It's been suggested before. I'm a farmer, but I think I'll let all the story writers argue this one with you.
No, I don't particularly think it's a good idea.
"Boss farms" may contain "ungodly XP," but it's a mission full of bosses, not "stuff that can't fight back." The issue with the devs when it comes to farming is not *farming,* but *exploits.* Bosses do give risk and take some time to kill - if I took most of my characters into a boss farm, I'd probably have a faster time levelling doing regular missions.
Having a custom group require every rank would, in fact, screw up several arcs. Legitimate arcs, yes.
There's also the fact that some folks are going to make boss farms, not for "ungodly XP" (what good is XP to a 50?) but for the sheer challenge. Characters that can slice through minions without even considering breaking a sweat. Force them to have to have lower ranks in their challenge missions, and there's not much reason for them to play with the AE as opposed to running newspaper missions (where they'd at least be getting a shot at purple drops, for instance.)
I think this is a solution in search of a problem, quite honestly.
Why? All-lieutenant or boss factions aren't easier, they're the exact opposite.
Why are we still trying to "curb farming" exactly? The AE has been pounded halfway into oblivion with these efforts to stomp something out that has been part of the game for ages anyway.
QR
Weatherby_Goode - "Heck, Carrion Creepers negates the knockdown from Carrion Creepers."
should i start handing out the snacks yet?
[ QUOTE ]
Why? All-lieutenant or boss factions aren't easier, they're the exact opposite.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, they're not easier, but to a decently put-together team, they aren't much harder either. And they aren't much slower. And the XP is TONS higher.
Honestly, I think this would help with the AE farming some, since it would not give such massive xp gains. I realize it might restrict storytelling a little bit, but I think that's okay.
At the moment, I can't think of ANY enemy groups in the game that contain enemies of only one rank. They all contain minions, LTs, and bosses, as well as some having underlings, EBs, AVs, and GMs. Why should the custom enemy groups we create in the AE work under different rules?
I think this is a much better (and far more likely to happen) solution to the massive farming going on than many other things I've heard suggested (or fear may happen).
[ QUOTE ]
Why should the custom enemy groups we create in the AE work under different rules?
[/ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't they ?
Most normal dev content is painfully boring to solo if you know what you're doing, and it gets even easier on teams if your teammates are good. Having the option to put lieutenants and bosses only in challenge maps is much more fun.
"Give buff/debuff sets to all minions, see if they're so easy then !"
Sure, that's an option. A tedious option. I'd rather hit big sacks of HP doing big damage than minions stacking buffs/debuffs to godlike status, especially as buff/debuff stacking from your foes means you're better off soloing than teaming, as the mobs will get exponentially stronger with numbers ; just like I have much more fun on a team with few buff/debuff ATs if at all, as stacking buffs/debuffs is brokenly good in this game.
You can restrict this and that all you want, but ultimately the only way you're going to stop farming is by level restricting the AE buildings in the various zones. Otherwise farmers will just keep coming up with new inventive farms, until mobs have been restricted so much that you can't do anything with them.
It's time for the devs to stop being reactive and start being proactive about this.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I think this would help with the AE farming some, since it would not give such massive xp gains. I realize it might restrict storytelling a little bit, but I think that's okay.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the mentioned purpose of the AE?
Answer, so you don't have to look: To allow players to make and share their own stories. So, no, restricting that is not "okay."
The devs will go out of their way to curb *exploits.* Exploits are not synonymous with "Farming." It is not synonymous with "All boss map." Bosses by default have more powers and attacks available to them. They are not risk free or nearly risk free by default, unlike the exploit that was just closed.
[ QUOTE ]
At the moment, I can't think of ANY enemy groups in the game that contain enemies of only one rank They all contain minions, LTs, and bosses, as well as some having underlings, EBs, AVs, and GMs. Why should the custom enemy groups we create in the AE work under different rules?
.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can think of multiple missions.
"Defeat Back Alley Brawler." "Defeat Mynx." "Defeat..." (think the name was Burning Demon, one of the VEAT arcs.)Multiple "Defeat one named person."
Quite a few missions full of one mob type, one "group" of one individual with a different type (Vindicators, Paragon Heroes, Freedom Phalanx, Rogue Isle Villains, etc.) You know, the exact same situation that I can set up with a group with one named boss to ensure we don't have a mission with multiple "unique named enemy so-and-so" spawning. (Yes, over the course of the game we see the rest of that specific group - but not that one mission. Even if there are mutliple missions like that in one arc - like the Crimson Revenant arc - they're in their own group, pulled out for one specific mission. A separate, "all boss" group.)
And of course, the devs have more tools at their disposal than we do - we get a *subset* of them. They *can* force the mission to spawn only one, say, Chief Wilkins from Crey in a map full of Crey without giving him a group of his own.
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a much better (and far more likely to happen) solution to the massive farming going on than many other things I've heard suggested (or fear may happen).
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not better, or likely to happen, frankly. How many stories (the thing that's the *purpose* of the AE) would you damage? (Answer: Quite a few.)
[/ QUOTE ]I can think of multiple missions.
"Defeat Back Alley Brawler." "Defeat Mynx." "Defeat..." (think the name was Burning Demon, one of the VEAT arcs.)Multiple "Defeat one named person."
Quite a few missions full of one mob type, one "group" of one individual with a different type (Vindicators, Paragon Heroes, Freedom Phalanx, Rogue Isle Villains, etc.) You know, the exact same situation that I can set up with a group with one named boss to ensure we don't have a mission with multiple "unique named enemy so-and-so" spawning. (Yes, over the course of the game we see the rest of that specific group - but not that one mission. Even if there are mutliple missions like that in one arc - like the Crimson Revenant arc - they're in their own group, pulled out for one specific mission. A separate, "all boss" group.)
[/ QUOTE ]
These are great examples of missions that only require you to kill an AV. However the statement was there arent any "enemy groups" that have all bosses. All enemy groups consist of minions lts. and bosses at the very least.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm not going to go and rant about how farming is ruining the game (even though I totally agree that it is.) But, I do have a small suggestion to slightly curb farming from AE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Farming is not ruining the game. Farming has existed since launch of the game. Farming will always exist. Farming contributes to a healthy in-game market.
Fix the exploits (ie. Mitos) that break the risk vs. reward ratio and leave the rest alone. For every "fix" you can come up with, there will be a way around it.
You are not going to stop farming with this suggestion at all. You are only going to hurt people who use the MA for writing stories. There are instances where you may only want 1 boss or EB in a custom group and nothing else. Your "fix" would break that arc entirely now.
/unsigned
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can think of multiple missions.
"Defeat Back Alley Brawler." "Defeat Mynx." "Defeat..." (think the name was Burning Demon, one of the VEAT arcs.)Multiple "Defeat one named person."
Quite a few missions full of one mob type, one "group" of one individual with a different type (Vindicators, Paragon Heroes, Freedom Phalanx, Rogue Isle Villains, etc.) You know, the exact same situation that I can set up with a group with one named boss to ensure we don't have a mission with multiple "unique named enemy so-and-so" spawning. (Yes, over the course of the game we see the rest of that specific group - but not that one mission. Even if there are mutliple missions like that in one arc - like the Crimson Revenant arc - they're in their own group, pulled out for one specific mission. A separate, "all boss" group.)
[/ QUOTE ]
These are great examples of missions that only require you to kill an AV. However the statement was there arent any "enemy groups" that have all bosses. All enemy groups consist of minions lts. and bosses at the very least.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you missed this:
[ QUOTE ]
You know, the exact same situation that I can set up with a group with one named boss to ensure we don't have a mission with multiple "unique named enemy so-and-so" spawning.
[/ QUOTE ]
And you didn't bother quoting this:
[ QUOTE ]
And of course, the devs have more tools at their disposal than we do - we get a *subset* of them. They *can* force the mission to spawn only one, say, Chief Wilkins from Crey in a map full of Crey without giving him a group of his own.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is, of course, a big part of the reason to not force a group to have one of every rank. So it seems you missed the point. Which is, of course:
[ QUOTE ]
What is the mentioned purpose of the AE?
Answer, so you don't have to look: To allow players to make and share their own stories. So, no, restricting that is not "okay."
[/ QUOTE ]
I was for this idea when it was brought up before, but I went back and looked at my own story-driven arcs and realized that this suggestion would destroy all of them.
So, just fix the exploits as they are found and DON'T start restricting what you can do with enemy groups.
It's unfortunate, but just about anything you do to attempt to curb farming will have an adverse affect on the people who are using AE the way the devs meant for it to be used.
I did a little farming during the Comm Officer craze, just to get a few of my seldom played alts some levels. Since then I have had no desire or inclination to farm in AE, because it bores the hell out of me. Restricting what I can do with custom enemy groups would cause me to lose all interest in AE altogether.
Making the enemy groups follow the same rules as normal enemy groups would remove a large part of what makes them "custom".
In short, if you remove the ability to make farms, you also remove the ability to be creative in AE, which would result in AE buildings as empty as the Arenas and Boomtown. I'm sure the devs don't want to see that happen.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
[ QUOTE ]
"Defeat Back Alley Brawler." "Defeat Mynx." "Defeat..." (think the name was Burning Demon, one of the VEAT arcs.)Multiple "Defeat one named person."
Quite a few missions full of one mob type, one "group" of one individual with a different type (Vindicators, Paragon Heroes, Freedom Phalanx, Rogue Isle Villains, etc.) You know, the exact same situation that I can set up with a group with one named boss to ensure we don't have a mission with multiple "unique named enemy so-and-so" spawning. (Yes, over the course of the game we see the rest of that specific group - but not that one mission. Even if there are mutliple missions like that in one arc - like the Crimson Revenant arc - they're in their own group, pulled out for one specific mission. A separate, "all boss" group.)
And of course, the devs have more tools at their disposal than we do - we get a *subset* of them. They *can* force the mission to spawn only one, say, Chief Wilkins from Crey in a map full of Crey without giving him a group of his own.
[/ QUOTE ]
AE allows you to pick a custom boss and have a different surrounding enemy group. I have an arc with a custom hero I created surrounded by longbow. You set the main enemy group to something like Longbow, and then you can set the custom boss to be surrounded by longbow, or any other villain group.
The "Chief Wilkins" example can be created with AE too. You set the enemy group as Crey, then you pick which Crey boss you want. You can rename bosses of any kind with AE. I could rename Lord Recluse "Arachnos Dude" if I wanted to.
I really don't see how this would hurt the story-tellers. If they are wanting only one boss for their group for only one mission, they can set a different surrounding group. The "Defeat Back Alley Brawler" and "Defeat Mynx" mission can easily be set up in AE by just selecting Mynx or whoever you want as a boss, then set the surrounding group to longbow.
Arc ID: 348998 - Becoming a villain
Arc ID: 373341 - To Save a Hero
Got Inf?
But what about a situation where I want to create a group of clones and make them all absolutely identical AND all EBs, and have the mission filled with nothing but them?
Impossible to do if I MUST have a minion, LT and Boss in every group. It wouldn't be much of a farm either, as it would be INSANELY difficult the way I would do it.
Imagine a group of nothing but EBs on Extreme, with both Illusion and Mind Control sets. Yeah.....farm THAT mission 
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
[ QUOTE ]
What is the mentioned purpose of the AE?
Answer, so you don't have to look: To allow players to make and share their own stories. So, no, restricting that is not "okay."
[/ QUOTE ]
That's a perfectly valid opinion. I simply have a different one. I would much rather they made this minor restriction to storytelling ability rather than remove xp from AE altogether (something I see as unlikely, but possible if farming continues to run out of control as it is now).
[ QUOTE ]
The devs will go out of their way to curb *exploits.* Exploits are not synonymous with "Farming." It is not synonymous with "All boss map." Bosses by default have more powers and attacks available to them. They are not risk free or nearly risk free by default, unlike the exploit that was just closed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I also disagree with you that all-boss farms are not an exploit. Throughout the normal game you will NEVER find all-boss spawns like you can make in AE missions (i.e. it spawns a normal number of enemies, as if the spawn contained minions, LTs, and bosses, but replaces the missing minions and LTs with bosses, so that the spawn contains 10-20 bosses). In the normal game, if a spawn contains nothing but bosses (rare, but it can happen) it's usually only 3 or 4.
Just because something doesn't necessarily break the risk vs. reward ratio doesn't mean it's not an exploit (and I think there are strong arguments that can be made that all-boss farms DO break the risk vs. reward ratio).
Now personally, I don't care if they ever stop the farming. I like being able to run a character up to level 22 quickly. However, the devs have stated they don't want people farming in the MA, and I'd much rather they did this to try and stop it than a lot of the other things they could do.
[ QUOTE ]
Throughout the normal game you will NEVER find all-boss spawns like you can make in AE missions (i.e. it spawns a normal number of enemies, as if the spawn contained minions, LTs, and bosses, but replaces the missing minions and LTs with bosses, so that the spawn contains 10-20 bosses). In the normal game, if a spawn contains nothing but bosses (rare, but it can happen) it's usually only 3 or 4.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know of two all boss maps redside. I also know of an all-lt map, with the exception of 2 mission bosses. They exist in game. They may not be commonplace, but there's your precedent.
[ QUOTE ]
Bosses do give risk
[/ QUOTE ]
Kinda false.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Throughout the normal game you will NEVER find all-boss spawns like you can make in AE missions (i.e. it spawns a normal number of enemies, as if the spawn contained minions, LTs, and bosses, but replaces the missing minions and LTs with bosses, so that the spawn contains 10-20 bosses). In the normal game, if a spawn contains nothing but bosses (rare, but it can happen) it's usually only 3 or 4.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know of two all boss maps redside. I also know of an all-lt map, with the exception of 2 mission bosses. They exist in game. They may not be commonplace, but there's your precedent.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't aware of those, since I mostly play blueside, but they don't necessarily disprove my point. Do the bosses in the all-boss map spawn the way they do in an AE farm, with 10-20 bosses in each spawn group? Or do they spawn more normally with 3-4 bosses in each group?
Ok, I'm not going to go and rant about how farming is ruining the game (even though I totally agree that it is.) But, I do have a small suggestion to slightly curb farming from AE.
Right now, people can make Custom Mobs containing only bosses, therefore making all the enemies bosses, thus providing ungodly XP gain. There should be a mandatory requirement for all custom mobs to contain at least 1 minion, 1 lieutenant, and 1 boss. This would make boss farming impossible, and make farming AE less popular, if only by a little bit.
"But what if my custom mob is only for one Archvillain?"
Well, in the event that you're making a custom mob to hold just an Archvillain or Elite Boss, then I suggest this. If you create a villain group that only contains one enemy type (like, only 1 boss, or only 1 AV) then when you press save, a prompt would appear saying:
"You are about to save a custom group that only contains 1 of [rank]! Random minions, lieutenants and bosses will be placed into your group."
This is how it would work. I create XX villain group, just for my one Archvillain guy. If I didn't make any minions and such, 5th Column enemies would fill in the blanks (Because they cover all level ranges.)
This way, Boss Farms would cease to exist, but you could still make custom groups with just AV's or EB's, with random 5th Column to fill the empty spots. If I didn't create any custom minions for my AV's, then chances are the AV is going to be alone/surrounded by a different group.
I hope this makes sense, sorry if it doesn't. I can attempt to explain better if needed. Tell me what you think, is this a good idea or not?
Arc ID: 348998 - Becoming a villain
Arc ID: 373341 - To Save a Hero
Got Inf?