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There has to be consequences for failure. HAS TO BE. If I play hockey, they don't call goals back because I don't like being scored on.
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Like debt? LOL.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I don't see the problem. I've not yet seen a character that can't do some damage. ANY character would be able to take back a zone if the Rikti managed to capture it, it would just take a little time.
I mean, once the zone is captured, three objectives are created. Suppose one is a teleport grid. So, you go the grid site and attack it. There would be some guards, but they wouldn't be overwhelming (actually, it might be an idea to have the beam-ins happen only at the defense sites. That way the rikti would continue to defend their conquest).
If that hopeless character that can't do anything without a team is alone in the zone without a team, he's not going to be doing anything, rikti or no rikti. Frankly, I don't buy that any such character exists. Every character I've ever created can handle the raids as they are now, and that's even at L1-5 (though some find it easier than others).
I get the feeling people aren't really considering the idea, and are just stomping their foot down out of obstinance.
[ QUOTE ]
If that hopeless character that can't do anything without a team is alone in the zone without a team, he's not going to be doing anything, rikti or no rikti. Frankly, I don't buy that any such character exists. Every character I've ever created can handle the raids as they are now, and that's even at L1-5 (though some find it easier than others).
I get the feeling people aren't really considering the idea, and are just stomping their foot down out of obstinance.
[/ QUOTE ]
And did these level 1-5 characters that could "handle" the raids actually take on any Rikti by themselves - or were they in a group, most likely with higher level characters? I would really like to see one of them to see how they are doing it, because I certainly can't take down Rikti solo at that level.
Rikti are scaled as a somewhat higher level mob, even in the "levelless" raids. Your average level 1-5 character with at best 4 attacks (if a blaster) isn't going to be able to beat down the lowest level Rikti quickly if at all. Yet that same lowbie can easily take on Hellions solo (a level-appropriate mob).
Perhaps there is some knee-jerk reacting going on here, but it seems that many see your idea as intruding on their fun - which is a valid concern for them to have. It's not obstinance if they just plain don't like it - it's up to you to make it attractive to them (good luck on that BTW).
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
[ QUOTE ]
You know, the more I look at my response to Aett, the more I like it. Here's the amended idea.
Change the initial raid as I described before. The Rikti come in and attack the three targets. If they succeed, the raid moves on to an adjacent zone, and the zone they were just in becomes "conquered."
"Conquered" zones will have three rikti control points for the heroes to attack. Destroying them would return the zone to normal, and the raid would stop.
While conquered, the zone would behave normally, however raid-style Rikti would spawn in the normal spawn points, IN ADDITION TO the regular spawns.
Thus, wherever normal foes are spawning, the Rikti are spawning there too (and likely attacking the regular spawns).
This would allow those doing hunts to do them, though they would risk having to fight a few rikti here and there, and it would allow people that need to talk to contacts the freedom to do so, all while maintaining the sense of being in a warzone.
NOW what do you think? Does that satisfy everyone?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it doesn't. You aren't getting it. Rikti raids are not fun.
They were somewhat amusing the first couple times I did one, but got old real fast. They're lots of time spent for no perceivable reward (I know there's an accolade, but I never use it on any characters that have it). If I'm going to spend my time doing something in this game, it's because either it's fun for me, or there's a reward coming to me that's worth the time I invest.
Rikti raids fulfill neither of those criteria, so the only good thing I can say about them is that they're completely avoidable. If I don't want to participate, I just leave the zone til it's over. There's no chance that it can spread to more zones and disrupt my game any more than it already does. Your idea(s) does nothing to make it more fun, nothing to increase the rewards, and makes it more likely that it will disrupt the rest of my game. So NO! I don't like your idea, and I will not support it or any other idea that has a chance of making the rikti raids any more likely to disrupt my game.
And since you seem to be having trouble with this fact, let me put it real simply for you.
Ultimo_'s idea = more rikti
more rikti = bad
Ultimo_'s idea = bad
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the problem. I've not yet seen a character that can't do some damage. ANY character would be able to take back a zone if the Rikti managed to capture it, it would just take a little time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even that FF/NRG defender you were complaining about ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
You know, the more I look at my response to Aett, the more I like it. Here's the amended idea.
Change the initial raid as I described before. The Rikti come in and attack the three targets. If they succeed, the raid moves on to an adjacent zone, and the zone they were just in becomes "conquered."
"Conquered" zones will have three rikti control points for the heroes to attack. Destroying them would return the zone to normal, and the raid would stop.
While conquered, the zone would behave normally, however raid-style Rikti would spawn in the normal spawn points, IN ADDITION TO the regular spawns.
Thus, wherever normal foes are spawning, the Rikti are spawning there too (and likely attacking the regular spawns).
This would allow those doing hunts to do them, though they would risk having to fight a few rikti here and there, and it would allow people that need to talk to contacts the freedom to do so, all while maintaining the sense of being in a warzone.
NOW what do you think? Does that satisfy everyone?
[/ QUOTE ]
I see this as Skyway City Supatrolls all over again. What starts as an amusing diversion quickly becomes something that's old hat that simultaneously causes inconvenience for everyone while not actually motivating anyone to participate.
I'm not sure why you don't see how your proposal is for all intents identical to the Skyway situation, with the possible difference of frequency. And quite frankly, I hate the Rikti raids now, but this change is in no way an improvement.
As far as I'm concerned, this is an irredeemably bad idea. The general consensus in this thread seems to agree with me. Whatever the magic solution is to making Rikti invasions good for me, this isn't even in the same continent as it.
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
[ QUOTE ]
Every character I've ever created can handle the raids as they are now, and that's even at L1-5 (though some find it easier than others).
[/ QUOTE ]
Do it solo, then get back to me, please.
As it stands, a solo/duo level 1-20, from personal experience, is going to get stepped on by the raids, because they just can't do enough damage to get rid of the hostiles they have before more teleport in.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every character I've ever created can handle the raids as they are now, and that's even at L1-5 (though some find it easier than others).
[/ QUOTE ]
Do it solo, then get back to me, please.
As it stands, a solo/duo level 1-20, from personal experience, is going to get stepped on by the raids, because they just can't do enough damage to get rid of the hostiles they have before more teleport in.
[/ QUOTE ]
My experience as well. I have to call shenanigans on a level 1-5 "handling" even a single Rikti. If the Rikti doesn't get some backup, the lowbie *might* be able to wear it down eventually, but I doubt it (unless the Rikti just stands there and lets the lowbie pound on it, 
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
Ad Astra, Dalantia:
When the raids first came out (and even during the open beta, when the spawns were enormous), I often roamed zones by myself, looking for bombs. When the Rikti started beaming in, I would come under attack, while alone. This happened to many fo my characters, including several new characters I had made. One of them was L1, though I'll readily admit, he was very hard pressed and did have to retreat. My Tankers had no real trouble, but they were somewhat higher level by then (10ish). It does take some careful tactics. If you're just going to stand there, you're going to get overwhelmed.
Either way, if this is a problem, it should be easy enough to scale back the beam-in rate of rikti, giving people more time to handle them.
Firespray:
Well, you seem to be telling me what's fun. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I, and judging from the turnout I ALWAYS see for raids, don't agree. There are a great many who think the raids ARE fun. I'm just trying to make them a bit more interesting, and rather less laggy. You're essentially telling me that I'm not allowed to have MY fun, which is what you accused ME of.
Since you're not getting it, let me make it simple for you.
My Idea = SAME Rikti in better package
Better package = good
My Idea = good
But then, it's not that simple is it?
I've presented an alternative to one gigantic mass of Rikti beaming in endlessly for 20 minutes that will be more interesting, more immersive and less strenuous on many systems.
I presented an idea for ongoing occupation of zones that was objected to. I conceded that this objection was a valid one, and I modified the idea for an occupied zone to accomodate the objection.
Despite this, you continue to object, even though I've accomodated your objection. That's starting to look like petulance.
Basilisk:
I don't see it being like the Supatrolls (though I did like the way they were implemented once upon a time). As you say yourself, it would be a very occasional, short duration event. The Trolls were anything but.
Catwhoorg:
Actually, he's starting to really shape up. Now that he's L27, his defenses (Tough and Weave plus Dispersion Bubble) are proving fairly decent. His damage is still apalling, but he's better able to survive. The last team I was on, I was Tankfendering! By L43, he'll have 71% Resistance and more than 33% Defense! Pretty decent numbers! If only there was a way to boost his damage output somewhat.
It doesn't change my opinion of Defenders in general however.
But that's a different thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Ad Astra, Dalantia:
When the raids first came out (and even during the open beta, when the spawns were enormous), I often roamed zones by myself, looking for bombs. When the Rikti started beaming in, I would come under attack, while alone. This happened to many fo my characters, including several new characters I had made. One of them was L1, though I'll readily admit, he was very hard pressed and did have to retreat. My Tankers had no real trouble, but they were somewhat higher level by then (10ish). It does take some careful tactics. If you're just going to stand there, you're going to get overwhelmed.
Either way, if this is a problem, it should be easy enough to scale back the beam-in rate of rikti, giving people more time to handle them.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you are conceding my point that there are some characters who cannot handle Rikti alone because they are too low?
How is it fun for that character/player to have to retreat?
Also - what tactics can be used by the lowbie character to "handle" Rikti? Other than the aforementioned "retreat"? Believe me, my characters do not "just stand there".
Finally, nice how your example of a low-level character that had "no real trouble" is a tank.
I think your reply to me supports my point better than it supports yours.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
The L1 character was a Blaster. He was caught out in the open, and used tactics like getting under cover and spreading the foes out, keeping out of melee range and such. Pretty common sense stuff. I can't tell you how many rikit I defeated, but eventually they wore me down enough that I fell back under an overpass and stayed there until I could recover (after which I went to Ms. Liberty to join the melee).
I found it a lot of fun, even though I had to retreat eventually.
In short, I'm not conceding anything. I stand by my comment. If the beaming in had been slowed down some, I likely wouldn't have even needed to fall back.
(I feel I should also note that I leveled up during the fight, which did help quite a bit, and as a Veteran player, I did have Sands of Mu to help me).
The Tank had no real trouble, inasmuch as he was able to survive. He was far less able to defeat his foes. They weren't defeating him, but he wasn't defeating them, either. He really only got into trouble when he got low on endurance.
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ALTERNATE ZONE SPAWN LIKE WHEN A SERVER IS OVER THE POPULATION CAP!!!!! SIMPLE SOLUTION!!!! YOU DON"T WANT TO DO IT GO TO THE NON RAID ZONE!!!!
Ok I used my big voice..... maybe people will hear what I think is the solution to the problem with an otherwise awesome idea.
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Sure. Do that and I have no complaints.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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[ QUOTE ]
The L1 character was a Blaster. He was caught out in the open, and used tactics like getting under cover and spreading the foes out, keeping out of melee range and such.
[/ QUOTE ]
And we, the tag team of 10 defender and 10 blaster, could not outdamage their output before reinforcements beamed in that would eventually cause, for lack of a better way of putting it, an overwhelming horde because we simply couldn't keep up with the reinforcements. And yes, we used similar tactics.
Even in larger engagements, a full team of low-level characters is going to be a drop in the bucket, getting lucky to actually tag the critters for enough for badge credit.
Just because your blaster may have been optimized for Rikti fighting and obviously got multiple lucky breaks during the fight, etc etc..
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
Firespray:
Well, you seem to be telling me what's fun. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I, and judging from the turnout I ALWAYS see for raids, don't agree. There are a great many who think the raids ARE fun. I'm just trying to make them a bit more interesting, and rather less laggy. You're essentially telling me that I'm not allowed to have MY fun, which is what you accused ME of.
Since you're not getting it, let me make it simple for you.
My Idea = SAME Rikti in better package
Better package = good
My Idea = good
But then, it's not that simple is it?
I've presented an alternative to one gigantic mass of Rikti beaming in endlessly for 20 minutes that will be more interesting, more immersive and less strenuous on many systems.
I presented an idea for ongoing occupation of zones that was objected to. I conceded that this objection was a valid one, and I modified the idea for an occupied zone to accomodate the objection.
Despite this, you continue to object, even though I've accomodated your objection. That's starting to look like petulance.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that you can't have your fun. I haven't said that the rikti raids should be removed from the game altogether (although I'd be quite happy if they were). I know that some people find them fun. That's what is good about the raids now, the people that like doing them can go participate, and the people who don't want anything to do with them can just leave the zone temporarily.
Even your revised idea changes that. If the raid isn't fought off (which will happen, somewhere, at some time), there will eventually be rikti in every zone in the city. Your second suggestion was that they not beam in, but just be extra spawns. That still disrupts the rest of the game too much. It still means that there will be twice as many enemies in the zone as there were before, and it could still be disruptive of hunt missions. If the spawns all show up in the same place, they'll start fighting, so what happens when the rikti wipe out all the other spawns in the zone.
My disagreeing with your idea is not petulance, you just aren't paying attention to my objections. I said much earlier in this thread that I am in support of making the rikti raids more interesting on 2 conditions.
1. They end, regardless of player participation, after a specified amount of time. This amount of time can be no longer than the current length of the rikti raids.
2. They are limited to 1 zone at a time. No other zones in the city should be affected in any way.
Right now your idea doesn't fulfill either of those conditions, so I'm still against it. Nor does it do anything to encourage me to participate more in rikti raids (since there's been no mention of a better reward, and other than novelty, they don't offer much more in the way of fun from what I can see).
I'll admit that your revised idea is less disruptive than your previous one, but still more disruptive than the raids we have now.
It's like your first idea was, "I'm going to give you a swift kick to the groin". When I objected, you changed it to "Okay, I'm still going to give you a swift kick to the groin, but I'll take off my shoe first". Well, I suppose that's a little better isn't it, but you know what would be even better? Not getting kicked in the groin in the first place.
Stop trying to kick me in the groin Ultimo_
[ QUOTE ]
It's like your first idea was, "I'm going to give you a swift kick to the groin". When I objected, you changed it to "Okay, I'm still going to give you a swift kick to the groin, but I'll take off my shoe first". Well, I suppose that's a little better isn't it, but you know what would be even better? Not getting kicked in the groin in the first place.
Stop trying to kick me in the groin Ultimo_
[/ QUOTE ]
And I'm hearing Yahtzee's voice describe that.
And you're in for a kick in the balls.
Maybe a genteeler kick in the balls than most.
An extremely pretty well executed kick in the balls with the best of intentions but at the end of the day you're still walking funny.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
And AGAIN, I tell you the raids would STILL be temporary, they would STILL be one zone at a time. You could STILL leave the zone temporarily until it was done while those interested could participate. NONE of these things would change. Only the implementation of HOW the raids are realized would change.
My idea wouldn't be any more disruptive than what we have now, and might even be LESS so as the raids could be stopped more quickly and reliably than they are now. The only tradeoff is that the Rikti might hang around the zone after the raid, for a while, and even that wouldn't affect you significantly.
Quite frankly, if there aren't enough people on a server to stop a raid like I've suggested, then that server should be shut down for being unpopulated. I could probably stop a raid like I've described entirely by myself.
That's just not an argument, because the odds of it ever happening are so astronomically small.
As for the Blaster working solo, I have to say that I've found that the Rikti are far more overwhelming when there are several people in a group. The reason seems to be that there are more of them, and they tend to spawn tougher rikti, such as Mesmerists. I don't doubt that your duo had a harder time than my solo Blaster.
Oh, and tell me how I can optimize a character for ANYTHING at L1?
Some powersets are better against some critters than others. Really, you've been here for years, you should know this. 
(I probably should have said "unintentional optimization" for more accuracy, though.)
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
You're seriously telling me you think a character with two attacks (well, three, including Sands) is optimized for ANYTHING, regardless of power set?
[ QUOTE ]
The Rikti come in and attack the three targets. If they succeed, the raid moves on to an adjacent zone, and the zone they were just in becomes "conquered."
"Conquered" zones will have three rikti control points for the heroes to attack. Destroying them would return the zone to normal, and the raid would stop.
While conquered, the zone would behave normally, however raid-style Rikti would spawn in the normal spawn points, IN ADDITION TO the regular spawns.
Thus, wherever normal foes are spawning, the Rikti are spawning there too (and likely attacking the regular spawns).
This would allow those doing hunts to do them, though they would risk having to fight a few rikti here and there, and it would allow people that need to talk to contacts the freedom to do so, all while maintaining the sense of being in a warzone.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's ok, and reasonable enough.
In principle, the suggested raid is not temporary. If no one participate, it can persist. I think it's a little misleading to say that it is temporary. But I agree it's pretty unlikely that nobody would take the time to destroy a couple spawn points for an extended period of time.
[ QUOTE ]
NOW what do you think? Does that satisfy everyone?
[/ QUOTE ]
For a suggestion of this type, the replies from us are useful to further polish your idea. There will always be people who jranger because every idea has its pros and cons. It's not necessary to have everyone of us say yes.
True enough, Snow. I'll repackage and post a revised suggestion when I have a little more time.
Hmmmm. Alt-zone spawns make a LOT of sense... then you could see:
Atlas Park-1
Atlas Park-2 (overflow)
Atlas Park-3 (Rikti invasion)
Atlas Park-4 (Zombie invasion)
Atlas Park-5 (earthquake/fires)
Atlas Park-6 (Gnome infestation)
I'm not saying all of these would show at once... but having alt zones, and a brief description of WHY would solve an awful lot of annoyances for me.
Also... for the traveling invasion, have it affect only ONE zone at a time... with different phases.
1. objective phase... stop the rikti from blowing up the three mcGuffins: success=zone done, fail=phase2
2. fight off the invading rikti: success= zone done, fail= phase3
3. attack the entrenched rikti that are building ships: success=zone done, fail= phase4
4. watch as the rikti launch into the sky with ships that travel to a new zone... Maybe you can blow a few up before they leave.
[ QUOTE ]
And AGAIN, I tell you the raids would STILL be temporary, they would STILL be one zone at a time. You could STILL leave the zone temporarily until it was done while those interested could participate. NONE of these things would change. Only the implementation of HOW the raids are realized would change.
My idea wouldn't be any more disruptive than what we have now, and might even be LESS so as the raids could be stopped more quickly and reliably than they are now. The only tradeoff is that the Rikti might hang around the zone after the raid, for a while, and even that wouldn't affect you significantly.
Quite frankly, if there aren't enough people on a server to stop a raid like I've suggested, then that server should be shut down for being unpopulated. I could probably stop a raid like I've described entirely by myself.
That's just not an argument, because the odds of it ever happening are so astronomically small.
[/ QUOTE ]
And once again, you're ignoring the purpose of my objections to argue semantics. I believe there are 22 zones heroside? (at least that's how many teleporters my base has). At 15 minutes per zone before moving on to the next one, a raid has the potential to last 5.5 hours heroside (obviously much less villainside, due to fewer zones). Now I suppose 5.5 hours can still be considered temporary, but it's not really the same thing as 15 minutes. Besides, I know for a fact that I said in order for me to support your idea the raid couldn't last any longer than it does now, and I'm pretty sure 5.5 hours is a lot longer than 15 minutes. It doesn't matter that it might not always last that long, it matters that it COULD.
And I completely disagree with you that they wouldn't be more disruptive than what we have now. Having 2x as many spawns in each zone when trying to do something there IS disruptive. And don't tell me that wouldn't affect me significantly. You have no idea what I consider significant. I'll give you a hint though, if there is ANY effect on more than 1 zone at a time, it's significant.
And whether the raid gets stopped or not has nothing to do with how many people are on a server. It has everything to do with how many people choose to participate in the raid. And people's decision on whether to participate or not should not have to be based on the fact that a bunch of zones might get cluttered up with random rikti spawns if they don't participate.
But go ahead and ignore my objections again and continue trying to convince me based on YOUR logic that this is THE GR8TEST IDEA EVAR!!!!!1!!1!1!!one!1!!1eleventyone
[ QUOTE ]
Quite frankly, if there aren't enough people on a server to stop a raid like I've suggested, then that server should be shut down for being unpopulated. I could probably stop a raid like I've described entirely by myself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right.
THAT is a brilliant idea.
Absolutely brilliant.
That's something nobody will argue against, it's that brilliant.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
You may scoff, but as I said, for one of these raids, as I described them, to be unstoppable, there would have to be literally NO players on it.
If they're maintaining a server that's actually completely empty, then it ought to be shut down, if only for financial considerations.
Of course, I don't believe that would ever happen, so it's a ridiculous argument to say the raids couldn't be stopped.
Consider that I play largely on Triumph, which has a lower population than many servers, and I've never had ANY trouble finding a team for a raid. In fact, there's usually so many people involved that my frames per second drops to seconds per frame. Thus, I can't buy this argument that there's any real chance of there being insufficient people to stop a raid.
[ QUOTE ]
You know, the more I look at my response to Aett, the more I like it. Here's the amended idea.
Change the initial raid as I described before. The Rikti come in and attack the three targets. If they succeed, the raid moves on to an adjacent zone, and the zone they were just in becomes "conquered."
"Conquered" zones will have three rikti control points for the heroes to attack. Destroying them would return the zone to normal, and the raid would stop.
While conquered, the zone would behave normally, however raid-style Rikti would spawn in the normal spawn points, IN ADDITION TO the regular spawns.
Thus, wherever normal foes are spawning, the Rikti are spawning there too (and likely attacking the regular spawns).
This would allow those doing hunts to do them, though they would risk having to fight a few rikti here and there, and it would allow people that need to talk to contacts the freedom to do so, all while maintaining the sense of being in a warzone.
NOW what do you think? Does that satisfy everyone?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, no.
How do you work with the fact that there are servers that may not have "enough" heroes or villains on at the time (and in the appropriate level range to notice or care about whether the zone is overrun) to pull off this "taking back a conquered zone"?
Your statement that even a single hero could guard one of the points to prevent takeover doesn't seem possible for me, given that there *are* AT/powerset combinations not meant to handle such duties. I would really feel sorry for the lone level 8 earth/emp controller in KR (or worse, Perez Park) during one of your raids.
And if I were that lone level 8 earth/emp controller, I would just log off and say to hell with playing City of *, because the casual atmosphere of "anyone can solo" would have just been made a lie.
Honestly, with your discontent about not being able to make your tankmage and not feeling "super" enough, I sometimes wonder why you still play this game. If you want "consequences" on the scale you seem to be looking for (demanding that every other player drop what they are doing to play your minigame of GM must be stopped before he destroys the zone) perhaps there is a different game out there that better suits your desires. I don't want to play it.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."