deal with a MM on their own terms, with a 30% chance for an AoE henchmen stun in "Whirling Hands".
[/ QUOTE ]
And so could mace and axe, mace and axe has better aoe potential than ss, and the difference I can get between ss and axe on a single target is negligable. Where did ya say you got the 5 degrees from?
[ QUOTE ]
By the time a Mace or Axe Tank has killed off enough henchmen to strip a MM's bodyguard defenses, the MM will have his summons recharged. Other ATs will kite you or outdamage you over time. My Robot/Dark/Mace MM could completely destroy a /Mace tanker without breaking a sweat. Bottom Line: As a low-spike-damage toon in PvP, with no ranged attacks and weak mezs, I'd stick to spamming taunt or poaching Dominators.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was talking about pvp duelling. You cant complain about any set in pvp teams because somebody can make up for somebody there is no win win. I have beaten a MM with my Invuln/ss mainly due to footstomp. Its of longer recharge than of both axe's and mace's aoes and its my only one. If an MM is gonna take me down he has to take me down on my terms and thats what i have to create using the environment to help. Mace, Axe and Fire are the best 3 for aoe. MMs in bodyguard mode dont like aoe and other sets could provide extra aoe support if ya in a team.
[ QUOTE ]
And don't even joke about Scrapper taunts...
("Calling the Wolf"??!? Are you INSANE?? I'd rather take MoG!!)
[/ QUOTE ]
No its great, its got great pvp potential and also its great to have on an AV in pve as well as saving the squishie.
It was no joke but i am talking in general terms, i dont see it as a must have and i dont see it as necessarily a plus versus all but it does offer flexibility.
[ QUOTE ]
Now that I've cleared that up: Mace tankers will do just fine in PvE. As long as you're not intending to be a good PvP toon, it's definately worth considering.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its more PVE than PVP biased. As for PVP that depends on the player and the team. I really think PVP duelling should fade away. Some people say its like facing an AV. It aint.
[ QUOTE ]
I had a lot of fun levelling my Katana Scrapper in PvE, and he's completely and utterly pants in PvP. Hammerfall and White Magus can testify to the truth of that last bit... 
[/ QUOTE ]
The total damage capability of katana is great, especially if hasted. I could at one time make it pip broadsword but i think they either reduced its damage output or were possibly thinking about it since then, i dont keep on top of scrappers as much as i do tanks, they are my least favourite AT.
Hero vs Hero isnt a priority as ya both on the same side.
Scrappers are designed to lead the team in dps, its official and they do generally if you make them and play them to.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Such a long post
to say so many wrong things,
such a shame.
IN MEMORIUM OF GAYBABY
CRUELY TAKEN FROM THIS WORLD WHILE SO YOUNG
[ QUOTE ]
At last a proper answer....i jest, i jest
Seriously, thank you all for the replies, arguments and banter...its been a joy to read it all.
I decided that i'm gunna try one regardless, it's gunna be mainly PvE and it's something i don't see everyday (and in about 20 levels i'll probably know why )
Ty all once again, yet i feel this post is far from over.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wise man! You'll not be handing out big orange numbers to the bad guys but you will be able to hold aggro and not die. Juse make sure you can get a team for the killing!
IN MEMORIUM OF GAYBABY
CRUELY TAKEN FROM THIS WORLD WHILE SO YOUNG
[ QUOTE ]
Such a long post
to say so many wrong things,
such a shame.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quoted for truth.
Not even going to bother feeding it this time!
(I fear this thread could turn into another series of endless counterquotes...)
[ QUOTE ]
Scrappers are designed to lead the team in dps, its official and they do generally if you make them and play them to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can you point me to the source that says its official?
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
Scrappers are designed to lead the team in dps, its official and they do generally if you make them and play them to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can you point me to the source that says its official?
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess this would be the same source stating that Statesman was the illegitimate child of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Scrappers are designed to lead the team in dps, its official and they do generally if you make them and play them to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can you point me to the source that says its official?
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess this would be the same source stating that Statesman was the illegitimate child of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its says so in the prima eguide.
Scrappers have the highest raw damage output per second. They are meant to lead the charge in as far as damage per second goes.
I generalise, i dont pick out sets and go well "not in this ones case". I dont think its fair to compare tanks to other ATs in PVP. They should be compared to eachother. Scrappers are very good against AVs with taunt. Ive kited most of them at level 52 myself with my SR, a tanker i know said it steals his thunder, I personally soloed a group of carnie around a 52 Giovanna AV and the next group because i accidentally pulled it without support, hell scrappers can be great.
Please, anyone! Get started on informing me with what you know. Dont just go "thats not right". Please bring something. This is research to me. Your either willing to share your views, willing to produce maths or just give up and walk away with your hands to your ears.
[ QUOTE ]
Juse make sure you can get a team for the killing!
[/ QUOTE ]
City of villians should suit you, might i ask have you been near Ipswich lately?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
If we are talking about the prima guide I would not give a wet handshake on many things written there.
But to the point: If someone says scrappers are designed to lead the team in dps it is a very inaccurate statement as dps not always equals dps. If we are talking about good builds I come to following conclusions by looking at the maths (Just looking at the heroic side of things to avoid too much complication):
- In a relatively normal environment scrappers will have the highest sustained dps against single targets while other ATs with special builds may have burst damage that equals or even surpasses theirs. (No, I won´t consider a blapper using defiance a source of sustained dps... Most of us know why. ) Very specialized builds (ice/energy blappers come to mind) will even surpass many scrapper builds in terms of sustained single target dps, but if we are talking about ATs as a whole I would say that scrappers are still in front (and will survive more beating, thus adding more to sustained dps 
).
- Scrappers will be easily outdamaged against larger groups by several builds. The ones needing the least mobs to do so are blasters with heavy-hitting AoE attacks (No, nukes don´t really count for sustained dps.) and tri-form warshades. If the team regularly fights large spawns even more AoE-heavy builds would be able to do more dps than scrappers or come at least quite close to them. So, in these situations the scrapper AT as a whole falls a little bit behind in relation to ATs with access to AoE damage.
- The whole calculation gets really confusing if we include powers like resistance debuffs. Is the additional damage done by the damage-dealer, by the debuffer or is it a 50:50 thing, because one needed the other to do it?
- Taking all things into consideration I can understand if someone is unhappy about the damage output of his tanker if he sees a scrapper succeed easily where he had no chance at all, even if the situation was one where the gap between the ATs should be closer (MM with pets = multiple enemies) and others of his AT (with different sets) would have probably fared a lot better.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
Thats all good, warshades need a certain team make up to do what they do better so i dont consider that sustained dps but every AT has certain niches in general and some powersets within in certain areas as you have pointed out come out on top in specifics. I have basically said that in this topic. Aoe damage has its moments when its superior to single target especially PVE just not necessarily enough PVP. Some bias more towards PVE functionally than PVP and some visa versa. I can understand people saying "this sets is weak in this area" but not "this set is gimped dont make one" as all sets to me are great in there own way and having diversity is good. Not many people who has made toons before PVP was introduced have all their toons immediately ftw for it but i am stating that in teams people can work together to play to strengths and cover up their weaknesses. Complete win winess of every set could be like two spines regens fighting eachother.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stone Melee wins for pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. No, it doesn't.
Really.
See above: the "Spike damage" bit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope the spiked damage of the stone melee is comparable to the energy melee so much so its very very tight on the difference that you can make with an attack chain within 10 secs but what is also good and this is why i like stone is its various secondary effects. I mean hurl boulder got to love it!
[/ QUOTE ]
I am missing bloody bay and sirens from that comment of mine but i will let that pass.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
warshades need a certain team make up to do what they do better so i dont consider that sustained dps
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn´t call a big team with a decent tank (or a similarly good form of aggro control) "a certain team make up" so I would most certainly consider warshade damage sustained dps, but other than that I see your point.
IMO there is not a single set in the game that is good (or bad) in every regard. Sure, you can always find a set that is superiour in an "average" PvE situation and a different set that is the P4WNZ0R in PvP and yet another set for a given AT might be unbeatable against a certain kind of enemy while other sets might perform so and so in any given situation. That way it is only natural that someone might consider a set weak because it underperforms in PvP (if he is mainly interested in PvP) or has problems against mob x (if he finds himself fighting mob x a lot) or perhaps because it just does not fit his preferred playstyle.
With this in mind, if someone says a set is weak/gimped/useless I try to think of the reasons (or ask him about) why he says this, especially if he has played this set to a high level. Perhaps I agree with him (because our preferences are similar enough), perhaps I do not (because his reasons do not apply to me).
So, any discussion about a given powerset being good or bad is doomed to fail if nothing is known about the speaker´s playstyle and other preferences.
In conclusion, I would never say that a powerset is gimped or somthing like that, but I can totally understand someone who does when he finds that - after having played it for considerable time - he just can not make it work for his purposes.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
The pro suggested about war mace was "it has taunt" which isnt much and yeah it does depend on the person and "shoot me" for bringing up more of what i consider pro's if ya like.
My info on excel for energy melee wasnt correct just so people know why i said i will take a pass on saying stone was as good as i said it was with the attack chains, stone is better imo in bloody bay and sirens and is good anyway. My excel is supposed to do the maths for me so i dont have to but i have to check it now. Not that min/maxxing really matters too much cos it dont, often you barely ever get to perform a toon to its best in teams or pvp.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Hi there, I'm new to tanking, but feel that there are some things to mention about Mace...
Play for concept over min maxing. In my D and D student days, I never looked to stats but roleplaying aspects of the game. Remember, that's just one way to play, but a really fun one.
Pros: 1. It's rare. I repeat, RARE. "You're a tank? Superb we need one. What's that you have in your hand? A toothbrush? A mace you say, what does that do, is it a temp power?
2. Jawbreaker at lvl 4, What a lovely looking power, fully slotted, I love making binds and knocking the huuuuge enemy into the air with my spiky ball.
3 . Great names... Clobber, Shatter, Crowd Control... Sounds like a night out in Newcastle.
Cons 1. Energy Melee does better single damage, but I dont want to carry around the glowing Pom poms.
2. Superstrength has rage. I've heard it's fab, and I am jealous. But I see them everywhere. Standing at Atlas's Feet, talking on the forums, telling everyone they are the best. In Comics, etc. I don't want to play a character that everyone else plays...
Now let me mention I am only lowly 22 on my tank, but give them a try, be different!
Clobberist Lvl 22 Invul/War Mace.
Visionist LVL 50 Ill/kin
Adventurist Lvl 50 BS/Sr Scrapper
Destructionist lvl 48 elm/dark armor Scrapper
63 month Veteran
[ QUOTE ]
Someone was in a PVP zone without Knockback protection??!?
(Tell them to STAY THERE while I grab my scrapper...)
[/ QUOTE ]
My blaster has no KB protection so keep an eye out on defiant
I went ice/mace with my mace tanker, and have wished I did not since the start. Im still not sure why I did not take energy, but I think it might of been because I have /energy on a few other alts.
It works in pve, and sure I do feel like most other tankers poor cousin if im in a multi tank team but it does work even if it is not very inspiring.
My main gripes are the speed of it, its so slow! And having a slow attack chain is bad news if you team with impatient people, it does not take much to get them saying you're not doing anything..
I'm going to hold out 'till lvl 30 before I make up my mind though, its possible the set might suprise me.
[ QUOTE ]
you should look at recharge times for potential damage per second and at damage per endurance over time, be it damage to a single target to an endurance bar or total damage output on multiple foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not for PvP.
You will NOT get a chance to unload several attack chains.
At most you may be able to get off 3 fast activating attacks before your enemy is out of range again.... (and guess what? Mace and Axe have no ranged attacks) this is why spike damage is so important.
[ QUOTE ]
Stone Melee wins for pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. No, it doesn't.
Really.
See above: the "Spike damage" bit.
[ QUOTE ]
Scrappers do the most damage melee, they are designed to drop the beefier of sets
[/ QUOTE ]
No, Blappers do by far the most damage in melee in hero side pvp. This is why you'll very rarely see a scrapper taken into arena battles on small team fights when there's an /elec or /nrg blapper available.
That part of my post wasn't even knocking tank damage output. It was knocking the damage output of my katana scrapper, which is considerably more than that of a Mace Tanker. Most enemies in PvP will completely shrug off my scrapper's damage as they kite me about, only letting me get in one or two hits here and there. What makes you think a Mace, Stone or Axe tank would do any better?
My Peacebringer can take MMs apart. He does it in 3 steps: AoE disorient --> AoE Footstomp --> Blapp the MM. Or if I'm feeling particularly evil I just pop Photon Seekers on the MM's chin. The result...? The henchmen are disoriented and/or Knockbacked out of bodyguard range, the defenseless MM then gets their [censored] handed to them via a few well-placed blapps. Now a /SS Secondary could deal with MMs this way simply by using Rage, 'Hand Clap' and Knockout Blow. And Energy Melee has sufficent spike damage to deal with a MM on their own terms, with a 30% chance for an AoE henchmen stun in "Whirling Hands".
By the time a Mace or Axe Tank has killed off enough henchmen to strip a MM's bodyguard defenses, the MM will have his summons recharged. Other ATs will kite you or outdamage you over time. My Robot/Dark/Mace MM could completely destroy a /Mace tanker without breaking a sweat. Bottom Line: As a low-spike-damage toon in PvP, with no ranged attacks and weak mezs, I'd stick to spamming taunt or poaching Dominators.
And don't even joke about Scrapper taunts...
("Calling the Wolf"??!? Are you INSANE?? I'd rather take MoG!!)
-----
Now that I've cleared that up: Mace tankers will do just fine in PvE. As long as you're not intending to be a good PvP toon, it's definately worth considering.
I had a lot of fun levelling my Katana Scrapper in PvE, and he's completely and utterly pants in PvP. Hammerfall and White Magus can testify to the truth of that last bit...