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Can I ask how many alts you've played. Not being sarky or anything, just asking over your "Levelling is easy" comment. Cos it's not for a lot of ATs. My Flame Tank is currently 27 and finds it hard going. My Spines / Dark scrapper is only 12 and again its difficult for him.
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I've played most CoH AT's up to the mid 20's (exceot tank) and a Defender to 38 before I switched to a different game for a while.
CoV, I've got a 30 Mastermind Ninja/Dark a 12 Mastermind Ninja/Trick Arrow (which im testing out) a 10 Mastermind Zombie/Poisons a 17 Stalker Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu and a 12 Brute Strength/Invuln.
So yeah I've played quite a few. Each AT has different styles of how it can level on its own...cos were talking Solo here only, as per my other comment if your in a group your all leveling at the same time.
With my stalker its Assassin Strike and run if the spawn is too big, My Brute, hope that my rage gets up enough. My defender would just sniper, control, kill a few and run then return. I never felt like any one of my characters was overtly more powerful than any other.
My stalker and Brute certainly use rest more than my Mastermind but then they dont have to stand at the door of a mission and regen a full bar of end before they start either.
Not all Masterminds can heal. Im testing this out with Trick Arrow and Ninja right now. Only poisons and dark have direct person heals. traps has the beacon and trick arrow has none. Only Robots and Mercs have primary heals for their Pets with repair bot and repair skill and Merc with Medic. Ninja has none and Undead have siphon.
To concede a point here. I DO think that certain configs of MM are no doubt easier to play than others, Robots and Forcefields come to mind here. But time and time again you will find people who say they cant play a scrapper for love nor money but they can play a blaster. Maybe one of the MM configs is just more universally acceptable to play than others.
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Hell, my Corrupter got to level 8 quicker than Dread got to 7 and she solo'd the entire way, Dread has his bot's to help.
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LOL. Thats not quite a fair comparison. A MM with just his minions is soloing too.
The point Jack made about different powerset combos is a good one too. But the nerf bat is an AOE weapon in general...
Yeah my Necro/Dark seems to be one of the combos that melds particularly well. The debuffs are mostly to accuracy so my pets never get hit. And when they do the AOE heal sorts them all out. Plus it looks cool, which is always important 
The only character who feels more powerful is my Illusionist/Storm. But she's 39 so it could be just the flashyness of the high level powers.
A MM without a heal would certainly be a different kettle of fishheads. Especially soloing. Good luck with him.
I just wanted to say what a great post. I've given you 5 stars I like it so much (unfortunately post ED 5 "new" stars are only worth 2 "old" stars)
You've also kept the discussion moving on nicely - much kudos to you.
As for MM's they are a momentary abberation and will soon pass as people realise that playing the game on auto pilot is no fun at all.
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But is the reason MMs is the most popular AT that they are the most powerful or because they are more fun and completetly diffrent from CoH ATs?
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I would say a combination. But the reason is not terribly important, if an AT is in majority, there will be nerfs to support *other aspects* of the game. No matter how old and boring they might seem.
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All the other CoV ATs is just a sligthly diffrent version of an CoH AT. Corruptor/Blaster is shoty, Tank/brute is punchy etc. So isn't it possible that many old CoH players choose MM because they were new.
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It is tempting to believe that controllers that had their pets seriously nerfed, now go the MM way. Why was the controller pets nerfed you think? This is a big warning sign, if you ask me.
Sure old players want something new. But perhaps this new AT was made too interesting compared to the old recycled ones. Maybe someone believe the MM must be made less interesting, so that the other AT's can be better represented. That's what they call balance. Even though it's a weakness in the design. Making the other AT's more interesting instead, would be pretty unique and goes against that famous statement regarding power changes.
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Besides MMs is really funny to play. You can give your pets wierd emotes and make them talk.
IMHO that's the main reason why MMs is so poular not that they are a more powerfull AT than others.
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It's interesting to note that we are not supposed to have *fun* in certain ways. Sometimes *fun* are defined by some developer, despite what the players say.
Additionally, not all the players find pets amusing, and some might even launch campaigns against them. Some find anything besides mechanical experience collecting, a waste of time. ;-)
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Besides it seems like ppl think that MM level faster. If that's so how come all the players that started out at the same time as me has kept up to my level pace? Not to mention that not matter AT it allways take me about the same time to get it to lvl 14.
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When players team, they will level at the same speed. The first levels can be navigated solo by most builds quite fast as well. The MM has it's own team, and can take on more enemies than most solo players, this will be more pronounced as we progress in levels. This make the MM a target for nerfs, because of the famous 3 minions vs. 1 Hero/Villain rule, that is so incredibly important, for some reason.
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More stars for you Grav. Nicely put indeed.
Actually I've just started a corrupter alt and I've noticed theres loads of corrupters running around Mercy now. Have all the MMs made new alts? It'll be interesting to check the /who list in a few months to get the percents of ATs playing.
HOLD EVERYTHING! STOP THE NERFS! HOLD THAT BAT BACK, I SAY!
The MM is already quite a difficult class to play for several reasons:
- insane pet behaviours ("NO! NO! Bad bot! Leave the nice Malta Titan alone! He's just being friendly really.. *gulp*)"
- the ability to take on lots of minions at one time before being promptly one-shotted by anything marked "Boss"
- Being overwhelmed if you're not very careful about pet management (see #1)
...and therefore does not need nerfage.
At the VERY MOST, you could switch the sets around - with your pets becoming your secondaries and the final upgrade power at 38.
BUT NO NERFING! BAN THE NERFS! BAN THE NERFS!
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
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As for MM's they are a momentary abberation and will soon pass as people realise that playing the game on auto pilot is no fun at all.
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Speak for your self, I don't play on auto pilot, never have never will, Any one who thinks MMs can just sit back and rake in the XP ought to try it,s ure at low levels on easy its not difficult, but later on when the missions have multiple bosses and you no longer play at easies setting if you sit back you pets end up dead very quickly.
Just gone up against a Orange warshade in a mission, it was a boss. It killed every pet I had in one hit then tried to get me, thank god for TP and fly. I failed that mission (not sure it can be done) but most other ATs would have had of a problem, they have better defenses and attacks.
Good post, LN. Just gotten my assault bot (yay) and upped my mish-difficulty a cpl notches. Whoa - cue bosses with AoEs that take out 80% of drones health and 50% of prots in one hit. The only reason they didn't insta-wipe was because I'm an FFer with medicine and was spamming single target heals like mad along with all the buffs I've got. So easy to play? Heck no. Looks easy when you know what you're doing? Heck yes. Deserves a nerf because of skilled players knowing how the AT works? Heck no.
I've seen a few (not many) MMs with absolutely no control and they die. A lot.
I have to agree strongly with LostNinja here, Sitting back and doing nothing is a complete misinterpretation of the AT.
The reason it describes Masterminds as difficult in the creation description is because of the control you need to excert over minions to make them effective.
If I were to just leave my ninja on aggressive and press attack my target when I saw a mob then stay well back out of the way and watch, I would be still under lvl 10 and failing missins on villainous.
In a given fight I am excerting constant control over minion placement, reaquiring targets and ensuring they go into melee. This is inconjunction with keeping them healed and debuffing anochor mobs which I try to keep alive while we clear spawns. Add to this the fact that I'm made of tissue paper and in constant danger whilst in the midst of this chaos.
The Mastermind is certainly NOT an autopilot AT.
The other day, I had alot of fun with my SG members. 4 MM's a Corrupter and a Dominator on a rampage trough CT land!
ALOT of tactics was involved, and loos of control of a pet could mean sudden death! Stalking around corners, pulling mobs to the pets, carefully choosing locations to ambush mobs and so forth.
Planing is a big part of the MM's AT and takes alot of skill to master, but one of the main things is to know when to flee!
I did some testing (in the loosest sense of the word) with my Merc/Traps MM and the second tier summon Spec-Ops, upgraded with the first upgrade power.
I found that it could quiet happily kill 2 even level minions beyond my "Supremacy" (or what ever its called) range. Now considering this "pet" is in effect a one click power thats about as close to risk free xp farming as you can get. Couple that with a reasonable travel power you're laughing!
When seeking fast xp why would you kill even level minions? I wouldn't exactly call that xp farming. In order to get white minions I'd need to set the difficulty level to the lowest possible and that doesn't spawn enough mobs to make taking a mission worthwhile in the first place.
Maybe the ranged damage of the mercs is more suited to this though. Zombies and Skellingtons tend to pile on in there and get cut to piece for the cause .
What I'm suggesting is that once you can get enough pets out mobs can be taken out with zero risk. Who said anything about doing missions? Once they introduce a couple of Hazard Zones to CoV MM's will become the new mob-killing, speed-levelling monsters Fire blasters used to be.
I have to disagree here, well at least with my build which is robots-based. 1 AoE from some boss conning red (maybe orange too?) will almost instawipe my minions (leaving maybe my assault bot) and if my minions are gone you can bet your last cent that I'm not far behind in "ooohhhhh, nice gravel"-mode. A team of MMs on the other hand - yeah, that'll work, cause the dam-output from so many different targets will wipe a group of mbs before they get the chance to retaliate. But so will other ATs with AoE-capability.... Point is - any good/skilled player will look like a xp-herding-machine almost regardless of AT (and no, I am _not_ including pure healers/single targetters only in this category).
When your talking about taking on a couple of even to +1 level mobs to be fair, there is no risk for more or less any archetype, you just run if it gets hairy and most players know when thats the case.
When you send your pets off to kill and your way back not even in supremecy range...well most other AT's can kill those mobs in the same time frame anyway.
And besides, if even one of your pets dies, it doesnt reduce the casting cost of the summon. If 2 die or maybe all your tier one and a single tier 2...your burning practically a whole bar of end just to bring em back for the next group of even level mobs.
I'm lvl 30, I haven't solo'd at this level range at all but Im guessing that my mobs couldnt do it on their own, but I will test it out for you as soon as the pacth is done.
Ok, I managed to get a few tests in before patch.
Each attack was a full compliment of minions so 3 genin, 2 jounin and 1 oni sent at range to attack the mob. I'm lvl 30.
First lot were Longbow.
28 Lieutenant Nullifier.
no deaths, 40 seconds to kill.
29 Lieutenant Nullifier
2 Genin Dead, 1 jounin dead, 1.20 seconds to kill
29 Warden Boss
All Minions Dead at 2.45 seconds, Warden on low health but a winner.
Server Just went down so couldn't do much more.
Lets say it takes me 1.30 seconds to recover from casting summon Jounin and Summon Genin and then training them to be ready to move on. 3 Mins to kill a single lieutenant 1 level below me is not a good ratio.
Now of course were I in there assisting it would all change as I would be healing. But I think sending your minions at long distance in 'virtual safety' is not an effective way to play. I will run some better tests when I get back on and there is more than 5 mins to jump about looking for mobs to fight.
The pets tend to go down fast if you don't stand close to them and direct their actions, as well as heal/buff them. Treating them as an extension of your squishy self, not as a replacement, works quite well for me at least- But I must confess both my MM's are ranged.
Some suspect melee type pets go down faster than ranged ones, this must be investigated. Perhaps close combat pets actually should be made more resistant? Oh heresy! Nerf the ranged ones! 
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I would prefer improving the melee ones the reasons being:
1. Being in melee (or near it) involves more risk than ranged combat.
2. Melee attacks do more damage.
3. A brute is no Tank and a Stalker is no Scrapper! Villains are no way near as effective in managing aggro or in melee combat as Heroes and a MM pet's should be able to pick up the slack.
4. IMHO there is far to much empahsis on ranged combat now in CoH and CoV which has been detrimental to the melee based alts.
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I would prefer improving the melee ones the reasons being:
1. Being in melee (or near it) involves more risk than ranged combat.
2. Melee attacks do more damage.
3. A brute is no Tank and a Stalker is no Scrapper! Villains are no way near as effective in managing aggro or in melee combat as Heroes and a MM pet's should be able to pick up the slack.
4. IMHO there is far to much empahsis on ranged combat now in CoH and CoV which has been detrimental to the melee based alts.
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Zombies are fine anyway. Sure they might pick up a little extra aggro and drop quicker but you can always bring em back. I've had no problems with them and certainly don't think the suffer more than ranged pets.
Don't really think they need a boost at all.
Ineed, perhaps it is the ranged based MM builds that are giving the impression of easy PvE. Forming a battle line and hosing down groups is very cool. Maybe the way that feels to some people gives the impression of ease.
I also feel that we have become so twisted and mistrustful in online communities that aside of the petty and idiotic trolls making ill thought comments and posts any time something is fun or successfull we become convinced that it will be taken from us.
I suspect this comes from early door games like EQ which relied heavily on time sink, bragging rights and aquiring status based equipment. I do not think that CoV is like that.
There is also no point looking at the way CoH works in PvE to how CoH works as they are.....distinct games purchasable and playable standalone. The only intersection being PvP and we all know how Masterminds are faring in that arena 
This has been a fairly good thread, good natured and for the most part intelligent. Lets try to just enjoy the game and if they change something try to have some trust that they are doing the right thing. Games have come a long way since EQ and its sometimes game sweeping changes.
But then personally I think playing the game as though your a mathematical actuary is faintly retarded and the Enhancement Diversification is one of their best moves.
I agree with the thrust of your post. MM's (and to a lesser extent Stalkers and Dominators) need to be acknowledged as being substantive moves forward for both CoH and CoV. MM's in particular have been a really positive step forward when so much of the "new" content in CoV is really a rehash of the old.
I do also believe that the nerfing process will inevitably affect all of the new AT's to varying degrees. Cryptic seem determined to have players characters in an almost constant state of flux. Irrespective of what I or others post.
One of the reasons I beleive this will happen is because of the low risk of MM's actually dying while levelling. My example of Fire Blasters of old is a good one. Players by their nature will exploit an AT to level as quickly as they can. Unfortunately the MM is more open to abuse than other alts.
Reading Statemans comments on travel powers being exploited in hit and run tactics in todays post should be sobering reading for MM's. A reasonable MM with TP should be pretty much impervious in PvE particularly while street hunting.
A possible reason for my bitterness may be because I really, really like melee based characters but have become embittered racing into mortal danger time afer time as my "team-mates" hang back, garnering their pets more than other players, summoning, buffing, shooting and running away as I faceplant because I can no longer have more than three resists in RPD or only three health enhancers in my regen powers. Then, I get Defenders agonising about if they want to heal me or not because they consider themselves "Offenders".
Soz. Bit of a rant but I feel better now.
I cant find any reference from statesman about hit and run Animal...can you link please ?
I think people need to realise while MM's are very easy to LvL 1-15'ish Their DPS start to be real low after that at least for the 2 MM's i played so far to lvl 26 (Merc/Dark & Bot/FF).
Sure i can solo missions on a very hard setup, however i cannot solo Super Heroes, i still haven't done the mission in SharkHead isle where you have to kill the Sea Witch. On a side note, i couldn't solo the lvl 20 mission for your super villains cloak. And i believe its good that way, grouping with other players is very fun.
MM's need a nerf? Definitly not, i've teamed up with brutes and my jaws droped at how fast they were killing stuff, bosses inclued. Granted they have to build Fury first but once thats done, they smash everything in their way
I know Brutes of my lvl who can solo the same missions as me on the same difficulty setup and faster at that..
That said, i always played Pet class in mmorpg. To date, my favorite pet class was the Warlock in WoW but since i tryed the Master Mind here in CoV i'm having a blast You have to do a lot of micro-managing if you want to be successful. With all the different secondary power sets this gives you a lot of options to have fun.
I wouldn't say my Robot's are that tough, Dread is lvl 7 at the moment and an even level Slammer can give one of the bots a good hiding.
That's with 2 bot's and myself firing at the Slammer.
Hell, my Corrupter got to level 8 quicker than Dread got to 7 and she solo'd the entire way, Dread has his bot's to help.
So much for MM's being over-powered if my Corrupter beats him out flat, mind you, she has AoE attacks, maybe NC should nerf her and just give her matchsticks to play with?
My Stalker can deal lovely damage yet is just sooo slow to level due to the AS/run till everyone gives up, repeat til mission complete tactic.
If 'Hidden' meant people couldn't see you after an attack instead of only Hidden once they'd got bored of chasing you, Stalkers would level faster and some then would no doubt say .. nerf stalkers (well, some have said it already I think).