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You call acrobatics mez protection in PvP. Right.
I think I had best stay quiet now. Not a good way to start a day especially after suffering from insomnia.
ps. You HAVE a mace tanker, dont you?
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Acrobatics is protection versus holds and kbs so against some people using it, its enough but against a Mace tanker it isnt and so you get to stun people and they have a bf to get through, against Axe tanker with an epic hold it should be and would certainly make the kbs of Axe worthless. What i mainly do is compare Mace to Axe as they are so similar.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Fight me in PvP with a mace tanker. Anytime, anywhere, any lvl. And thanks for [censored] me off for the rest of the day.
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i dont know how you will manage to fight yaself i really dont.
You are putting PVP as your priority. Winning in PVP starts at the Powerpool choice screen for most people.
I have seen better quality Mace tanks than Axe tanks. I have played with a lvl 40 Inv/Mace and all i can say is "nice!".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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You are putting PVP as your priority. Winning in PVP starts at the Powerpool choice screen for most people.
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And it is this state of things I cannot tolerate, I voice out in hopes that devs would give [censored] sets better tools for PvP.
Ps. mentioning acrobatics as a mez protection is one of the most stupid things you can do as my bloody cat can stack over its hold protection. That is the reason why human form kheldians are largely pointless to have in PvP as well.
Also I cannot call war mace in PvE even tolerable if my life depended on it. That is my last word. If it is similar to axe then they both suck. Period.
Mace is perfectly fine in PvE... as long as you didn't pick it thinking you were going to be contributing a whole lot to the damage output in a group. The disorients on mace are crappy, crappy, crappy - I rolled an /EM tank and was immediately depressed by the regularity of that set's stuns compared to mace. The exceptions would be whirling mace (which always seems to disorient a good proportion of its targets which in turn does increase a tanker's survivability) and clobber (which has its uses for removing troublesome minions and lts from the fight).
I briefly respecced my tank for PvP at one time and it was fine, but mace didn't really contribute much to my tank's effectiveness (Intimidate was a lot more useful). Clobber was handy for taking on the odd corruptor or dominator here and there but there was not much point in using it on stalkers or brutes - you've probably got as much chance of winning the lottery as you have of stacking mace's disorients in a mobile fight.
To summarise my opinion of mace:
PvE tanking - perfectly good powerset
PvE tanking with damage on the side - look elsewhere
PvP tanking - ok I suppose, but the mace powerset won't be bringing a whole lot to the table that other powersets couldn't do better (apart from clobber against unprepared squishies).
Would I play another Mace tanker? No, but that's because I solo a lot and mace damage makes soloing tankers cry (it makes me cry anyways, when I try soloing post-ED). On the other hand, if someone was building a team tanker for tanking I wouldn't tell them to not take mace.
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
i feel like i am talking to a brick wall sometimes. I have a claws scrapper in its own way mace is very similar. If you dont play it to multihit you dont really see its damage, you dont see how it excels but yes multihit attacks are more easily applied in PvE than PvP. Some toons do better at single targets than groups whilst some do better at groups than single targets. In terms of taking on a mob one tank may have a hit 5 attack, whilst another tank may have a single target attack that does 5 times the damage of the other tanks multi hit attack but hits 1, the damage to the group is damage to the group so in PVE its fairly balanced. We cant all be the same until they make changes to every set in every AT so that everything suits everyones idea of pvp and pve.
Acrobatics offers some form of mezz protection therefore it is a form of mezz protection.
Mace has nothing to cry about compared to Ice melee in PVP but /ice is damn good if your a firetank with burn. Some sets just go together better than others.
Mace should be 2nd second to axe and 3rd to fire for aoe damage in teams. What it lacks in comparison it gains in survivability.
To get a balanced change theyd have to increase aoe effects of those that are low on aoe to compensate for the increase of single target effects for those that are low on single target and then so the game stays the same, go and buff the npc villains but then i wonder what new problems would arise.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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What it lacks in comparison it gains in survivability.
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ANd what exactly constitutes its survivability if I may ask (and Ive asked before multiple times without receiving answers)
Clobber mainly, disorients buy time, they may even knock off npc armours, id have to say id love that, its not as great as energy for disorient but energy isnt as great for aoe dam or aoe disorient.
I use knockout blow on anything that will overcome my resistance or defence and take down one of my life bars pretty fast, its like a controllers "active defense". Axe has nothing but knockback which is imo pants really. Id have to get a hold from an epic pool but then i wont have conserve energy to keep my attack rate up against other things. Downtime is also -dps. Foc Acc is nice too versus arachnos as there is not much in the way of "oh i am blinded". Knockout blow i can get upto 10 sec duration on a +3 sapper and solo it, so with clobber id imagine i could get a 16 sec duration and solo it and due to less single target damage i might need it. Build up can be recharged every 30secs with haste, a fight takes about 20 secs, 10 secs between groups to assess, group and say ready. With the multihit potentoal of mace id have to herd.
In fights where i have to keep my attack rate up or need more attack chains than id expect i like my end conserved, i can non stop attack as long as there are no end drains involved and like i say +per and +tohit is nice for me too, i just got to land knockout blow and if i was mace id need to land clobber.
Just like damage auras offer great damage per endurance so does aoes providing your attacking over a certain amount of foes with them.
Mace is definately more PVE than PVP and i think you get that in the way of balance in some cases. In PVP your not like a high burst damage scrapper so for attacking you need to do squishies and in teams apart from assisting damage you could be almost constantly locked on a taunting contest (i am glad it needs acc for pvp) while the others are free to have fun with possibly neither of you taunters able to take the other down.
I will say building a mace tank up isnt easy cos id want to lose a secondary but finding the right one wouldnt be hard. My attacks would have to fill the hole made with no pulverise through recharge and then id also know what ppl mean by being unhappy waiting for haste to return as the last four attacks can make a chain on their own thats great on groups. I might even consider fight pool but that would make me even more pve than pvp.
Conceptually i have no idea why clobber does so little damage, they should buff that and then buff the other sets relatively.
Whats bugging me is with the no damage aura on an invuln i have no idea how i levelled one cept for the fact i almost never soloed which is far more doable and enjoyable on the other tanks.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
And EM gets both stun and total focus, where stun is direct equivalent to clobber but total focus is so much better than either it is unreal really.(Oh and did I forgot to mention that whirling hands does as much disorient as whirling mace) /ice gets ice patch which improves survivability more than any of the above. Superstrength gets handclap AND KO blow. Apparently /fire gets enough AoE damage to survive as enough damage is always the best method of survivability. Dead enemies dont fight back. Im not touching axe which is imo equally shafted as mace.
Anyway. I have heard enough.
why are you getting so angry about this hammerfall?
I've got a lvl 50 mace tank and it's not the best but the disorients really help and the best thing is, it's pretty rare.
i dont have any real problems with it... the disorients/knockups, etcs help in survival.. not as much as em or ice sure but it still holds its own
it't not always about having the most effective min/maxed build...
war mace is fairly decent in my opinion, unless all you care about is being a cookie cutter MAXIMUM UBER build in which case, why the hell did you level a mace tank to 50
Think it's just early and he's sleep deprived. Not being a morning person myself, I can relate. Hammer's had a thing about his tanker being [censored] for PvP for a while now. I don't see him PvEing much anymore on any of his toons actually...
(I'll ignore that dig about human-form khelds...) 
My 2 inf is that my Scapper would love to have a disorient component to one of his attacks, since Knockback is sooo resisted in pvp that it's not even funny and he was originally built as a PvE knockdown machine: if nothing else it would allow me to detoggle acro and stack some knockdowns! Katana gets a pretty bad rep these days since it's geared for faster recharge at the expense of damage, but with careful slotting (my build's been refined about 16 times) it can outsurvive Broadsworders and still be at least on-par with them for average DPS.
In PvE the "Pulsar" PBAoE disorient was invaluable on my peacebringer as a survivability tool, but that was mainly because I could get it to perma-mez minions.
A single unstacked disorient is only *really* likely to be useful in zone pvp against unteamed squishies though. Duels might see some use out of it if they're not perma-breakfreed I suppose...
I still vote for that "shiny" factor being a big Mace "pro"! 
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why the hell did you level a mace tank to 50
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Because it is the first character I ever made in this game and it was okay before devs NERFED IT
We on same wavelength now? I a NOT listening someone say it has ADVANTAGES IN BLOODY PVP OKAY?! With the posible exception of axe mace is propably the worst set in PvP ever go live!! (edit: on ANY AT anywhere)
ps. If you call a SINGLETARGET stun that does no damage and is up once every 20 seconds a boost in survivability I have nothing more to say.
Hammerfall, I dont have every toon as a great PVP toon, if i did, perhaps everyone else would and if we all did, we could be drawing in matches all the time and it would get boring.
Duels are meant to be one sided in certain terms. You should be able to knock of a storm defender where as a firetank is gonna have his work cut out. There are ups and downs.
The Firetank has the best overall AOE and ST capabilities but with no secondary effects he or she cant keep people standing still.
Energy Melee happens to be a great ST powerset it actually sucks at AOE but the total potential damage output combined with control varying from great to none at all is fairly balanced.
If i couldnt tank for a team with a secondary PVE or support a team PVP then id complain but for now toons vary on a scale as good to bad PVE and PVP against certain enemy.
Stonetanks have psi resist and other tanks dont but who helps make tanks survive a lvl 52 Giovanna Scaldi? The whole team does including the tanker themself.
Shannon like you has no fear resist, it could be a killer for me in PVP, do i care? No, as i cant have everything, someone else could provide me with the support i need against it.
You would of for total damage output PVE made my Shannon look weak for almost all of the game, against carnie and malta (that make up 40-50 content) in some teams, rage could be sometimes unexpectedly helping towards suicide and footstomp is my "one" aoe that takes along time to recharge. If you dont enjoy tanking enough to play PVE since being 50, its no ones fault. I personally love a challenge but hate uncourteous teams so for me its 50/50 but nothing stops me from making and playing them and talking about them so much you'd think my fave toon was one.
I come on here, with some of my thoughts on tanking learnt from the viewpoint of my squishies not just my tank and from having learnt from other tanks a thing or two.
Mr Cuddles for one showed me that you can get teams to behave (cos he'd sit on his butt if they never) which not only made his tanker more visibly a key member but more as a bodyguard too, I pretty much only had to heal him, its so much easier to not have to try and do everyone at once, I changed my style to more bodyguarding as a result and more people find me no fun but i am happiest for it and looking for likeminded people is what we need to do.
Id love a toon like Hammerfall, id play it, its just i am a tart with about 46 toons across 2 accounts (Id play anything!) And whatever i am not good at with one toon I can enjoy being good at with another. I see icetanks tank malta better than what i can with my invuln, i dont try to play like them, that would be daft each person in each and every different team has to change but i have it to look forward to on my icetank. Icetanks can get pwned by other enemies my invuln wont, i have this thing now where i am overambitious with one tank cos my other would of done it.
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ps. If you call a SINGLETARGET stun that does no damage and is up once every 20 seconds a boost in survivability I have nothing more to say.
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A single target stun that does no damage is a boost in survivability!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I wasnt talking about duel pvp. It is theoretically impossible to duel with mace. It couldnt kill a defender, dominator, fly or ant. Anyway Im too touchy about the subject and drop this now.
ps. The only power from war mace that is basically useful in PvP is taunt and thats when its at least 5-slotted, 2 acc, 2 recharge and 1 duration. If you manage to stun somebody with clobber they deserve to die.
pps. Heck, I said I'd drop it. Off now.
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I wasnt talking about duel pvp. It is theoretically impossible to duel with mace. It couldnt kill a defender, dominator, fly or ant. Anyway Im too touchy about the subject and drop this now.
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I'm not trying to draw you back into this debate but I have defeated dominators one on one in PvP zones with my tank. I also defeated a corruptor or two, through use of clobber when they had no break frees (I assume they didn't have any because they didn't use one).
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
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I wasnt talking about duel pvp. It is theoretically impossible to duel with mace. It couldnt kill a defender, dominator, fly or ant. Anyway Im too touchy about the subject and drop this now.
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I'm not trying to draw you back into this debate but I have defeated dominators one on one in PvP zones with my tank. I also defeated a corruptor or two, through use of clobber when they had no break frees (I assume they didn't have any because they didn't use one).
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And I've seen Gen drop the stalker that nearly had me after alot of turrets whittled me down! Not to mention mace should be better than all secondary sets bar fire and axe taking out MMs...just a hunch though...cos my claws is multi target and she does em pretty well, whereas Shan she cant hit all pets enough at a time as constantly and against a thug poison MM it was pretty tight win but if he took his gun attacks as well as all his poison he'd of bodybagged me.
You know what i must of done 1500 posts or more in the tank section and so i think i am gonna invade the scrapper forum for a bit....and tell everyone to get taunt.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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but I have defeated dominators one on one in PvP zones with my tank. I also defeated a corruptor or two, through use of clobber when they had no break frees
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My Sonic/Elec Defender has defeated dominators. He has two attacks, each of which does approximately the same amount of damage as being slapped with a wet noodle. A VERY wet noodle.
The only consolation being that once domination drops, most Dominators can't survive being hit with a lump of soggy pasta.
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Not to mention mace should be better than all secondary sets bar fire and axe taking out MMs
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Axe has ONE AoE that does considerably less damage than Footstomp, and if you think you're going to hit many MM pets with a 5 degree cone you're wrong. Fire, I'll grant you has some very nice AoEs, but no mezzles at all to drop any toggles or get the henchmen off your back.
As to the other sets: Footstomp and Handclap, Fault and Tremor, Ice Patch? All good AoE damage/mezzles.
There's a reason that Super Strength and Energy Melee are the cookie cutter PvP secondaries. You could also argue the benefits of fire (indeed I have done in an earlier thread) but I seriously don't think anyone could promote War Mace as a "good PvP secondary".
Even if you're only going to be fighting Dominators and MMs you could find things tricky (when was the last time you went to a pvp zone that had Doms and MMs but no Stalkers/Brutes?). Traps and FF secondaries both have AoE disorient protection. And remember that you're just doing (fully resisted) smashing damage.
Whirling Mace has a tiny radius. Crowd Control might help against tightly packed mobs (melee henchmen?) but you're going to be hard pushed to kill another player with just Jawbreaker and Shatter. You lack spike damage output so they'll just run away and laugh at you (believe me, my Katana Scrapper knows all about it...) 
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I seriously don't think anyone could promote War Mace as a "good PvP secondary".
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True, but I wouldn't class it as a useless PvP secondary either
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
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I seriously don't think anyone could promote War Mace as a "good PvP secondary".
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True, but I wouldn't class it as a useless PvP secondary either
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If anything in this game would be, then mace would be it.
i hate pvp with a passion yet in the brief hour or so I have spent in warburg with mr cuddles I managed to kill several villains, and a few heroes by chaining knockup, knockback, and clobber.
i think it actually does have a bit of an edge in terms of single target damage and soft control, not as good as energy melee but certainly can hold it's own on a single target.
I dont know why you are so bitter about it really... mr cuddles is still my favorite character
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i hate pvp with a passion yet in the brief hour or so I have spent in warburg with mr cuddles I managed to kill several villains, and a few heroes by chaining knockup, knockback, and clobber.
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Were they doing something else than standing still?
mostly flying through the air or trying to get up again
oh i have air superiority too by the way for added knockdown
Someone was in a PVP zone without Knockback protection??!?
(Tell them to STAY THERE while I grab my scrapper...)
it was a while ago.
i guess everyone is pretty much cookie cutter by now... another reason to hate pvp
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Not to mention mace should be better than all secondary sets bar fire and axe taking out MMs
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Axe has ONE AoE that does considerably less damage than Footstomp, and if you think you're going to hit many MM pets with a 5 degree cone you're wrong.
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Firstly where did ya get 5 degrees from? I think its wrong. Secondly you should look at recharge times for potential damage per second and at damage per endurance over time, be it damage to a single target to an endurance bar or total damage output on multiple foes. Thirdly MM pets are stupid, also some people who play MMs are not always the sharpest tools in the box as environments are good to use.
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Fire, I'll grant you has some very nice AoEs, but no mezzles at all to drop any toggles or get the henchmen off your back.
As to the other sets: Footstomp and Handclap, Fault and Tremor, Ice Patch? All good AoE damage/mezzles.
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The only thing I have said about is doing damage to MM pets being able to hit them all at once is better than one at a time. Mace, Fire and Axe can get real good at this.
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There's a reason that Super Strength and Energy Melee are the cookie cutter PvP secondaries. You could also argue the benefits of fire (indeed I have done in an earlier thread) but I seriously don't think anyone could promote War Mace as a "good PvP secondary".
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Stone Melee wins for pvp.
The energy is good at stunning as is Mace but its the high burst damage thats key about it. Superstrength is like Stone, but less high burst (high burst is often what people require) but Superstrength is more sustainable damage.
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Traps and FF secondaries both have AoE disorient protection. And remember that you're just doing (fully resisted) smashing damage.
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And all the others can take bfs. Itd the aoe damage factor against MMs that matters alot.
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Whirling Mace has a tiny radius. Crowd Control might help against tightly packed mobs (melee henchmen?) but you're going to be hard pushed to kill another player with just Jawbreaker and Shatter. You lack spike damage output so they'll just run away and laugh at you (believe me, my Katana Scrapper knows all about it...)
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A tank versus a scrapper isnt an ideal situation for a tank. Every AT has a certain amount of damage level and a certain amount of survivability. Scrappers do the most damage melee, they are designed to drop the beefier of sets. A tanks damage output isnt designed to compare with that of the scrappers, but there are ATs the tank will take down easier and in some cases maybe the only one with just enough survivability to do so.
And with that i really need to start going into the scrapper sections and tell everyone to get taunt....
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Acro also offers zero protection Vs telekenesis, its KB protection not repel,
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I meant that acro will protect from the hold element of telekinesis.
Anyway I came back to delete that post but of course someone had already responded to it. My apologies but I always go off on tangents after suffering from sleep deprivation.
After quick test of mine (didnt do nearly enough for proper conclusions) the problem is the disorient duration, not the chance. The duration of disorient in for instance bash is like 1,5 seconds, which makes it basically impossible to stack the disorients since most mace attacks have an ACTIVATION of about that caliber. Its slightly different to try that with EM that has attacks like energy punch with activation of like 0.4 seconds. I couldnt stack disorients with my blasters power boost, stun, total focus, bonesmasher and energy punch to drop any disorient protection toggles so I dont see mace tanker has a snowballs chance in hell.
ps. Getting literal on an agitated person is not advisable in real life.
pps. in PvE the disorients of the attacks(not counting clobber) seem useless against anything other than minions. Hit a same arachnos lieu for 15 times with pulverize and no stun for example. Not enough testing but still.