Jack_Bones

I'm using Nin/Nin and don't have stamina. I couldn't resist all the tricksie powers on Ninjitsu so couldn't afford to buy it as I wanted flight.

I slapped 1 end reducer into Danger sense and Reflexes very early on and then when I got into late 20's I put one in each of my main attacks (golden dragonfly, Soaring Dragon, Assassin).

To be honest, I've barely noticed not having stamina. Judicious use of toggling my melee and aoe defences on and off while Im running about etc and Im usually plenty ok for end.

I solo on relentless easily, though I do tend to pick my opponents as I find the circle and freakshow too resistant to lethal. Carnival and the Council are my [censored].

I use smokebomb all the time to AS and run away if I need to thin groups out. Even if it misses some it usually strings larger groups out and I use normal placate to kill boss guards then placate the boss to retreat then ghost back in again once I've recovered from whatever alpha's they use (Mask of vitiation(sp) is a [censored]).

I find I'm not using caltrops as much as I used to as originally I played an air superiority/caltrops damage game but now Im higher level the damage even slotted is more negligible. But I still use air super to drop hovering foes and in conjunction with soaring dragon to keep enemies juggled.

Blnding powder is brill but on relentless I tend to get small groups of high level mobs rather than big groups but I know it comes into its own when i do use it.

All in all I love nin/nin and its flexibility and have had no need for stam on this toon at all.

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Hi, can you explain a little more why you will respec out Teleport Group ?

I'm probably playing my ninjas like yours, running right behind them, with the Leadership powers on without Stamina (thanks to 2 EndRdx in each).
I chose Superleap as my travel power because I always had a lot of fun with it. But I also took Teleport Foe to deal with those nasty AE mobs.
I was thinking about respecing out the 2 Superleap powers to complete the Teleport pool with Teleport and Teleport group, but now I wonder...

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I did basically the same, taking superleap to be stylistically like the Ninja which all get superleap, but they dont use it to travel, which would have looked [censored] awesome, straight out of a movie with all the ninja jumping over rooftops. So I respecced and took group teleport so I could carry my Ninja army with me. BUT

I'm fairly sure it's bugged..well, I know it is..When you teleport about 80% of the time your Ninja will drop out of the air like rocks as soon as you appear not getting the few seconds of hover needed to complete the next port. So they end up following you on foot. That problem combined with the prohibitive endurance cost of teleport made it unusable...Even slotted up pretty well you can't cross a zone with it and of course as soon as you arrive at the mission your out of endurance and have to rest up to even begin summoning your henchmen, and then wait again to train em....the whole process extends itself way beyond worth. At least with superleap I arrived on full end to begin summoning.

Perhaps in conjunction with normal teleport for zone crossing, might be worth it, but you have to slot that up a lot to make it worth it too. I just felt it was a mistake on my part.

Yeah, I wouldn't mess about with the medicine pool. Just work on your placement for using grasp well. The hitting is rarely a problem once you get some SO...its the aura range that will fox you. Its just a fact that you will tend to lose the odd genin, but thats no biggie, so dont worry.

My main tactic is to use goto and then I follow in and do the heal. I have no problems with agro or going into melee range at all and of course your setting up for a 250+ AE heal, so even if you get hit, your healing it a second later.

As for the AE mobs, yup, there a bastich, no two ways about it. Especially the demolitionists and the longbow special ops and Nullifiers. I took to offing those instantly out of preference to minimise AE damage. Or certainly with the special ops, teleport foe on them to kill them before I rush the main group.

As for leadership...Well its one of those sets that is obviously useful as its a 'whole team thing' so for a MM its an attractive powerset. My Ninja have an excellent survivability and damage output and I put that down to the fact that I run well slotted tactics, manouvers, assault and shadowfall. Which is also doubled up by my main grouping partner doing the same. That being said, you do have to compromise on powers to buy that many pools. I personally need to respec as I took teleport group which has not worked out like I wanted at all and I think I need Stamina to be honest as I do run a lot of toggles to assist my ninja whilst I command them.

Smoke bomb is an amazing power and really comes into its own when you get the Oni.

Smokebomb, pet goto <edge of group of mobs>, pets attack.

Oni will unleash a Crit firebreath...truly a thing of beauty.

However i do believe stealth pool stacks with Shadowfall...oh hang on, that might be stacks with stalker hide...bah i've undermined my own confidence in that one....someone else better answer it.

Well, I dinged 22 and the siphon speed on the power selection screen does indeed state that it decreases your enemies speed and attack rate whilst boosting your own. So it's just a discrepency between the power selection description and the mouse over power description from the powers bar.

Still, it clears it up and I can now take it (which I did) with confidence. Im hoping that once I deck out hasten with 3 SO attack rates and an acc and attack rate in siphon that it will let me keep hasten up a lot longer.

Don't you just hate it when a powers description is ambiguous....but the benefits do seem to be potentially overwhelming.

When I pop my hasten i can pour damnation on groups of enemies by quick fire of tentacles and Nightfall. So keeping that kind of recharge up is a priority for me. Im about to hit 22 so will probably choose a kinetics power as I have my travel and stamina which is all I really wanted from the sub pools. Everything now is just gravy.

Whats peoples experience of Torrent ? I have to say I do love my cones...can this be used to push groups over, then follow up with more tentacles and nightfall while they are recovering and then repeat ?

You sure Max ? I logged on to check the description and siphon speed only says - foe spd, you + spd.....Speed Boost states a +recharge though.....Im leary of taking it without knowing as I dont need the speed component itself.

Doesnt say that Siphon speed gives a +recharge, so no I haven't taken it on that basis.

Assault 'should' give me around 10% damage increase just off the bat though ? ....without having to stack siphon powers etc. I dont want to look at my damage output as a massive strings and mirrors setup..I wanna pump a siphon power and off I go with a well enhanced damage output by having good slottage on my damage, enhanced recharge with hasten and siphon power and assault handing out damage boosts with the possibility of damage inspirations too.

Yup, hitting the 20's with mine now. Still enjoying it very much. A couple of things I've noticed.

I struggle like crazy against CoT...they just have too good a def and also resistance to neg attacks. Avoid majorly if your solo'ing.

Siphon and Transfusion seem to have low accuracy rates....at least thats how it feels to stuff like twilight grasp, so slot em up for acc as its a real pain when it missses which they do ALOT

Snipe I use all the time, unless Im trying to solo pull with siphon power its my main opener and with a little timing you can get them off mid-fight too.

My slotting so far has been damage orientated and with hasten I can really chuck it out. So I've taken stamina to try help compensate.

I'm ignoring some of the of the kinetics, speed boost, inertial reduc as I took hurdle and superspeed but speed boost will be my next choice at 22. I'm also thinking about assault to keep pumping that damage higher.

One thing I've noticed is that unless I want to waste a cone attack on a single target I am missing an attack out in the dark blast/gloom cycle...theres room for another in there. I'm going to take life drain and hope that it fills it in.

Its the damage on the caltrops that unhides you, not dropping the caltrops themselves. So you can drop them to block a door, move in, AS and then retreat into your caltrops but you can't drop them on a group and then expect to AS, which as a previous person said makes them all turn and shoot you.

I'm also alting one of these.....heres what I think.

Dark Blast is very viable as you dont actually get a straight up direct damage attack other than this. Im lvl 18 and basically slotted do about 30ish with it which of course is 60ish scourged. I mainly use it to finish mobs that are very low on health rather than an expensive cone which is what Dark Attacks gets.

Gloom seems to be the partner in crime of Dark Blast, I cant even be bothered to tot up the damage on them both but its the other basic attack so well worth it.

Moonbeam...great damage but problematical to pull off in combat, possible but problematical....plus Im always tempted to blast a siphon power first to maximise damage but then I face the problem of not being interupted. Easier against some mobs thans others to pull off mid fight.

Tenebrous Tentacles...fantastic, reasonable damage and a must for not getting melee'd to death by slammers/tanks/swordsman etc etc etc.

Nightfall....I find it amazing in conjunction with Tentacles...ok damage, better when scourging...I like the numbers....

Dark Pit...I only recall this from my defender which I aint played since like I3...but its a disorient AE, I have one on my Super Strength Brute...its good if used right. Its NOT a [censored] power.

Torrent...havent used this in a LONG time so I wont comment.

In Kinetics Im only using Transfusion and Siphon Power as I play almost exclusively with my housemate and he doesnt need some of the other buffs, so Im ignoring them. Siphon power seems to be a fat [censored] damage buff but has fairly [censored] accuracy depsite being DO'd twice and transfusion is off as it PBAOE's off the mob not you, which as I have played with twilight grasp for the most part is a head maze.

All in all, I find this combination powerful..I solo fine and combi'd with a brute, amazing. We run a trick where we play to each others strengths...so he leaves mobs on low health and targets others and I mop up with Scourge around him...this basically increases his fury by leaving low health mobs still hitting him and increases my damage output by scourging which saves us both end as we make the least number of attacks to finish mobs. Seems to be a fine tactic so far.

Fearsome stare is indeed excellent. The recharge does mean you tend to only use it once in a fight but I find it invaluable for freezing a group to position my Oni for massive cone damage or just to hold a group down while I work through them. Also its the schnizz for freezing an ambush in place as your escorting a kidnap victim.

Shadowfall is of course also excellent, it reduces over agro with the stealth component, adds resists (larger)and defence (lesser).

Question is, is it worth it which your particular minions. For Ninja, its a gem, they are defence based so any additional is just making them better and of course that means that the resists are also excellent as they dont get them any other way. Robots are resist heavier if I recall and the smaller ammount of defence prolly wont make too much of a difference. Still, the mastermind himself also benefits from the resists and defence.

I would go shadowfall first and then fearsome stare when you get closer to opening your AE capability.

The Respec Trial ! Da Da !

So I was about to hit 34 and I thought, damn I need to do the respec trial. I read up about it and off the US boards all I see if this

'OMG 20 hours and we still failed' kinda stuff.

But I read a guide, figure out where the start guy is and get a few buddies together. Result ?

Whole thing done in less than an hour, no deaths. Admitedly we 'cheesed' the last mish by spawning only 24 vines. But anyway I got my respec.

As my previous posts have noted I run all the leadership powers and shadowfall so dont have much endurance to play with after I smokeflash and heal and darkest night. So i respec'd Aimed Shot and Fistfull of arrows out. I dropped super jump and took teleport friend, teleport foe and TEAM teleport. Picked up Tar Patch and Petryfying gaze.

Ok, Team Teleport first.

Its an end hog, I've had to slot it up with 4 SO's 3 end reducers and 1 range, its not doing too bad now. BUT ! and heres the stinker I obviously took it to teleport pets around and hopefully in PvP land on a target with a full group of mobs. It doesnt work right with pets. You teleport into the air as usual with the group around you and they immediately fall out of the sky whilst you hover and initiate your next teleport. Thus you end up with them chasing you like they would with normal teleport. I've bugged it...but Im mad that I took it and it doesn't do what it should.

Tar Patch, lovely power, what can you say its standard fayre for most darks I only didnt take it first time round because of my dominator bud having a thorn version.

Petrifying Gaze, A great power and if your in a duo with another person with a hold its fantastic. We now open bad boss fights with a double hold which pins the boss instantly. Also good for hitting those pesky nullifiers or spec'ops that will stand at the back and AE your chaps to death.

Teleport Foe...I initially thought I wasn't gonna use this much as I pull spawns with fearsome stare and then AE them but I'm finding that more and more I can thin down the wanderers around a group that would normally evade our initial crowd controls. So yeah its usefull.

Oh a word of warning when you hit 34. Most of you will know this but you don't get a new power ! just slots. next power is at 35.

So i'm now heading to 35 with only a couple of powers left to choose and wondering if I did the right thing with teleport. I'll post more experiences as I change in any significant way.

Your right. I find myself in a constant state of keypad clicking, but then I use passive stance so I need to keep reapplying targets. I find its the best way (despite momentary downtimes) to ensure your pet does what you need.

For a while when I had like only about 4 pets I used to split attack a lot sending genin on one target and jounin on another. Now Im full petted I find that I focus all the time on one. Im trying to break the cycle somewhat as its a waste of my Oni's control powers.

Though I find that when I set pets on different targets by the time Ive got my 3rd pet on the go the first has killed its target and then this runaway train keypad press beings. At least all. passive...attack X repeat and rinse is consistent.

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If you can work in an extra mouse click, Jack, try using Go-To... it seems to instantly override the existing commands, so you can haul back that genin who's on the track team and stop him from playing "tag" with the target.


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I'll give that a shot, I had dismissed it previously as probably not being plausible. Thanks.

Your right, the ability to create a keymapping for pet control should be in the keymapping section of options. BUT

for all those who haven't got round to setting it up yet, its VERY VERY easy. All you do is copy and paste 5 different bind commands into your chat bar and then do a bind_save. All the leg work has been done for you. You dont have to input a 80 character long bind command with the keyboard...capy and paste is your friend.

One thing I've noticed with the pets and especially since I started using the key tapping to force ranged. This is in a fully lag free mission too. The pets seem to go through stages of commands before acting on new orders...so for example.

I can hit 'attack my target' while im at range and all my pets will fire except one who will run at the mob. Now even though I pretty much instantly hit follow he will almost always get all the way up to the mob before turning back. Its like the whole sequence is broken into sections for him and he doesnt heed the 'follow me' part until hes completed the section hes on which is 'get to the mob'. Gods knows if its just a coding thing.

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Personally I can make my Ninja do what the hell I want, including stay solely at range and fire bows for the entire combat.

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I only know how to get them to melee, which is to set them to scout in the center of the mob and not use attack command. I'd REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY like to know how you keep them ranged, I could use it right about now.



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Making Ninja stay at range is a button tapping trick. I found it really easy when I only had 2 genin and 1 jounin. now I have the full compliment its a little tougher and usually results in one running forward then running back.

You need the advanced pet binds to do this. Order all pets to passive stance. Move to long range so the henchmen will utilise their snap shot/aimed shots/poison dart and then hit..attack my target....followed by...follow me. This results in them firing arrows (which they always do if you order attack while at long range) and the immediately going back to a passive stance. If you do this in a kind of rhythm you will find they do nothing but stand and fire.

To make them stand and solely fire arrows takes a bit of rhythm but you will find it if you try, what sometimes happens is one will run forward a bit and then run back, and the rest all pepper your target. Its harder with ALL pets. Try it.

I can answer your question about Ninja but not the drone.

Using the normal training upgrade the Oni gets Circle of Fire which is an immobilse when you get the lvl 32 enlighten he gets Char which is a hold.

You can get the Oni to open with a cone of fire with 99% efficiency by using range. Whatever range hes at when you hit the attack my target button bases what he does. So if hes medium to close he will always use cone of fire if its available. Further away he tends to blast or immobilise.

Forfcefields is a potent secondary. The skills within it like all the secondaries require learning, timing and situation.

I'm sure there is a FF guy on here that can highlight some of the specific uses of the powers. But I will state right now that its not rubbish.

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there are few powers that you really dont need, like web granade or healing beacon, but rest of them are pretty good.

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Now I see a lot of people derive a power or say that you don't need it and I personally think that each power can have a place and be useful. My duo partner follows the Dominator forums and the ammount of times he sees people say that this or that power is useless and yet its one we use heavily is amazing.

We grenade is like entangling arrow if Im correct which I thought was absolutely bloody amazing. I could just hold a mob at range and let my ninja henchmen shoot it up and with robots or merc thats even easier as they STAY at range. I would use the arrow to pull a group by pinning one round a corner or door way or behind an object to limit their ability to join the combat and then just reapply soon as it repopped (whch entangling arrow does fast). Point being I found loads of applications where I thought it was well useful.

Triage Beacon, my duo partner took spirit tree and initially we thought it was not too usefull. It was great for speeding up downtime after fight, he slotted it up with 3 SO heals and now its excellent ! there is a real noticeable [censored] in health when it zings you. I find it has saved us many times in large fights just by virtue of its duration.

I really think those two powers and their counterparts from other sets are useful powers and very valid to take.

Thanks for that Mindless. Sounds like you use a very diverse playing method by focusing on your own attacks and little control.

I would say some MM primaries would work better with this, Mercs and Bots I suppose due to their ranged nature. I personally am sat over the control buttons 24/7 with my ninja and I can keep em alive for multiple missions in a row.

The things I find are fatal to my henchmen aside of bad pulls or ambushes etc is Longbow Nullifiers and Spec Ops when they use grenade launcher, it doesnt kill em outright but ift forces me to try group my pets to heal em, which if one is slightly out of range of (frequently) and they get chance for another volley, then I tend to lose a single genin. Tank Smashers can one shot em too, so until their debuffed I usually lose at least one. AV's of course and boss encounters can often cause one to die, again usually an AE that I then dont manage to get the heal grouping right on.

I've currently got Aimed Shot and Fistfull of Arrows speceed. I DO use them though not as much as I did pre 20 and 2 SO damage and 1 Acc give them reasonable damage in my mind, when my oni does his fire breath I often follow it a arrow cone so my initial burst can be very heavy.

When I respec I have no idea if I will keep them.

If you expand the buff visuals on your pet bar so you can see what buff icons your pets currently have you are able to right click and info to get your basic pet info...which tells you what your pet comes with as standard its resistances etc. You will also see an icon for the first training upgrade...which tells you what attacks and effects it adds to that tier henchmen and also your final henchie upgrade lists as enlightenment which again shows what attacks are added.

If i recall though basic soliders get a second type of bullet fire, so you may not notice, my genin get a bow so its fairly obvious when they use it in preference to shuriken and also a spining jump kick.

The only reason that the talk has all been about Ninja and Robots is because, Im giving my experiences as a Ninja mastermind and the other people who have chosen to respond are mainly Robot masterminds. My intention for this thread was for everyone whos playing a MM archetype could post their own experiences and agree/disagree or just pick up a new bit of info on what they might be able to expect to do when they get a particular power/upgrade.

Although Im very much looking forward to the new MM primaries, Thugs and Carnival sound excellent. Big cheers to cryptic.

Personally I could never be bothered to bean count enough to figure out which might be more damaging than others.

I can say say with certainty that I can anihilate a whole spawn of mixed orange and yellow on ruthless with my opening gambit with the Oni's critical'd fire breath.

my SG has two zombie guys that play alongside me in missions sometimes, to be honest I find I lose less genin than they do, that may be because they are slightly lower level than me, play less well or simply just let their tier one pets die to use soul extraction.

I would summise that the primaries in the right hands with people whos play style fits them probably function within a very narrow band of capability.

So I hit 32, obviously took Kuji In Rin. Well, the reharge is quite long on it but if you use it as quick as you can by the time you've summoned all your minions and used basic training on them you have got your Oni and usually the two Jounin Enlightened. I have taken to training the Genin on the fly as they are at risk of getting dead more than my other Henchmen anyway. So over all its not really slowing me down much.

The powers for the Oni are very nice. I thought the rain of fire would be detrimental but I'm not finding it so, in fact as hencmen effects are linked to the mob they are cast on staying alive I find that I have to shift targets as soon as he casts rain to get some mileage out of it. The char seems to be a nice upgrade on fireblast too.

The Jounin just kick [censored] now. They not only look great in their Ninja Armour but the additional attack does sweet damage. They also apparently gained Blinding Powder and Hide, but Im not seeing them use it at all at the moment I dont know if its bugged or I'm just missing it. I will have to test.

The Genin, its a nice upgrade too. They get superleap which allows them to follow the Jounin when stuff flies away and as they are the most aggressive they stop runners quicker now. The additional Kick is excellent. Plus they now look like real Ninja ! with their cool facemasks and little bag.

All in all, a very nice upgrade. Even when I lose a Genin, Kuji is usually ready to just cast instantly and losing one henchmen tends to be the normal fayre of a mission. I dont wipe lots of minions that often so the recharge isnt that much of an issue.

I cant find any reference from statesman about hit and run Animal...can you link please ?