Stealth

(Oh noes a rant involving PvP, you've been warned)

Maybe it's just me, but why does it seem that the Stalker AT is the only AT that stealth actually means something?

I mean, my Illusion Controller, heck, any illusion controller has 2 powers with the pool power Invisibility stealth capabilities, but yet, only 1 will put you at the cap, and it seems just about everyone I come across sees through it.

Now, other ATs: Blasters, Scrappers, other Controllers, Defenders, Brutes, Corruptors, Etc., Etc., Etc., can all hit their stealth cap with Stealth/Stealth Power (I.E. Shadow Fall) and a Stealth IO, but yet on multiple toons of mine it seems none of that helps.

Sure, I get it, Stalkers purpose is to "Stalk" their foes, hence the invisibility, but that doesn't mean they should be the only ones capable of it. But that doesn't mean those Blasters and Corruptors should be allowed Stalker Level Stealth, but perhaps their Stealth Cap should be Raised, or Perception Cap Lowered. It's not like all those other ATs rely on it for Crits, only 2 ATs in the game get Crits (1 gets Scourge but thats a little different) and even the Stalker isn't guaranteed crits from hide.

Any stealth now to be is completely worthless to take (Exception: Stalker) and the Stealth pool in general to me is only for an extra Def boost from Stealth and Phase Shift.

I don't think it should have to be like that...

Any Thoughts?

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Just have to give up on that one. PVP is an arms race, and everyone will simply move to whatever level of advantage is available.

I agree with you, invisibility should be something special that a few toons you meet might have (for example Illusionists with supposedly superior invisibility). But the nature of PVP means everyone will build for it if it's an advantage, or everyone will see through it if otherwise available.

Min/max is the level playing field. If you aren't there, you're fodder.

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"When heroes fail, the Angels will save you."

MASTERMIND NUMERIC KEYPAD PET CONTROLS
HAMIDON NUKE RAID GUIDE

I don't see the need for any minor tweaks to stealth vs perception like that. If anything should happen, the entire system should be revamped so that it's far less binary (there's various different ways that can be taken that have been mentioned before).

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The VEATs also can crit from hide and out of hide

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Now, other ATs... can all hit their stealth cap with Stealth/Stealth Power (I.E. Shadow Fall) and a Stealth IO

[/ QUOTE ]Non-stalkers/arachnos will cap their stealth with just two stealth powers, no need for the IO. (571.5ft PvP cap, 389ft from each stealth power). Stalkers and Soldier of Arachnos need 3 sources of stealth in order to be capped, but other ATs only need 2 (1 if you're in Illusion Controller or you're teamed with an Illusion Controller)

Non-arachnos can see Non-stalker/arachnos from 581.5ft when the target is at the stealth cap and the viewer is at the perception cap. Normal ATs can see stealth-capped Arachnos at 301ft, and capped Stalkers at 10ft. Arachnos can see normal ATs at 689.1ft, other Arachnos at 408.6ft, and Stalkers at 117.6ft.

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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

I would say at least make it so that more than ONE +perc power is requirened to see a non stalker with stacked stealth ie stealth + stealth IO or stealth + sup invis

2cents tossed

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I would say at least make it so that more than ONE +perc power is requirened to see a non stalker with stacked stealth ie stealth + stealth IO or stealth + sup invis

[/ QUOTE ]It's already like that. Base perception is 500ft, and non-Stalker/non-Arachnos stealth cap is 571.5ft. If you have no +perception, you will never see a stealth-capped opponent. (Well, until they hit you, which drops their stealth...)

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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

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Now, other ATs... can all hit their stealth cap with Stealth/Stealth Power (I.E. Shadow Fall) and a Stealth IO

[/ QUOTE ]Non-stalkers/arachnos will cap their stealth with just two stealth powers, no need for the IO. (571.5ft PvP cap, 389ft from each stealth power). Stalkers and Soldier of Arachnos need 3 sources of stealth in order to be capped, but other ATs only need 2 (1 if you're in Illusion Controller or you're teamed with an Illusion Controller)

Non-arachnos can see Non-stalker/arachnos from 581.5ft when the target is at the stealth cap and the viewer is at the perception cap. Normal ATs can see stealth-capped Arachnos at 301ft, and capped Stalkers at 10ft. Arachnos can see normal ATs at 689.1ft, other Arachnos at 408.6ft, and Stalkers at 117.6ft.

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^^ This.

The reason Stalkers have a higher stealth cap is simply because that's necessary for them to do what they do - Assassin's Strike. You're not really very assassin-like if everyone can see you, are you? Stalkers need the time to set up an AS uninterrupted or their biggest advantage is worthless (contrary to popular belief, getting an AS off against a competent player is, while easier than it was in I12, difficult). VEATs have a higher stealth cap than the average AT because again, they have controlled criticals from hide, though they don't require an interruptible set-up time. The best counter to a Stalker is not to stack up lots and lots of perception (though that helps), but to always be moving. A Stalker can't AS you if you're always moving (unless they're really good at predicting where you'll run by them or land from a jump).

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Now, other ATs... can all hit their stealth cap with Stealth/Stealth Power (I.E. Shadow Fall) and a Stealth IO

[/ QUOTE ]Non-stalkers/arachnos will cap their stealth with just two stealth powers, no need for the IO. (571.5ft PvP cap, 389ft from each stealth power). Stalkers and Soldier of Arachnos need 3 sources of stealth in order to be capped, but other ATs only need 2 (1 if you're in Illusion Controller or you're teamed with an Illusion Controller)

Non-arachnos can see Non-stalker/arachnos from 581.5ft when the target is at the stealth cap and the viewer is at the perception cap. Normal ATs can see stealth-capped Arachnos at 301ft, and capped Stalkers at 10ft. Arachnos can see normal ATs at 689.1ft, other Arachnos at 408.6ft, and Stalkers at 117.6ft.

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^^ This.

The reason Stalkers have a higher stealth cap is simply because that's necessary for them to do what they do - Assassin's Strike. You're not really very assassin-like if everyone can see you, are you? Stalkers need the time to set up an AS uninterrupted or their biggest advantage is worthless (contrary to popular belief, getting an AS off against a competent player is, while easier than it was in I12, difficult). VEATs have a higher stealth cap than the average AT because again, they have controlled criticals from hide, though they don't require an interruptible set-up time. The best counter to a Stalker is not to stack up lots and lots of perception (though that helps), but to always be moving. A Stalker can't AS you if you're always moving (unless they're really good at predicting where you'll run by them or land from a jump).

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If you read through it all I did note I know Stalkers need the stealth to do their job, VEATs had slipped my mind of the other that have higher stealth, but you can still see them at close range with a Perception Power+Perception IO, unlike Stalkers, where you need to have Perception Cap to see Stalkers at "very" close range or something like that...

I would really like something minor to change 'bout the whole stealth thing but I doubt it ever will...

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A minor change won't fix the issues of stealth in this game... a minor change will only gimp one side while making the other side over powered.

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I would say at least make it so that more than ONE +perc power is requirened to see a non stalker with stacked stealth ie stealth + stealth IO or stealth + sup invis

[/ QUOTE ]It's already like that. Base perception is 500ft, and non-Stalker/non-Arachnos stealth cap is 571.5ft. If you have no +perception, you will never see a stealth-capped opponent. (Well, until they hit you, which drops their stealth...)

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so what youre saying is that if someone has, for example FA, he/she will not be able to see a stealth capped non stalker/arachnos ?

if im not mistaken , all you need to see a stealth capped NON stalker/arach is ONE +perc power.

and what i was earlier suggesting is, at least make it so that the stealth cap for non stalks requires people to pick up at least 2 sources of +perc. right now any secondary with +perc can already see a stealth capped non stalker/arach. could the devs make it so at least these people with +perc built into their builds would be required to take an additional +perc to see stealth CAPPED foes ? i mean ... cuz right now the stealth "cap" is so low its like trying to hide in a well lit square room with no furniture ...

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If you do that, then you're stepping on the toes of the SoA, so you'll have to raise their cap. Oops! Now the SoA are stepping on the toes of Stalkers, and you gotta raise their cap! Great, now Stalkers can't be seen at all!

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why would raising the cap of non stalk/arach step on the toes of SoAs ?

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Because the SoA have their stealth cap slightly above the other ATs. If you raise the others at all, then they'd be as high as or higher than them.

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so then stealth "cap" will forever mean hide behind the glass window >.> ... during the day ...

edit: typo

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so then stealth "cap" will forever mean hide behind the glass window >.> ... during the day ...

edit: typo

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Not everyone has +perception. Those that explicitly build around having +perception will be able to counter those that equally build around +stealth... with the current system, that seems rather reasonable.

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what yorue suggesting is that SoAs are going to be unhappy that normal ATs are getting the same stealth cap as them ? ...

but i mean SoAs are being seen as we speak given that their stealth cap requires 2+perc powers ... right ? so whther or not other ATs get a bump to their stealth cap shouldnt really matter, SoAs will still be invisible to quite a few players , they will still be able to use whatever powers require them to be stealthy , and other players will now actually benefit (somewhat) from trying to be stealthy.

im not saying everyone should become a stalker , but that right now hitting the stealth cap for non Stalk/Soa is a joke..

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what yorue suggesting is that SoAs are going to be unhappy that normal ATs are getting the same stealth cap as them ? ...

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, because they're partly built around having Hidden status. No other AT with the exception of Stalkers depends on Hidden status for part of their inherent.

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im not saying everyone should become a stalker , but that right now hitting the stealth cap for non Stalk/Soa is a joke..

[/ QUOTE ]Simply raising the cap won't fix the joke. The joke is the entire system is flimsy.

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Everyone can build around +perc but not everyone can build around stealth then .. Ok ...

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You can build around stealth. And your suggestion wouldn't change that, you'd still be seen likely just as often.

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You can build around stealth. And your suggestion wouldn't change that, you'd still be seen likely just as often.

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Can I build around stealth and be unseen by people that have but ONE +perc source ? >.>

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You can build around stealth. And your suggestion wouldn't change that, you'd still be seen likely just as often.

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Can I build around stealth and be unseen by people that have but ONE +perc source ? >.>

[/ QUOTE ]Why should ONE source of full stealth beat ONE source of full perception? One should counter the other.

And again, you can't ignore the SoA or Stalkers, raising the other ATs will impact the SoA at the very least which 2 of the 4 branches are built around stealth (unlike the other ATs where Stealth does nothing but stealth).

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I think either you don't understand me or I don't understand you :S

Stealth + stealth IO can be countered by having one source of perception
That's 2 sources of stealth being beat by one source of perception .

And SoAs and stalkers have placate which is what puts them back in stealth after attacking , these two ATs will still be invisible to everyone that can't see them now , only that other ATs that have built around stealth can now be stealthier too.

So SoA and stalkers attacks are not being affected , neither is their defense
Sorry if I'm thick :S
Just need a little more information , please don't be mad :S

Pre thanks

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QR

I endorse everything KitsuneKnight has been saying.

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"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator

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You can build around stealth. And your suggestion wouldn't change that, you'd still be seen likely just as often.

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Can I build around stealth and be unseen by people that have but ONE +perc source ? >.>

[/ QUOTE ]Why should ONE source of full stealth beat ONE source of full perception? One should counter the other.

And again, you can't ignore the SoA or Stalkers, raising the other ATs will impact the SoA at the very least which 2 of the 4 branches are built around stealth (unlike the other ATs where Stealth does nothing but stealth).

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KitsuneKnight is 100% correct.


I don't think the whole zone needs to be running around at increadible levels of stealth. Any AT can achieve decent levels of stealth, for which opposing AT's would have to counter (or not see them at all). But they don't need to have SoA levels of stealth at all.

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