Not much of a shock dropping ressurect, it's not a terribly useful power anyway... probably more useful in pvp than elsewhere though...
Empaths better than other empaths? Is that a trick question?
Nope!
If anyone can come up with a convincing argument why empaths are better than other defenders in a GOOD team post level 20, i'd like to hear it...
Infact Id like to hear anyone argue why empaths are EQUAL to other defenders under such circumstances...
My logic is simple:
Empaths: 3 AoE powers, 6 single target powers... (and one of them is regeneration aura which is a highly dubious AoE)
Worst AoE / Single target ratio of any defender (IIRC and if you count sonic/ff single buffs as recharging so quick they buff the whole team)... therefore least valuable in any
group...
Logical replies only please 
Uhm... I think you forgot to properly read what you and we wrote... no one mentioned a DEFENDER, just EMPATHS being better (or worse) than EMPATHS... doesn't make too much sense to me, hehe... The true horror though is the City of Villains team search list with half the corruptors calling themselves healers already...
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Nope!
If anyone can come up with a convincing argument why empaths are better than other defenders in a GOOD team post level 20, i'd like to hear it...
Infact Id like to hear anyone argue why empaths are EQUAL to other defenders under such circumstances...
My logic is simple:
Empaths: 3 AoE powers, 6 single target powers... (and one of them is regeneration aura which is a highly dubious AoE)
Worst AoE / Single target ratio of any defender (IIRC and if you count sonic/ff single buffs as recharging so quick they buff the whole team)... therefore least valuable in any
group...
Logical replies only please
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ok heres my logical reply, all IMO of course: regeneration aura a dubious AoE.....yes if u dont like making u and everyone around u a regen scrapper...
fort is amazin by itself....power build up+fort makes u almost untouchable
clear mind makes u unholdable if cast perma
absorb pain....best heal in the game
heal other....not as good as transerence but can be cast on an ally, does not require an enemy AoE and hits every time
adrenalin boost...dont really need to say anything about this power do i?
do i really need to go on? please feel free to tell me why im wrong in believing empaths are the dogs b******s
Well, its simply this...
All defender powers are useful, and should be balanced.. in my opinion they are. Yes, all/most empath powers are great. But, all/most defender powers are great with a few exceptions.
So, from experience my opinion is that nothing is better than an empath on a chaotic PuG... absolutely nothing, it stands head and shoulders above anything else period. But in good teams above lvl 20, again, in my experience, they do not RELATIVELY shine.
I come back to, again, the logic of AoE/Single target effects. Like all toons, the higher this ration, the relatively better they will be in large teams and the relatively worse they will be in small teams. Empaths has a very low ratio compared to other teams. This logic applies to all toons - e.g. a spine scrapper is much more useful in a large team than a MA scrapper. Scrappers are worse in large teams than blasters. A defender who takes leadership pools is more useful than one who takes hasten, invisibility and phase shift.
I appreciate your opinion is that empath powers ROCK, and good for you. I just happen to have the above formula for how useful toons are in teams, and empaths do relatively badly compared to other defenders. All the powers you mention are great, no question, except they tend to be single target effects. Rad/Dark debuffs are far less visible, but are almost entirely AoE and take the sting out of all enemies IF PLAYED CORRECTLY.
I should note that defenders always have a very high value in big teams, bigger than any other toon. So, im comparing defender primaries with each other, not toons in general.
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...and one of them is regeneration aura which is a highly dubious AoE...
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You havnt tried a powerboosted regen aura, have you?
A Paragon Defender
Prevention > Cure
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No I wouldnt say empathy has had its day. Just that people woke up that its not a must which is good. Although Im finding an increasing amount of layers not picking them in teams to prove a point. That is what bothers me.
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No defender is a must, but if I had a choice I'd take a good empath ANY day, and twice on Sunday's. A good empath turns a scrapper into a tank and a tank into an indestructable lump of flesh.
If you find yourself in a position where you're not thinking; an empath would be quite useless right about now then in my experience its because the mission you're doing is...
TOO EASY.
I'll never say no to fortitude, a heal or recovery aura and my main is a regen scrapper.
However good empaths are few and far between. A good empath ignores the mobs and focuses on the team, keeping CM sunning on everyone, trying to keep fort running on as many people as possible as well as healing where its needed. the mobs? they're someone else's problem.
How many empaths actually display that atitude?
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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However good empaths are few and far between. A good empath ignores the mobs and focuses on the team, keeping CM sunning on everyone, trying to keep fort running on as many people as possible as well as healing where its needed. the mobs? they're someone else's problem.
How many empaths actually display that atitude?
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I do! I also have a trick archery defender (needs tweaking) but have to say all defender sets rock! I dont have leaderships on my empath cos i can buff the acc, dam and defence and the idea of me wishing anyone would die so i can use vengeance is just sick-minded! My trick archer does have leaderships just in case (am gettin med pool res soon).
I will support cognito in saying when it comes to newbie like teams its sometimes considered/is empaths ftw, when it comes to teams that know what they are doing its any defender ftw.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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No I wouldnt say empathy has had its day. Just that people woke up that its not a must which is good. Although Im finding an increasing amount of layers not picking them in teams to prove a point. That is what bothers me.
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No defender is a must, but if I had a choice I'd take a good empath ANY day, and twice on Sunday's. A good empath turns a scrapper into a tank and a tank into an indestructable lump of flesh.
If you find yourself in a position where you're not thinking; an empath would be quite useless right about now then in my experience its because the mission you're doing is...
TOO EASY.
I'll never say no to fortitude, a heal or recovery aura and my main is a regen scrapper.
However good empaths are few and far between. A good empath ignores the mobs and focuses on the team, keeping CM sunning on everyone, trying to keep fort running on as many people as possible as well as healing where its needed. the mobs? they're someone else's problem.
How many empaths actually display that atitude?
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i agree completely
Obviously where it says "useless" that should read "useful".
I should stop posting while I'm at work 
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
Given the glutton of empaths around (about 80-90% of all defenders at a guess 
)? are people saying that empaths are actually better than other defenders based on experience?
THere is of course a psychological effect of "seeing" green numbers occur bigger and more frequently with empaths, whilst other effects are far more subtle (Hey my scrapper rocks! hes whipping through these +4's - 2 Trick Archers leave team - faceplant).
If it really is the case that empaths are so much better than any other defender (and I personally think this is far from the case - I actually think empaths need buffing), then thats a serious problem with balance which does need to be addressed
i think its psychological, with a trick archer health can drop and people are thinking "ok whose gonna put that back?" and what if more health drops essentially i am talking at lower levels. Also at the end of the fight some may need to rest to put health back before the next one which maybe an inconvenience. Its not always open maps and great teams for everyone.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Given the glutton of empaths around (about 80-90% of all defenders at a guess )? are people saying that empaths are actually better than other defenders based on experience?
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I am. I have nothing against any type of defender, but if given the choice I'd choose an empath everytime. I've seen them keep a team alive in situations that didn't seem possible to survive.
I stress the "good" empath. I;ve seen empaths stand about with their hands in their pockets whilst my PB takes a pummelling from a quantum.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
My character Cosmic Monk has been struggling to get invites from lvl 17. Am currently Lvl 19 and have no future because my other power is arrows, waste of time on your own if you ask me. Reading other comments looks like this character will be no good to anyonw from lvl 30.
Main 50 & Badger Nine Claws Claws/Regen/Body
Other 50's Ph10x Brute Unjust Law Tanker Samantha Urai Scrapper Codename 1250 Scrapper
Cepheus Defender Nilus Scrapper Electro Field Blaster S.PONGE Tanker
Everyone is struggling for invites (unless it's from people you know).
I dinged 50 recently, so I've started focusing on my alts and I'm noticing a considerable difference between the game is now and what it was like then (maybe 4-5 months ago)... I could go on and on, suffice to say, this isn't an AT or build issue.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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My character Cosmic Monk has been struggling to get invites from lvl 17. Am currently Lvl 19 and have no future because my other power is arrows, waste of time on your own if you ask me. Reading other comments looks like this character will be no good to anyonw from lvl 30.
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Not getting invites is depressing, I've been there. Normally being in an active supergroup helps, but not always. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and solo, or spend 5-10 minutes sending tells to people to get in teams.
As for your future in higher levels I think you are missing the point. I'm not a huge fan of empaths specifically as some are on this thread. However a good defender of any team is very worthwhile. The main argument on this thread seems to be whether or not a good empath is better on a good team than a good rad/dark/kin/storm etc. Any defender is better than none and makes a large difference to what a team can take on. Empaths really are in demand due to most players love of healing.
I have a Rad/archery defender, whilst archery is not necessarily the best secondary it has one of the best single target attacks in Blazing Arrow. As a result of this the single target attack chain is actually better than many of the others including electrical and energy, it also doesn't need many attacks ( 3 IIRC ). Defenders do not do decent damage unless buffed. Also Archery is probably going to get some sort of positive change in I7 according to some posts by Castle.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
If a defender cant get a team, then there is a real problem. If an EMPATH cant get a team, when PuG and Noobies dont think any other kind of defender is anything other than a leech, and at that level... 
just noticed this thread, i made an empath called lost defender a few days ago, before ieven new about thsi thread, strange....
sometimes its just hard to find a team, been trying to get teams all week and today i log on for about 10 mins and get loads of tells asking to join
I wanted to see if what I was reading was true, I logged in as my empath last night and got invited onto two teams without any problems. What really stuck out was how poor my damage output was. Great night on both teams but I remember why many empaths ignore their secondary.
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I wanted to see if what I was reading was true, I logged in as my empath last night and got invited onto two teams without any problems. What really stuck out was how poor my damage output was. Great night on both teams but I remember why many empaths ignore their secondary.
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That pretty much mirrors my experience 100% across the board. Yesterday I logged my empath on very briefly, purely to take some pics of her for an SG costume competition, and I got two team invites in the few minutes she was on. Happens all the time. As to damage output, heh, don't make me laugh, the only reason I currently have ANY powers from my energy plaster secondary is that I literally cannot take anymore from empathy, and I already have all the pool powers I need and many I don't, and cannot take any more pools.
"I will play withany one who is polite, a bit chatty, and fun.
But, at lvls 30+ i find empaths a bit redudant to be honest. Much rather have kinetics, rad, dark, or to be honest any other defender (exception - TA... that really needs a sort out)."
there is nothing wrong with TA in my mind, its just that because of the whole "hypnotised by green lights" u were talking about most TAi no switch to empath to get teams cuz no one nos the benefit of debuffs at lower lvls ( except veterans of course) so no one learned how to use it rite, i find i can solo better than a blaster with TA and i have done the entire hollows lower mishes with out gettin one person killed in my team with no healer... athought i do agree its hard to learn how to use and u do often have to explain ur tactics tot he team ( such as flash arrow doesn't aggro groups) sorry if i ddi the quote thing wrong i don't usually use forumns
Empaths redundant at 30+ ?!?
If you're playing an 8 man invincible mission an empath is NEVER redundant.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
sigh, i honestly feel the ppl who dont like empaths have never actually teamed with a good empath
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All defenders (in fact all toons, except maybe rad/energy defenders *shudder*) rock... its whether empaths rock more than other empaths...
I dont think they do at all
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empaths rock more than other empaths? u talking bout players behind the empath cos if so then yea a good player with an empath is far superior to a bad player with an empath