[ QUOTE ]
You'll need everything you can get and then some. Every armour optimally 3 slotted and Tough from the fighting pool in my case. This should roughly give you 26% defence to S/L/E/N/Psi
[/ QUOTE ]
If 26% DEF is "everything you need" then apparently you're playing a different game to the rest of us - what's your secret?
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
My Characters
CoX Chatlog Parser
Last.fm Feed
Oh it's nowhere near enough, it just takes some of the edge off. Guess we stone tanks have the advantage of 200% extra regen from rooted which is a big help (tho not as nice as the 300% we used to have). But even with that I need to be hitting Fault, Tremor and encasing people in stone constantly.
I did pop to the car park in PI when testing my new build and went against 3 LTs, a death mage and a possesed scientist - all level 50. I just stood there. Before I5 and ED, I would barely have noticed them. Took about 30 seconds or less to drop me to the red this time.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh it's nowhere near enough, it just takes some of the edge off. Guess we stone tanks have the advantage of 200% extra regen from rooted which is a big help (tho not as nice as the 300% we used to have). But even with that I need to be hitting Fault, Tremor and encasing people in stone constantly.
I did pop to the car park in PI when testing my new build and went against 3 LTs, a death mage and a possesed scientist - all level 50. I just stood there. Before I5 and ED, I would barely have noticed them. Took about 30 seconds or less to drop me to the red this time.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is the thing. In lots of ways I'd rather have kept the non-GA armours (although I'd always planned Tundra to be a GA tank), but a bit of testing showed that just about anything I could handle out of GA I could also handle without using my other armours - and anything my Regen + EE couldn't cope with the armours weren't sufficient for. It's a great shame, but did free up some power choices for other things. I've kept Minerals, but to be honest that's as much for sentimental reasons as anything else since it's not enough for Psi-AV tanking anymore and there's precious little reason to use it otherwise.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
[ QUOTE ]
I've kept Minerals, but to be honest that's as much for sentimental reasons as anything else since it's not enough for Psi-AV tanking anymore and there's precious little reason to use it otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just dumb then. What's the point of a Psi defence power if it isn't good enough to help against AV's.
I enjoyed my attempts to tank the Psi clockwork king, however I did stock up on Luck inspirations and pop them like candy, relying on Dull Pain and a healer to keep me alive. However I was under the impression that a stone tank or DA scrapper didn't have to got to the extreme lengths I did to do it.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
[ QUOTE ]
That's just dumb then. What's the point of a Psi defence power if it isn't good enough to help against AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well it was fairly limited even before when it had 55% defence, especially if the clockwork king was about +2. I fondly remember my first go against him. It was me and an Inv tank. The team got ready, we braced ourselves, ran in... and he one shotted us both. Team wipe 8 seconds later. Should have used EE first. 
My tactics got better after that. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's just dumb then. What's the point of a Psi defence power if it isn't good enough to help against AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well it was fairly limited even before when it had 55% defence, especially if the clockwork king was about +2. I fondly remember my first go against him. It was me and an Inv tank. The team got ready, we braced ourselves, ran in... and he one shotted us both. Team wipe 8 seconds later. Should have used EE first.
My tactics got better after that.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think I was there with my blaster, hovering upon high with PFF on, laughing my [censored] off :P
If not, I've also seen 2 tanks 1-shotted by the psi clock king.
I use to run EE/Rooted/Rock Armor quite a bit before ED. As you said with Fault and Tremor you can keep them flipping quite nicely.
However some villians just don't flip over nicely, like good boys and girls. Plus I would sometimes find myself eating dirt so quickly I didn't even get a chance to think what the hell was that.
After ED I think Rooted which is really the key to it working is just too low.
Of course you haven't got any choice pre-granite.
[ QUOTE ]
I use to run EE/Rooted/Rock Armor quite a bit before ED. As you said with Fault and Tremor you can keep them flipping quite nicely.
[/ QUOTE ]
I always forget to mention it when talking about armour-less soloing, but of course I have Ice Patch available so keeping enemies on their backs is a large part of my defensive strategy too.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've kept Minerals, but to be honest that's as much for sentimental reasons as anything else since it's not enough for Psi-AV tanking anymore and there's precious little reason to use it otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just dumb then. What's the point of a Psi defence power if it isn't good enough to help against AV's.
I enjoyed my attempts to tank the Psi clockwork king, however I did stock up on Luck inspirations and pop them like candy, relying on Dull Pain and a healer to keep me alive. However I was under the impression that a stone tank or DA scrapper didn't have to got to the extreme lengths I did to do it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or a controller with Indomitable Will and Mind Over Body! I enjoyed that (in I5 at least, I doubt I could do it now...)
I'll be doing something fairly similar to this in principle if not practice, I know that granite is the ultimate stoney thing but I shall only be taking it for GMs and AVs or as a panic button when mobbing. I've a lot of concepts to the character I have and turning into a granite thing isn't really one of them. Will have to wait and see how it all pans out but I think that I should be ok with the build I am planning. I just want to get to level 13 soon!!!
[ QUOTE ]
01 : Stone Fist acc(01) dam(3) dam(3) dam(5) recred(5) recred(7)
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't wanna sound noobish but what do the numbers mean are they what level you put on the inspiration slots??
It is the lvl you add those extra slots. The 2 (3)'s means at lvl3 he adds the 2 available slots into that power. The 2 (5)'s are added when he got to lvl5.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
[ QUOTE ]
02 : Stone Skin damres(02) damres(9) damres(11)
[/ QUOTE ]
Well how does this work you dont get slots at lvl 2?? What does the 2 stand for? 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
02 : Stone Skin damres(02) damres(9) damres(11)
[/ QUOTE ]
Well how does this work you dont get slots at lvl 2?? What does the 2 stand for?
[/ QUOTE ]
You'll notice that it's the same level as the power was picked at. That's the default empty slot that arrives with each power.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
Oh god I am so stupid 
cheers for that mate and great guide btw thankyou! Off to play my stone / stone tanker
[ QUOTE ]
I still use GA when things get tough (and for AVs, learnt the hard way never to try them without it)
[/ QUOTE ]
I think maybe your talking in terms of +2+ AVs. Our team had our pre granite stone tanker mate doing +1 lvl AV's (set to even to mission owner (me) cos the tank was new to AV's) he was sk'd up and he done fine, its a team thing though. Saying that if its there, use it! its alot easier, i use elude on my sr simply cos its there.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I still use GA when things get tough (and for AVs, learnt the hard way never to try them without it)
[/ QUOTE ]
I think maybe your talking in terms of +2+ AVs. Our team had our pre granite stone tanker mate doing +1 lvl AV's (set to even to mission owner (me) cos the tank was new to AV's) he was sk'd up and he done fine, its a team thing though. Saying that if its there, use it! its alot easier, i use elude on my sr simply cos its there.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was me 
Thanks Shannon, it was a team effort.
Glad too hear I am going a good job so far, and I must admit i was pooing my pants tanking the AV's for the first time.
Not long left until I do get granite ( 3 bars!!! )
Wrote that originally just after ED so hadn't done much testing. Since had some time to try certain AV's without Granite and there are a few which are totally possible even at +2 or more. Really depends on the AV though. Those that use S/L dmg (and to some extent fire) are about the only ones you should try and even then some hit you far too hard for you to be able to take the punishment for too long without insps or lots of team buffing.
Out of curiousity I just went on and tried a lvl 51 Dreck (solo). He had me in the red in under 20 seconds - combination of heavy S/L (900 even with 40% dmg resist) and energy (about 1100 a shot).
Usually it's not worth the risk for me unless it's someone like Diabolique who hits like a girl and where I need stone cages recharging quickly to keep her still!
Ok thanks for that guide got a lvl 10 stone / stone tanker now (Close Call.) and he is doiong very well. Rooted has come in handy and would very much recomend getting this power I believe that I will go down the non-Granite
path as I wish to have a challenge and also have defense and resistence to everything! 
[ QUOTE ]
Wrote that originally just after ED so hadn't done much testing. Since had some time to try certain AV's without Granite and there are a few which are totally possible even at +2 or more. Really depends on the AV though. Those that use S/L dmg (and to some extent fire) are about the only ones you should try and even then some hit you far too hard for you to be able to take the punishment for too long without insps or lots of team buffing.
Out of curiousity I just went on and tried a lvl 51 Dreck (solo). He had me in the red in under 20 seconds - combination of heavy S/L (900 even with 40% dmg resist) and energy (about 1100 a shot).
Usually it's not worth the risk for me unless it's someone like Diabolique who hits like a girl and where I need stone cages recharging quickly to keep her still!
[/ QUOTE ]
With team coordination, positioning and buffing i dont think there is any AV you cant do upto +2 AV for defender and tanker (+2 AV said to be safe in what i am saying). I have had a lvl 51 babbage tanked by a lvl 49 firetanker (no psi def or res and no extra hp boost) and had no deaths in the team. Most people i find though dont give a monkeys about strategy or if they die and do something i class as pointlessly stupid and mess things up. I myself as an invuln have done +2 psionic AVs many times and they only get me once only if i am on not so cooperative teams (but mostly they dont) or i didnt quite make the range i needed or it was way back when i lacked experience to even check the mob. If i get a "wow that is great tanking" its not my tanking its more to the fact i have a great team. Most important thing for a tanker to know is how to offer people safe positions to attack from, whether people use them though or allow you to acquire good herdpoints is another matter.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Update: Got GA 3 slots on swift and I'm away!!!
I kept Stone skin, rock armour and Minerals.
Have to get to 33 soon so I can 3 slot GA and put it to the test.
[ QUOTE ]
With team coordination, positioning and buffing i dont think there is any AV you cant do upto +2 AV for defender and tanker (+2 AV said to be safe in what i am saying). I have had a lvl 51 babbage tanked by a lvl 49 firetanker (no psi def or res and no extra hp boost) and had no deaths in the team. Most people i find though dont give a monkeys about strategy or if they die and do something i class as pointlessly stupid and mess things up. I myself as an invuln have done +2 psionic AVs many times and they only get me once only if i am on not so cooperative teams (but mostly they dont) or i didnt quite make the range i needed or it was way back when i lacked experience to even check the mob. If i get a "wow that is great tanking" its not my tanking its more to the fact i have a great team. Most important thing for a tanker to know is how to offer people safe positions to attack from, whether people use them though or allow you to acquire good herdpoints is another matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I spend most of my time in PUGs I try never to rely on the team as you never know what the team makeup will be or if they are any good. I knows my limits and any contribution from the team just means I can tank even more than that. That way I know I can happily tank a +3 Mother Mayhem mission if I get an invite, regardless of the team I'm with.
Welcome to the world of being a big rock MrJayton.
[ QUOTE ]
That way I know I can happily tank a +3 Mother Mayhem mission if I get an invite, regardless of the team I'm with.
[/ QUOTE ]
Saying that is like saying you can stand there and take hits of mother mayhem all day, now i know stone tanks with granite are more resistant than all the others and minerals offers psi resistance but i think a somewhat unbalanced team of inexperienced people wont save you.
My only theme is that a tanker requires a team to provide an adequate of team work when facing extremes.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I would see the whole inexperienced team go faceplant faster then he would die though.. specialy when she hits the aoe power with several-ticks of after effect, so far i know a +2 can 1 hit a blaster to the ground.
The easy trick with her, immobilize her and walk back a few feet.. totaly 100% safe.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
I thought maybe I'd write a quick guide about tanking using only normal stone armours and my initial observations on ED. This may help those pre-granite people out there and might also help those tempted to try a more challenging approach to stone tanking.
Please note, I do not mean I don't have Granite armour, just that I prefer not to use it. Why you might ask. Well tanking is not just about staying alive (and staying alive is very easy to do in GA), it's about keeping everyone else alive too and thats harder in granite. I still use GA when things get tough (and for AVs, learnt the hard way never to try them without it)
First up, my current build.
Archetype: Tanker
Primary Powers - Ranged : Stone Armor
Secondary Powers - Support : Stone Melee
01 : Stone Fist acc(01) dam(3) dam(3) dam(5) recred(5) recred(7)
01 : Rock Armor defbuf(01) defbuf(7) defbuf(9)
02 : Stone Skin damres(02) damres(9) damres(11)
04 : Earth's Embrace recred(04) recred(11) recred(13) hel(13) hel(15) hel(15)
06 : Mud Pots endred(06) endred(17) tntdur(17) dam(19) dam(19) dam(21)
08 : Rooted hel(08) hel(21) hel(23)
10 : Taunt tntdur(10) tntdur(23) recred(46) recred(46) recred(46)
12 : Swift runspd(12) runspd(25) runspd(25)
14 : Health hel(14) hel(27) hel(27)
16 : Boxing Empty(16)
18 : Tough damres(18) damres(29) damres(29)
20 : Fault acc(20) acc(31) recred(31) recred(31) recred(33) endred(33)
22 : Stamina endrec(22) endrec(33) endrec(34)
24 : Crystal Armor defbuf(24) defbuf(34) defbuf(34)
26 : Recall Friend Empty(26)
28 : Teleport endred(28) rng(36)
30 : Brimstone Armor damres(30) damres(36) damres(36)
32 : Granite Armor damres(32) damres(37) damres(37) defbuf(37) defbuf(39) defbuf(39)
35 : Tremor acc(35) dam(39) dam(40) recred(40) recred(40) endred(42)
38 : Seismic Smash acc(38) dam(42) dam(42) hlddur(43) endred(43) recred(43)
41 : Mineral Armor defbuf(41) defbuf(45) defbuf(45)
44 : Stone Cages acc(44) recred(45) dam(50)
47 : Fossilize acc(47) acc(48) hlddur(48) hlddur(48) hlddur(50) recred(50)
49 : Hover Empty(49)
Defence
You'll need everything you can get and then some. Every armour optimally 3 slotted and Tough from the fighting pool in my case. This should roughly give you 26% defence to S/L/E/N/Psi and 40% resistance to F/C/S/L
Attacks
Or should that be what attacks? With all the effort going into defence you don't have much room for attacks. This build is not one for people that like doing damage. Also not great for when I exemp below level 35.
The Basics
Even with all the armours, rooted, EE, Health etc.. it's often not enough on a large team against big spawns. The trick is to use your other powers to improve your survivability.
With Stone Melee, Fault and Tremor are the two main ones for this. Keep them on their back and they can't hit you! With good timing, you can make sure that 90% of mobs in melee range don't hit you for a good 10 seconds. Fault also stuns.
Seismic smash has a hold affect so is slotted for recharge and hold rather than damage. With my epic hold, I can take 2 minions or one Lt out of a whole fight. It also stacks with seismic smash to allow bosses to be held (and even AVs for short periods).
This is obviously just for stone melee but other secondary powersets should have similar powers you can use to the same affect (tho I believe some may not).
You should also take a selection of Insps - a few purples to boost your defence when needed and a few greens for emergencies. I usually have a break free as well for those occasions I forget to turn Rooted on in time.
Testing
With all the problems recently I've not had much chance to test yet and have only really run two good missions, both against Carnies.
The first was against lvl50s on an eight man team. Holding one spawn was not too much of a chore, the problems came when a second group was aggroed. The two reasons for this were the Dark Ring Mistresses and their Psi attacks and the fact that the second group was not in melee range and I was having to rely purely on my armours for defence. I hit the red a couple of times in those situations but an Insp or two was usually enough to see me through.
Mission two was against lvl 52/53s. The lag made this one tough. Smaller team (6 people) so less bosses which helped and was indoors so didn't often aggro a second group. Surprised how well this one went but it was a good team with scrappers clearing bosses fast and the healers doing a fine job.
Final thoughts
It seems as if it is still entirely possible to tank out of granite. No where near as easy as in I4, but achieveable (at least as far as my testing so far has shown).
ED has helped in some ways as I have a few more slots to play with and it forced me to vary my slotting slightly (something I might never have bothered to try before as it worked fine as it was). On the downside, it has forced me into a strange build. I've had to drop most attacks and several other powers I liked just to muster enough defence to make Faulty playable. He could barely solo before, not a chance now.
I think this is an issue as most people will just go for the perma-granite build instead. Powers like Minerals (a defining power for stone) has become virtually useless. It seems a shame that these changes should make half of the primary powers barely worth taking.
So why do I not go perma-GA? Well I've played this way all the way to 50 and I enjoy the challenge.