question for ill/kin trollers

hey guys - building a new ill/kin. and have seen most builds etc. I hav found a way to get combat jump, SJ and acrobatics by skipping deceive, super spd and inert. reduction (personal preference )
However - no one else has ever contemplated this b4 (ie based on traditional builds) - is knockdown/hold resistance not an issue for ill/kin trollers?
Thx in advance

Please don't skip deceive, it's a wonderfull power.

Ill/kin trollers get little aggro: their only direct attacks are spectral wounds and blind. I haven't had any real status-issues on my ill/kin.
With my playstyle I get little aggro, mainly my pets get it and I'm mostly in the buffing/debuffing process.

Watch out with flash though, it can generate a lot of aggro, but when used wise it's a very strong power.

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hey guys - building a new ill/kin. and have seen most builds etc. I hav found a way to get combat jump, SJ and acrobatics by skipping deceive, super spd and inert. reduction (personal preference )
However - no one else has ever contemplated this b4 (ie based on traditional builds) - is knockdown/hold resistance not an issue for ill/kin trollers?
Thx in advance

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Actually a lot of controllers get SJ/Acro. Some take SS because Hasten is probably a "must-have" on most builds (definitely for kins) or to use with a stealth power. Some kins take IR because it's a "cheap" travel power, but the leaping pool (CJ/Acro) helps with some of the weak spots we have as controllers. So it's a matter of preference really: on my fire/kin I have IR, Hover (works nicely with siphon speed), Psi Epic (even if IW is nowhere near perma) and just carry some BFs at all time.

And Pieter is right: try not to skip Deceive if you can

I never really had a need for acrobatics on my ill/kin. For holds I kept 6 break frees in my tray at all times (If I recall correctly I never had to use more than two of those in any mission and most of the time I didn't need to use any - I really only kept so many on me so I wouldn't have to keep running back to my contacts for more). Knockback never caused me any deaths, and this is from someone who used to stand in the middle of the groups of bad guys to fulcrum shift and fireball at the start of fights. I did get knocked about a bit at times but generally I was able to use a transfusion or two to keep me going. I can see the benefit of having acrobatics but there's no way I could have fit it into my build without dropping some very useful powers.

My fire/rad on the other hand is going to get all the held badges. But that might change when I get fireimps.

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My fire/rad on the other hand is going to get all the held badges. But that might change when I get fireimps.

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Nah, Fire Imps are great for held (and debt) badges since they usually wander off and aggro every mob within a 5-mile radius

Yup. Nothing worse than being on a big team and seeing one of your imps sprint across Room Of Death after someone...

Choking Cloud is a complete aggro magnet too, if you have it. With it and Hotfeet I can out-aggro any aura based Tank.

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Choking Cloud is a complete aggro magnet too, if you have it. With it and Hotfeet I can out-aggro any aura based Tank.

[/ QUOTE ]You know that's theoretically impossible, right?

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Choking Cloud is a complete aggro magnet too, if you have it. With it and Hotfeet I can out-aggro any aura based Tank.

[/ QUOTE ]You know that's theoretically impossible, right?

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Sure it can. Because the taunt-effect and aggro are not the same. If the taunt effect wears off, the foe will go after the one he's got aggro on.

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Choking Cloud is a complete aggro magnet too, if you have it. With it and Hotfeet I can out-aggro any aura based Tank.

[/ QUOTE ]You know that's theoretically impossible, right?

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Sure it can. Because the taunt-effect and aggro are not the same. If the taunt effect wears off, the foe will go after the one he's got aggro on.

[/ QUOTE ]Of course, but the quote suggests he can actually draw aggro from foes within a tank's aura, which should be impiossible.

...unless of course he's fighting (relatively) high level enemies and the taunt effect of the aura lasts shorter time than the tick rate is...

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Choking Cloud is a complete aggro magnet too, if you have it. With it and Hotfeet I can out-aggro any aura based Tank.

[/ QUOTE ]You know that's theoretically impossible, right?

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Theory is one thing but putting it into practice is another MaX....you should try it sometime.

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Choking Cloud is a complete aggro magnet too, if you have it. With it and Hotfeet I can out-aggro any aura based Tank.

[/ QUOTE ]You know that's theoretically impossible, right?

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Theory is one thing but putting it into practice is another MaX....you should try it sometime.

[/ QUOTE ]I am aware of that, however if it's possible, it's not WAI

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Choking Cloud is a complete aggro magnet too, if you have it. With it and Hotfeet I can out-aggro any aura based Tank.

[/ QUOTE ]You know that's theoretically impossible, right?

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Sure it can. Because the taunt-effect and aggro are not the same. If the taunt effect wears off, the foe will go after the one he's got aggro on.

[/ QUOTE ]Of course, but the quote suggests he can actually draw aggro from foes within a tank's aura, which should be impiossible.

...unless of course he's fighting (relatively) high level enemies and the taunt effect of the aura lasts shorter time than the tick rate is...

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Well I was fighting in Croatoa with a Inv Tank who specifically asked me to switch off Choking as he couldn't hold the aggro. I obliged by dying painfully

Maybe he was just a poor tank but he seemed to be Invincibility Aura / Chaos Tank based, I was standing near him and I was the one that got the hate.

Knockback/holds can certainly be an issue with ill/kin controllers. I took Hover/Fly, as I prefer the versatility of Fly as a travel/combat power. Hover negates the knockbacks and I keep 2 BF's in my tray at all times (prior to a mission) for holds.

I also agree that to miss out on Deceive could be counter productive to your effectiveness.

Deceive is excellent for negating those 'dangerous' enemies, like Madness Mages, Sorcerers, Sappers, Master Illusionists etc, and will probably be used right through the levels up to 50.

The ill/kin build is tight but I got around this by not taking Flash until much later on. Flash has a really long recharge time and you will use deceive a lot more than Flash.

I decided to respec Flash in to my build around level 41 and dropped Spectral Wounds, which I found myself not using very much at that stage.

Obviously if you intend to solo you might want to keep Spectral Wounds.

Spectral Wounds is the natural follow up for blind. It's pretty strong when containment kicks in.

I'd rather leave flash then deceive, but to be honest I want them both.

thanks for all the input guys. has helped clarify questions fo rme.

(1) keep deceive - loving it so far
(2) keep spectral wounds - so i dont feel too much of a buff bot
(3) still dropping SS and inert reduction - but now in favour of hover and flight; as not many of u guys seem bothered abt being held/KB (plus flight fits my toons bio!)
(4) fing that Flash as way too much recharge time - but is my only AoE hold - so feel its necessary to keep

see u around paragon!

You do have a fair amount of AoE soft and "pseudo-soft" control. Spectral Terror is a brilliant AoE fear. Phantom army can really help with dispersing aggro and can substitute a tank when you don't have one and phantasm also helps by summoning decoys of it's own.

Here's a question - are you getting Superior Invis, Group invis, both or neither? IMHO, it's only worth taking one of them.

I took grp invis only. jsut from reading the description - superior invis has too many down sides. I took phase shift on my empath - hated it. Very situational - not useful for the team; and cant help team whilst superior invis is on.

I hav always been very team orientated anyways. I get some defence, can buff the team, and do other stuff if need be (ie transfusion etc). Agree that u only need one.

Wot i am now considering is.... if I slot for End Reduction - can i get away with NOT taking stamina

Why can't you help your team while superior invis is active?

It's nothing like phase shift if that is what you think.

ah i see - thought it was like phase shift - ie cant directly affect ur team. my mistake.

But still GI can provide both myself and my team with invis and a def bonus, rather than just myself.

I conceed that SI has better aggro range reduction, but still maintain that if I were to pick one - I'd go for GI.

Also heard that SI is also very end intensive, and also a toggle rather click power.

There's not one that's better than the other. It really depends on playstyle and whether you team a lot or solo. I soloed a fair bit my illusion troller, so swapped GI for SI. It's certainly endurance intensive, but with a couple of EndRdx, you should be fine. The fact that it's a toggle is also an advantage since you decide when it goes on/off (unlike GI which can drop at the wrong time). GI is certainly nice although it takes a bit of organising in case some people on the team (e.g. tanks) don't want it. And yes, except for specific PvP builds, you don't need both.

I would discourage you from skipping Stamina although it's possible to drop it after 35 if you're willing to spam Transference a lot (and go for an endurance recovery/discount power in the Epics). Kin is very active, so even with Stamina, you will need some blues from time to time until you get to 35. YMMV.

damn - wasnt the answer I was hoping for
*mutter mutter mutter over hero planner*
has orginally thought of getting leadership pools b4 fitness - will just hav to swap them round now. Ta for advice. (and to every1 else as well)

definately agree with ur point though Okton. GI vs SI is a playstyle thing. I play mostly in teams; and more imptly, with a lot of PUG as well as SG teams. So grp play, even with peeps i dont know features loads.

see u in the funny papaers!

Apologies for very briefly hijacking the thread but if I may ask a quick question about Superior Invisibility. Am I to understand you can do "normal" things with it active? i.e. With normal invisibility (power pool) you cannot attack or effect anything other than yourself. Am I right though (based on what has been said) that with Superior Invisibility I can attack mobs? summon pets? buff pets? run other toggles with effect things? etc etc? or any combination of those? Very interested to know this as will greatly effect my ill/rad build.

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Am I right though (based on what has been said) that with Superior Invisibility I can attack mobs? summon pets? buff pets? run other toggles with effect things? etc etc? or any combination of those? Very interested to know this as will greatly effect my ill/rad build.

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All of the above. Although invis suppresses when you attack or click on glowies.

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Am I right though (based on what has been said) that with Superior Invisibility I can attack mobs? summon pets? buff pets? run other toggles with effect things? etc etc? or any combination of those? Very interested to know this as will greatly effect my ill/rad build.

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All of the above. Although invis suppresses when you attack or click on glowies.

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O.o very interesting. I had guessed that it would suppress when you attack and then reform after some time.

But activating pets, buffing them etc sounds very very useful.

Does anyone know the "level" that SI works at? Perception wise... I used to have invis and phase shift on my blaster and if I ran both at the same time with super speed the only thing that used to shoot me (PS no damage) was the nem snipers.

How does SI stack up again the other invis powers?