Fire is uncommon largely due to its relative weakness to the other tank classes. A stone can walk into a +2 mission and herd up a spawn for an 8 man team and hold it relatively easily. A fire tank can't do this, not without a defender backing them up. If they try without a defender, a faceplant follows fairly soon afterwards.
As for tanking itself, just remember your job isn't to dish out damage but to shield the squishies on your team from it. I can onyl comment from a stone point of view but quite often I find myself surrounded by mobs looking about trying to gather up the few errant ones who escaped my grasp and harrassing the squishies.
So when it comes to slotting, damage isn't your cocern, damage resistance is. I've heard the fighting pool is of particular use to a fire tank.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
[ QUOTE ]
Treat me as 'teh n00b', what is the best way of playing a Fire tank? It doesn't seem to be 'stand and attract all aggro'... The only way I have been able to play him sucessfully is to essentially play him like a scrapper, which I don't want to do as I may as well have built a scrapper...
[/ QUOTE ]
A Fire/x Tanker is just about as close to a Scrapper you'll get without being one (on the hero side at least).
If you want to tank as Fire/x you'll need Acrobatics and Tough. You should also have SOs or good backup before you consider tanking for teams with 5 or more members.
At level 12 you shouldn't expect to be able to play as a level 30+ Tanker anyway. Your damage is needed at that level.
In any case, unless Jump Kick has gotten a major buff in one of the post-I7 patches it's lower overall damage over time than Brawl. Only recommended for concept builds, Combat Jumping is a far better investment. Boxing is a far better supplemental attack due to the speed.
[ QUOTE ]
In any case, unless Jump Kick has gotten a major buff in one of the post-I7 patches it's lower overall damage over time than Brawl. Only recommended for concept builds, Combat Jumping is a far better investment. Boxing is a far better supplemental attack due to the speed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Jump Kick wasn't taken as a concept and I don't think it has been buffed since I7, while levelling I knew I wanted to get SJ early and I needed either the kick or Combat Jumping. As I also was wanting another combat power so I could solo I figured I would take the kick.
Since then I have read more about playing a Fire/x and will respec for Combat Jumping as it sounds much more useful.
I guess its just a case of getting used to how a Fire tank works... Totally different to the tactic of the tankers I have seen who grab 4-5 different mobs and then stand there with a '/em dance'.
What is your secondairy btw? I have had 2 fire tankers (deleted the fire/SS one), tanking with a fire tanker aint that different from the others. Only granite is the outside of that (dance because you have -70% recharge penaly 
)
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Fire has the weakest survivability (although still tough), offset by the best offensive penalty.
Granite has the advanatges of being inherenetly the toughest and secondly at that level stuffed full of SO's. It is offset by being the worse offensively and probably technically the worst at aggro grabbing (dont flame me - the -70% recharge and need for hit on taunt aura do make it the worst although it can still be pretty good).
As a fire tank, you will certainly need acrobatics (or maybe hover), and probably the fighting pool.
Tanks generally start being supertough around level 22, and SO.
My advice is to 5 slot your Smash/Lethal shield. At level 12 slot this with 5 DO resists. This will make you pretty tough but you have significant end problems. At level 22 you can replace with 3 SO resists and 2 end reducers... making you slightly tougher and with no end worries. Its about the only way you can act super tank like at level 12.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Mud Pots taunt and slow was auto hit now... Just the damage needs a to hit roll.
I would still say Fire is a better aggro keeper than Granite though.
Putting 2 end reducers in Fire Shield is probably a waste of slots IMO. Fire Shield has a really small end drain.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Mud Pots taunt and slow was auto hit now... Just the damage needs a to hit roll.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, mudpots needs a to-hit roll.
[ QUOTE ]
I would still say Fire is a better aggro keeper than Granite though.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I agree, but don't disagree enough to make an issue out of it. What I will say is if there's a scale of aggro grabbing it's small enough that player skill (in terms of play and slotting) can more than compensate.
As someone already said, playing a fire tanks isn't much different from playing any other tank, it's just fire can't take the same lvl of beating and should be wary of large teams and pay closer attention to defender powersets.
IN general the proper place for a tank is at the front of the group. The tank should lead and lay down the law. My friend whom I went from 1-50 standing beside her fire tank had a couple of rules. She insisted EVERYONE say Ready before starting the next battle and routinely explained to people that if they were standing in front of her then they were standing in the wrong place.
Putting 2 end reducers in Fire Shield is probably a waste of slots IMO. Fire Shield has a really small end drain.
[/ QUOTE ]
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
[ QUOTE ]
I got Taunt and the first time I activated it a mob rushed me and KO'd me in about 10 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
In those ten seconds you should have the mob in your aura for taunt control, "then" debuffers if you have any should of debuffed the mob (so they hurt less) and controllers should of controlled most of the mob (so they hurt even less). If you have a buffer they should of buffed you before you start or atleast you should of waited. The defender and controller AT are to you the 2 most important ATs to know are ready. Then you have taunt control, buff/debuffs and controls before scrappers aim for mezzers or bosses, scrappers with taunt could attract heavy hitters of you (but itll probably be my scrapper if you ever see one of them) and blasters can fire at the rest of the mob.
For speed and on some maps you dont have run into a mob and run to a herdpoint with them hitting and chasing you, you can taunt as you jump to your herdpoint (flyby taunt) and have the whole mob coming straight to you. First one at herdpoint and in your aura gets debuffed (immediate damage mitigation and you may of not even been hit yet). By the time the lot come you should aim to have them all in your aura and then the controller applies mass holds, immobs to keep them there and "then" blasters and scrappers go in for the kill, hopefully not taking out the debuff anchors if any first. All of this can be done so fast it can look like its all happening at the same time (probably is).
It pays to know about controllers and defenders especially in the lower levels in case those that you have in the team dont yet have a good understanding of their own toons. I have met some that do in fact decrease survivability rather than increase it and after my saying how to play we could then up our settings that much more.
Try to have star, make the teams so that if anyone makes you tank on anything other than your terms and due to the fact that if anyone should die first its your toon (although some people just cant be saved) atleast if you have anyone not wishing to try to find a way to function well in a team for the good of all you can kick them. Also you can say to yourself what might be lacking and do something about it rather than the person with star getting a final member who is in their sg 4 lvls below everyone and about as much use as a tanker without an aura.
Remember your there for taunt control so that direction of fire comes your way, controllers and defenders are there to add to everyones survivability especially yours and blasters and scrappers are who cut the fight duration down to a minimum (peoples holds etc have a a duration its a good idea to have killed everything in that time).
If you have an empath make sure you are buffed and try not to pull forward to herdpoints as you may block yourself for heals or people may have to pass untaunted foes to support you.
I say all this cos i havent seen you play so cant exactly see what is going wrong.
Establishing full taunt control does take cooperation from the rest of the team and if you can establish it that well then the rest of the team wont need their sturdies, lucks and respites etc and they can pass them onto you offering you more survivability.
It is possible to tank at almost anylevel, imo the devs havent actually gone and knifed tanks in the back its just the better the team your in the better the chance of successfully playing like a tank.
Your there to add to the teams survivability through taunt control and the whole team is there to add to yours.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Aggro grabbing is pretty easy 95% of the time. Run in, few seconds gathering in the aura, taunt any outliers. Any tank can do it with a modicum of skill. Admittedly, Ice tanks will always have an easier time of it, given CE's larger AoE and slow effect.
Its the other 5% that counts tho. Second group? Knockback? Flying enemies? All sorts of things can and will go pear shaped. I know many tankers say well, hey ho, thats the groups fault not mine. That idiot blaster, well he can just die. Thats not good enough for me when I tank. Thats when you need taunt, need to move around, reconsolidate, etc.
And thats precisely when you are up a certain creek without a certain barge pole in granite armour.
[ QUOTE ]
And thats precisely when you are up a certain creek without a certain barge pole in granite armour.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I can agree. I'll give an example; when the nrg blaster who's at the bottom end of the lvl spectrum for the mish lets off his nova and manages to blow the group you've carefully herded apart without actually managing to kill any of them, then you've got a problem. Irrespective of what class of tanker this is a major headache and I;ve never seen a tank successfully gather all the agro back up any better than I do with my stone/stone. Mudpots is atm 2 slotted for annoyance factor and if no one hits any of the scattered mobs they'll run back to me and not the blaster, he has to hit them again before they'll turn on him.
The bottom line is this is all anecdotal, I've never seen anyone tank noticeably better than I do with my stone. And as horribly arrogant as that sounds it's also true. I rolled a tank because I was annoyed at the dismally small number of skilled tanks that are out there and given the pivotal role a tank plays in a team I felt one more tank people could rely on was needed.
To be honest, I find the biggest problem isn't someone with knockbacks, it's another tank on the team who doesn't know how to tank as they could agro off you far better than any blaster can and pull the herd all out of shape and in doing so increases the likelihood of strays going after the squishies.
You may be right, it may be harded on the stone to regain agro after the worst happens but player skill is still the biggest factor.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
Inevitably, -70% recharge and "tohit" requirements will make a granite worse at gathering aggro. Taunt comes up far less, and hitting with mudots is not gaurunteed. Additionally, you do not have the option of a quick dash / punchvoke / back to main group.
Granite is the toughest / hardest tank there is - it comes with a downfall and that is its mobility, -recharge and also its severely hampered ability to gather up a whoopsie in terms of aggro. Thats just the way it is - if you are arguing that Granite is just as good as anything else, then something is clearly broken if you ask me.
It is only since issue 7 that ice tankers have really been seen (and even now it seems that their reputation still makes them relatively uncommon). But there is no way a Granite can match an icers "Pick up the mess" ability. It simply isnt possible. Icers are extremely mobile (they even have a slow resist), and the incredible effect of Chilling embraces Large AoE and slow means they can dash around to pick up spillage in a way that a Granite can only dream of.
Its horses for courses. Granite is hard, but nothing will ever top an icer for aggro spillage. Player skill counts of course. But a good icer will always outdo a good granite for aggro spillage. they simply have far better tools to do the job. Conversely, Granite has better tools to withstand massive assault, and particularly psionics.
Not really arguing the point, just trying to clarify; that the margin between the best and worst theoretical tank is WAY smaller than the margin possible between good and bad player.
Stone offers certain challenges that need to be overcome, but can be overcome, although certain mobs will cause an involentary shudder. CoT with their acc debuffs for example.
I must admit i7 appears to have been awfully kind to ice tanks. Was doing a Nem mish with one and it all went completely pear shaped and the two of us ended up surrounded by 3 spawns which included 3 warhulks and 3 Fakes. I thought the ice was dead for sure (our empath appeared to be playing a different game altogether - I dont think he actually managed to heal anyone the whole mission) but although he didn't do quite as well, he survived it, which I was surprised at.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
[ QUOTE ]
Not really arguing the point, just trying to clarify; that the margin between the best and worst theoretical tank is WAY smaller than the margin possible between good and bad player.
[/ QUOTE ]
I absolutely agree. I have been given complements on my tanking with my flying Fire/Fire tank, who is my worst tank ( from an both an aggro grabbing and a survivablilty perspective ) and ended up as main tank because the other tank[s] ( despite being higher level ) didn't play as well.
On the other hand on the weekend I had experience of some particularly bad tanking. One incident stood out. We were on a 5 man team, we had a Rad/Rad defender, my Spine/regne scrapper, another scrapper and 2 tanks, an Inv tank ( EM I think ) and a Granite with no Mud Pots but with taunt.
We were fighting Siege's robots and were about halfway through wiping out our spawn ( of about 10-12 enemies ) when a patrol of maybe 8 enemies decided to come along and stop 20ft from where we were fighting. The tanks didn't budge. 15 seconds past and then one of the new enemies got caught by the debuff. Rad defender dies. Now the tanks run in. Afterwards I asked them if they saw the new ones. They replied that taunt can only hold so much aggro.
All they had to do to save the defenders life was for one of them to jump into the middle of the group of new enemies ... or taunt them... or do anything other than ignore them.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
my main tank is a level 50 Inv/Em tank and I decided to roll up a Stone/Fire tank for comparison.
Although the stone is only level 10 at the moment I can already tell that theres a totally different way of tanking between the two of them.
The inv/em is a speedy single target damage dealer. While I dont have any numbers on it, I can only imagine the amount of aggro dropping a even-con minion from full health to zero in one blow causes (build up + energy transfer) combined with gauntlet.
i have no use for taunt as I am constantly moving around picking a new target picking up aggro with invincibility aura and punching bad guys. If someones get in trouble I can run or fly over to the person in help.. as I said, Im fast.
But with Stone theres a totally different thing. I am more static and dont move around so much, If the mountain don't want to come to mohamed then mohamed will have to come to the mountain, or stone tank as it is. So naturally taunt is a logical extension and a power I will most definitly pick up after my travel powers.
then thers other differencies. with mud pots I get a visual cue to what mobs i have and have not aggroed by the damage figures appearing above them.
Ice/* have something similar by the icy mist that appear around the mobs.
But invincibility has no such visual cue, the tank has to guess whether he or she has picked up aggro of all the mobs.
Add to the fact that ice and stone get their aggro auras at level 6-8 or so and the invulnerable at level 18! makes for a completly different tank style.
Im only speaking from my own experience and my experience tells me that unless I have experience of a certain set I dont really know anything about it and thus I should refrain from giving any advice on how something should be played
Nobody expects a storm/rad/kin/whatever defender to play exactly the same way as a empath and so the same courtesy should be extended to the tanker primaries as well.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
Absolutely agree with all of these posts here... each tank plays differently. Good tank players are always better than bad tank players.
I would still maintain the unarguable... the maths of the sets mean different things. Its all very well granite tanks saying they are super tough. They are not the best tanks (no tank is the best, they all have strengths and weaknesses)... they are severely hampered by picking up whoopsie-dasies. Its all very well fire tanks moaning they are the most squishy - they contribute most to AoE damage... You can only compensate so much.
It also depends on how you play your tank and your standards.
Personally, when I play with my ice/ice tank I play for perfection. I play so that no one else in the teams HP bar moves. Ever. No excuses. The only time I will allow myself that luxury is with scrappers/blappers and enemy has AoE attacks (which i cant do anything about), and when there is a split team. Otherwise, if someone takes 1 point of damage, I have failed. If somebody else on the team dies before me, I am ashamed.
Now thats just me. And I couldnt do that without being an Ice/Ice tank with CE, Icicles, Ice Slick, and taunt, all slotted with taunt enhancers. Even then, I find it hard to squeeze myself above 95% of entire teams aggo. Now bear in mind i do this despite ANY circumstances - fliers, runners, idiot blasters, whatever.
Thats just how I play my tank. And people like it - they stop worrying about aggro knowing that the only HP bar they need to worry about is mine, not theirs.
But I appreciate not every tank plays with that goal in mind and gets different sorts of kicks. Personally, I love the security it gives people.
This is not boasting by the way - Im not particularly skilled... but I have a tank with only two attacks (and icicles) and have built him to be an aggro magnet. And I can only do it with Ice. I tired the other sets, and they all didnt give me that aggro magnet feeling that CE did. To me, aggro magnetism is how I judge a tank, and myself, so I cant really go back.
Long winded baloney this post, sorry!
Maurdecay is right that teams playing with different tankers deserve a different playstyle with different expectations as does teaming with different defenders,controllers, blasters and meh maybe scrappers:P. Even secondaries, powerpools and epics make variances of playstyle on different ATs. These differences of playstyles will mean the difference of making even a granite stonetank (with good slotting and powerchoice) as safe as having an icetank. However with firetanks it depends on enemy and buffs more than anyother.
When it comes to aggro consolidation we have these needs:
Firetanks could do with tohit buffs (versus some types of enemy).
Stonetanks could do with speedboosts (but not necessarily versus any enemy at all but perhaps say enemies that tp could be more of a pain to keep taunted).
invulns need more time to establish just who exactly isnt taunted more as there is no sign from invincible before people attack.
ice well has no prob.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
There is a confounding factor here regarding the speed of movement of granite tanks...teleport.
Teleport allowed me to grab aggro here with mudpots, TP there to pick up more aggro and use taunt to pick up any stragglers who had lost interest.
TP linked to a mouse click bind is pretty fast to activate so you can pop all over the field of combat if need be.
@Moondog
Union:
CoH: Moondog (WS); V-Rock (Tnk, semi-retired); Pole-Star (Bla); Demon Dog (Scr).
CoV: Midnight Gunner (Corr); Operative John Doe (Ban); Day-Star (Dom); Commissar Jaeger (MM).
[ QUOTE ]
And thats precisely when you are up a certain creek without a certain barge pole in granite armour.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is why I'm seriously considering getting into the Presence Power Pool with my Stone/Fire. Seeing as I'm rooted a lot of the time, I figure that some extra means of taunting at a distance would compensate for the difficulty of moving around. Does this make sense to any of the vets here?
(I appreciate the teleport thing, but - maybe I'm just a klutz - while teleporting around in-battle is ok in outdoor maps where I can zoom out, I find it difficult to use in enclosed indoor maps.)
[ QUOTE ]
This is why I'm seriously considering getting into the Presence Power Pool with my Stone/Fire. Seeing as I'm rooted a lot of the time, I figure that some extra means of taunting at a distance would compensate for the difficulty of moving around. Does this make sense to any of the vets here?
(I appreciate the teleport thing, but - maybe I'm just a klutz - while teleporting around in-battle is ok in outdoor maps where I can zoom out, I find it difficult to use in enclosed indoor maps.)
[/ QUOTE ]
1st question; Why are you spending most of your time rooted? Even against +3 or 4 mobs rooted isn't need that often. Hell, even against +5 mobs I never found I needed it very much.
Secondly, teleporting around can be dangerous on the team as you may lose the agro gathered around in your mudpots. I try to stay still and, if possible, stand in a chocke point so the mobs have to run through the mudpots to get to the rest of the team.
Taking the 2nd taunt is not unreasonable, but just remember there's a to-hit roll required on the presence pool version so slot of accuracy.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is why I'm seriously considering getting into the Presence Power Pool with my Stone/Fire. Seeing as I'm rooted a lot of the time, I figure that some extra means of taunting at a distance would compensate for the difficulty of moving around. Does this make sense to any of the vets here?
(I appreciate the teleport thing, but - maybe I'm just a klutz - while teleporting around in-battle is ok in outdoor maps where I can zoom out, I find it difficult to use in enclosed indoor maps.)
[/ QUOTE ]
1st question; Why are you spending most of your time rooted?
[/ QUOTE ]
Good question. I guess it's because my Stone/Fire is at 15, and atm I haven't got any other armours than Stone Skin and the passive one, so I rely on Rooted's regen (plus EE) to keep me alive. Plus, I absolutely hate knockback. I've actually gotten quite used to turning Rooted on and off quickly when it's necessary to move.
[ QUOTE ]
Good question. I guess it's because my Stone/Fire is at 15, and atm I haven't got any other armours than Stone Skin and the passive one, so I rely on Rooted's regen (plus EE) to keep me alive. Plus, I absolutely hate knockback. I've actually gotten quite used to turning Rooted on and off quickly when it's necessary to move.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, I spent most of my time rooted at that lvl as well. You should have taken sprint and at least be working towards 3 slotting it. By the time you hit 22 and SO territory you can move at a respectable pace.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good question. I guess it's because my Stone/Fire is at 15, and atm I haven't got any other armours than Stone Skin and the passive one, so I rely on Rooted's regen (plus EE) to keep me alive. Plus, I absolutely hate knockback. I've actually gotten quite used to turning Rooted on and off quickly when it's necessary to move.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, I spent most of my time rooted at that lvl as well. You should have taken sprint and at least be working towards 3 slotting it. By the time you hit 22 and SO territory you can move at a respectable pace.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you meant Swift from the Fitness pool, since Sprint breaks Rooted.
I went without Teleport but I don't doubt that stone tanks with it do a better job, I'll almost certainly respec into it. PvP with a stone tank is effectively pointless without TP.
I have played CoH for ages now and have taken the only toon I have really played to 50 at last (Rad/Rad Defender).
I looked at other archetypes (notably the PB) but couldn't get into it so I turned my attention to a tanker as they looked like fun.
I have built a Fire/Fire tank and taken him to Lvl12 so far, however I am finding that the play style of how a tanker works is still beyond me. The tankers that I had played with in the past were pretty much all Stone with Granite Form.
I avoided Granite because I had seen it so much but hadn't seen anyone play Fire.
Attempting to emulate the other tankers has done nothing but faceplant me... All I saw them do was aggro the biggest mob they can and allow the other members of the team to mug them while holding the aggro. I got Taunt and the first time I activated it a mob rushed me and KO'd me in about 10 seconds.
Treat me as 'teh n00b', what is the best way of playing a Fire tank? It doesn't seem to be 'stand and attract all aggro'... The only way I have been able to play him sucessfully is to essentially play him like a scrapper, which I don't want to do as I may as well have built a scrapper...
The build so far:
Fire Aura:
Blazing Aura
Fire Shield
Healing Flames
Plasma Shield
Fire Melee:
Scorch
Fire Sword
Taunt
Super Jump PP:
Jump Kick