Fire/Kin Duo Do I really NEED Stamina??

Hey All,

Running a Fire/Kin Duo (both will have the same powers) and I am wondering, since I will be able to SB myself, do I really need Stamina at all? keep in Mind I'll be able to hit Transference alot since I'll have 2 of them.

Ideas?

Also,

I prefer Hover/Fly to anything else, and since I am in Melee range all the time would Air Sup. be useful at all?

My Fire/Kin was the biggest END hog I ever played, and it's a long way to 38.

Plus, what else are you going to take? Both Fire and Kin have some very skippable powers. (Smoke, Bonfire, Inertial Reduction, Increase Density) I like the Fitness line because it gives 2 rather good powers (health, sta) and one ok power that you don't need to worry about or manage with clicks.

So I say yes, you should take it, having to keep SB up all the time isn't fun.

um , yes.

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Hey All,

Running a Fire/Kin Duo (both will have the same powers) and I am wondering, since I will be able to SB myself, do I really need Stamina at all? keep in Mind I'll be able to hit Transference alot since I'll have 2 of them.

Ideas?

Also,

I prefer Hover/Fly to anything else, and since I am in Melee range all the time would Air Sup. be useful at all?

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Heck, even my Grav/kin needs Stamina so I say yes. Now you can lvl to 50 IO out the wazoo and then drop stamina...but I wouldn't recommend it. Bosses and AV's would own you.

Going to have to disagree with others. If you can rely on having SB up all the time, then you absolutely do not need stamina. Slot SB for end mod if you find you need it, though even without that it's still providing more recovery than stamina will. Once you get to transference you'll have so few endurance problems anyway, and those extra power picks will be handy. You can stack leadership for example, or take stimulant for the broader mez protection than ID.

Air sup will provide you with some extra ST damage that is likely to help through the early levels, particularly for bosses or other tough targets. Once you get into the higher levels you are likely to find that running two fire/kins will require an insane amount of activity and you will likely forget about using the attack in favor of keeping all the buffs and controls going and letting hot feet and imps deal most of the damage.

Nobody needs any power unless it is the first secondary on the list.

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Going to have to disagree with others. If you can rely on having SB up all the time, then you absolutely do not need stamina. Slot SB for end mod if you find you need it, though even without that it's still providing more recovery than stamina will. Once you get to transference you'll have so few endurance problems anyway, and those extra power picks will be handy. You can stack leadership for example, or take stimulant for the broader mez protection than ID.

Air sup will provide you with some extra ST damage that is likely to help through the early levels, particularly for bosses or other tough targets. Once you get into the higher levels you are likely to find that running two fire/kins will require an insane amount of activity and you will likely forget about using the attack in favor of keeping all the buffs and controls going and letting hot feet and imps deal most of the damage.

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ah Excellent, I was hoping it might MIGHT be possible, I was thinking about the leadership pool, at least assault that is. also, I kinda like the stealth power (or should I just get smoke?) as well.

Yes I only quoted the ONE reply that said it would be possible LOL, only seeing what I want to see much.....

I picked up Air Sup, I am sure I will either drop it (to get hover at some point) but for now it's fun . and it benefits from containment too, nice Boss killer.

Stacked assault will be helpful up to a point, though it will be completely overshadowed once you get to fulcrum shift. Against any reasonably large group the FS from both characters will be enough to cap your damage. You may wish to switch it out for maneuvers at some point, either as an IO mule or to combine with other defense if you build in that direction.

Stacking tactics, OTOH, is gold IMO. Fire/kin needs to be able to hit consistently, and that's a huge tohit buff.

You don't "need" stamina but you'll want it. If you don't take it what three powers do you need more than it? Fire/Kin easily fits stamina in a build without any kind of "gimping" whatsoever.

The Cult of the Blue Bar has spoken.

To be honest, I'm genuinely surprised this many people are taking that stance. Without the planned duo I'd completely agree, but if you can count on SB 24/7, and have access to two transferences after 35, I don't see the need at all. With reasonable endred slotting a "typical" fire/kin shouldn't have any significant endurance problems, and SB is twice as effective as stamina.

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To be honest, I'm genuinely surprised this many people are taking that stance. Without the planned duo I'd completely agree, but if you can count on SB 24/7, and have access to two transferences after 35, I don't see the need at all. With reasonable endred slotting a "typical" fire/kin shouldn't have any significant endurance problems, and SB is twice as effective as stamina.

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As I said in my post, what three powers (that you CAN'T fit into a normal fire/kin build) will help the duo more? My fire/kin (team build) has assault, tactics and vengeance as well as hasten and flight on top of fitness.

If you have Speed Boost up 100% of the time, you wont need Stamina. Especially with transference.

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As I said in my post, what three powers (that you CAN'T fit into a normal fire/kin build) will help the duo more? My fire/kin (team build) has assault, tactics and vengeance as well as hasten and flight on top of fitness.

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To an extent that's an impossible question to answer, since each individual will prioritize powers (particularly those generally considered more "optional") differently. But since the comparison is being drawn between how much stamina will help relative to other powers, the first question I ask is "how much will stamina help?"

Of everyone who is saying that they have stamina and couldn't give it up, how much more recovery would you need before you would be satisfied? If you have slotted SB replacing slotted stamina, you're already adding nearly 50% recovery. That's a heck of a lot. Whenever I've run into endurance problems in the higher levels on fire/kin, it's generally because I've just used a bunch of high cost powers (flashfire, fire cages, fulcrum shift, fireball...) and missed with transference. Having two characters with transference, that's an extremely rare occurence. Assuming a reasonable amount of endurance slotting, I would expect the extra recovery from stamina to make a difference infrequently at best. This brings a far different perspective on its value relative to other powers than for a typical build.

(As an aside, someone may look at my comment regarding reasonable endred slotting and say that stamina should allow you to skip some of that. Totally true, but I've never claimed that taking stamina would be a mistake, just that other alternatives are just as viable.)

The rest of fitness is thus what remains. Swift or hurdle are both pretty insignificant when you have SB and fly. Health is certainly decent, but there are other options for regaining health and mitigating sleep.

Other power selections that I could see being effective:
<ul type="square">[*] ID (I mention this only because someone mentioned it as very skippable. While it is to an extent, I think its value is increased in this situation.)[*] All four APP powers, which many builds struggle to take otherwise.[*] Aid self on both characters, or aid self and aid other on one character, if you're looking for a heal when transfusion isn't practical.[*] Tough, particularly if stacked with a resistance armor from the APP.[*] Grant invis. Alternatively, smoke, which will actually generate a decent tohit debuff if slotted, double stacked and used alongside good defense numbers.[*] Anything else the OP considers useful.[/list]
Do I consider stamina a bad option? Not at all. But a perma-SBed fire/kin without stamina has a lot more recovery than fire/kins with stamina but without reliable outside buffs, and they manage just fine.

My team oriented build also has ID.

Aid self? Come on, seriously.

Tough, while nice is really only "needed" on a farm build not something needed for a typical duo spawn. I would venture to say that two fire/kins on a two man spawn even on invince could handle without shields of any type let alone tough.

I'm not so sure two fire/kins need the minimum defense that invis has to offer....stealthing missions maybe.

And I don't argue your point, no one "needs" stamina, my point is why wouldn't anyone want it? Besides the typical "rebel without a cause" I-don't-want-it-because-someone-says-I-need-it argument. Fire/kins are all about go go go! and stamina allows that to happen even more. But yes you can build viably without it, my point is to fire/kins those other options you pointed out won't make the build more viable than a build without them but with stamina.

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Of everyone who is saying that they have stamina and couldn't give it up, how much more recovery would you need before you would be satisfied

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In my opinion you can never have enough recovery. Gimme more gimme more.

The Cult of the Blue Bar has spoken.

Would you like one of our pamphlets?

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If you have Speed Boost up 100% of the time, you wont need Stamina. Especially with transference.

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If you have Speed Boost up 100% of the time, you wont need Stamina. Especially with transference.

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OR

If you have Stamina and transference you won't need speed boost.

OR

If you have stamina and speed boost you won't need transference.

Me, I'll take all three.

Stamina is not really worth three powers in my mind unless you really need it (most toons do though). I take it only out of grudging necessity--I so often have other things I'd rather be taking, even if just as toys for fun. This power pool stuff (and the way their requirements work) is just an irritation to me.

This 'cult of the blue bar' stuff... Don't listen to the fanatics. I say just skip Stamina in that team setup. I've managed it on a Kin toon with just Transference (no outside SBs or anything), I'm pretty sure you can do it on a Fire/Kin duo with consistent SBs.

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I've managed it on a Kin toon with just Transference

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Was it a controller or defender or corruptor?

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This 'cult of the blue bar' stuff... Don't listen to the fanatics.

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We're watching you.........oh yeah we're keeping an eye on this one.

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You don't "need" stamina but you'll want it. If you don't take it what three powers do you need more than it? Fire/Kin easily fits stamina in a build without any kind of "gimping" whatsoever.

The Cult of the Blue Bar has spoken.

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Something like this I Think. Again please keep in mind that with my Duo I will have Perma SB.

I am considering getting Stimulant, But I think with ID and the heal I should have that covered.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Level 48 Science Controller
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Char -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Fire Cages -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Siphon Power -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Air Superiority -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Hot Feet -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Flashfire -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Fly -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Increase Density -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Cinders -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Speed Boost -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Weave -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Grant Invisibility -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Fire Imps -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Transference -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Tactics -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Fire Ball -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Fire Shield -- Empty(A)
Level 49: Vengeance -- Empty(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment



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What is your duo going to be doing specifically? Why do you need the fighting pool and grant invis? And what are the defense numbers? Because then turning around and using a resist based shield is kind of defeating the purpose isn't it? Why not go earth or ice where you can stack your defense with your shields?

And while I kid about "the cult of the blue bar", I'll just say that while "neat" to work around stamina as a little experiment or an act of rebellion (not namecalling the OP btw), I don't see how that build is in any way more effective than one with stamina. Sorry, but duo spawns aren't going to be a challenge to two fire/kins without shields let alone with all that defense you seem to be hoarding (although as I pointed out a defense based shield makes more sense to me) And you are going to be running a crap load of toggles.....gee stamina would be nice. In my opinion all the extra (note: EXTRA) slots you'll have to dedicate to end reduction in toggles and in your control powers could be reduced to the 2 additional slots that are needed to have two fitness powers (default slots) then stamina three slotted. And yes on top of perma SB..

Edit- And OP I'm not trying to beat up on you or anything, I promise. I'm more curious about what it is you are trying to accomplish and expressing just one perspective on the discussion, so please don't take it that I'm trying to pick on you.

Just my perspective.

Duo Fire/Kins are a waste. Combine a Fire/Kin with a Fire/Rad for the win. Think about it

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Duo Fire/Kins are a waste. Combine a Fire/Kin with a Fire/Rad for the win. Think about it

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Probably one of the best comments in this thread.....including my own.

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I've managed it on a Kin toon with just Transference

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Was it a controller or defender or corruptor?

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Defender. Kin/Dark, specifically. Mind you, that doesn't have Hotfeet or the like to deal with in terms of endurance consumption, so I can see why an additional source of endurance might be desired. Not to mention that if you're hitting Transference less often, you're spending a bit more time doing other stuff instead.

In terms of trollers I have an Ice/Kin who doesn't have Transference yet, and who will likely level with Stamina until she gets access to it and then try out a Staminaless alt build to see if it works well for her.

There're always alt builds, though, to try it and see if they need Stamina or not (they could even play with and without Stamina and compare the difference). Honestly, the answer will likely vary based on playstyle and slotting, and so on.

Basically, I can see "All you need is Transference!", "You should have two of: Transference, Stamina, or SB", and "The more the better!" as all valid answers, depending. It can be nice to not to have to worry in even the slightest about your blue bar, but some players might put higher priority on what other skills can bring as long as they have enough recovery to basically get the job done regularly. It seems like you've chosen to put the higher priority on keeping the blue bar up high and that's perfectly fine.

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Duo Fire/Kins are a waste. Combine a Fire/Kin with a Fire/Rad for the win. Think about it

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Probably one of the best comments in this thread.....including my own.

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Tks Just amazes me when I see people with multiple F/Ks and I'm like why. Give me a F/K, F/R, &amp; F/S and enemies melt.