1. Castle doesn't give a [censored] about PvP. (Sadly.)
2. By the time he changes it, it'd cost us another year. (Yup, they're still slow though they are faster than how they were before. PLUS they're way damn too busy, working on CoX going Rogue.)
3. DAMMIT! GIVE MY UBBER SPINES BACK! (T_T)
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For the last year and a half I have mainly played spine/wp in Sirens and she is an alt I feel most comfortable playing now.
However, over the last few months I feel I am now being forced to 'hang up spines' due the the increasing amount of nerfs and the changes to damage that Spines has when in PVP. I find it ironic that if I want to deal any real damage, I have to use a tier 1 pool power from Speed or Kick from Fighting pool. I will not do this out of principle.
I would like to ask Castle how he can justify they low amount of damage thats Spine does now and considering 'Doms' even with their tier 1 powers can out damage a Spines tier 8?
I'm not asking for a massive increase to Spines, but just to have the PVE damage in PVP would be good enough for many spine users and many of those who have been forced into using FOTM alts, just do some damage.
Castle, it is really sad when you're forcing spine users into temps and power pools to do some decent damage. Care to explain why please?
Thanks,
[/ QUOTE ]
That is what you get when you shoehorn in PVP four issues after release have dad mechanics for pvp because you never designed it ground up for it.
Then you try to fix it with nerfs and ignore all feedback in beta testing because you think this will get casual players to play
Yet you make it worse when a pool power attack is better than you entire primary yep that helps out casual players.
That is why it is and will always be LOL COX PVP
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
From my non-PvPer perspective, having a completely different set of rules for PvP makes me even less likely to try it out. I don't know if it makes it more casual friendly or not, but the very idea that my character will function completely differently in PvP is a point against it in my book. So if it was done to entice non-PvPers into PvP, my guess (having absolutely no data) is that it was a failure. Same with the PvP IOs, which appear (again with absolutely no data to back this up) to have done nothing but encourage PvP farming rather than actual PvP.
I can't believe I'm complaining about changes that don't even affect me, but yeah. Even as a complete outsider, it sounds like it's taken an already poor add on feature and made it worse. Hopefully I'm wrong, because I think the PvP community deserves better than they seem to have gotten in this game and in the recent changes.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
[ QUOTE ]
From my non-PvPer perspective, having a completely different set of rules for PvP makes me even less likely to try it out. I don't know if it makes it more casual friendly or not, but the very idea that my character will function completely differently in PvP is a point against it in my book. So if it was done to entice non-PvPers into PvP, my guess (having absolutely no data) is that it was a failure. Same with the PvP IOs, which appear (again with absolutely no data to back this up) to have done nothing but encourage PvP farming rather than actual PvP.
I can't believe I'm complaining about changes that don't even affect me, but yeah. Even as a complete outsider, it sounds like it's taken an already poor add on feature and made it worse. Hopefully I'm wrong, because I think the PvP community deserves better than they seem to have gotten in this game and in the recent changes.
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I have the exact same complaint, and its sad that they didn't see or use the second build to allow for a PvP build with the "old rules."
Its even sadder that these complaints have fallen on deaf ears.
I was so looking forward to secondary build for my Spines/WP for PvP.
But I won't under a totally new set of rules that flattens out the curve for beginners.
I want to become an expert, I don't want to have the playing field borked so noobs (which I would be!) can take on experts.
I want to learn.
Take off the shackles.
Set my PvP freeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!
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From my non-PvPer perspective, having a completely different set of rules for PvP makes me even less likely to try it out. I don't know if it makes it more casual friendly or not, but the very idea that my character will function completely differently in PvP is a point against it in my book. So if it was done to entice non-PvPers into PvP, my guess (having absolutely no data) is that it was a failure. Same with the PvP IOs, which appear (again with absolutely no data to back this up) to have done nothing but encourage PvP farming rather than actual PvP.
I can't believe I'm complaining about changes that don't even affect me, but yeah. Even as a complete outsider, it sounds like it's taken an already poor add on feature and made it worse. Hopefully I'm wrong, because I think the PvP community deserves better than they seem to have gotten in this game and in the recent changes.
[/ QUOTE ]
They basically shut off their brains and reverted to something Stateman claimed a loooooong time ago. Basically, that players don't care about numbers at all.
That is how new pvp is designed. You go in and if you completely turn off all existing knowledge of how things should be and just play it is actually kind of newbie friendly. Or least a bit more than i12.
However, that makes a mightly large assumption that people won't realize things are completely different and that some of their best pve attacks are now their worst pvp attacks. So in the end if said newbie has even a tiny bit of existing knowledge new pvp becomes MORE unfriendly than in early issues.
I have no idea what they were thinking as it goes in the exact opposite direction that the rest of the game has been moving in with more and more transparency:
in game #'s
CoD
mid's
Heck I think there are like five players that actually have a working knowledge of how Diminished returns will affect different powers/effects.
But see sig 
I find it hilarious because in the engineering world you are paid to design a product and if that product doesn't meet the standards of the client, you're either not paid or fired. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the case in the gaming world.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
It's a very strange environment and I think it is fueled by two major things.
1. Our need for instant gratification. Consumers scream to have it "NAO" and publishers put very tight schedules on development teams that push the envelope.
2. Most programmers are pretty lazy. You don't need excessive education to be a programmer and many "veteran" programmers likely have the minimal credentials and just worked into the position. This isn't unlike many industries, I just think that inherently sitting on a computer + playing games attracts on average a less motivated worker.
(If you are a programmer please don't get butt hurt. I won't get upset if you tell me Marketers are generally shills with zero education and just fell into the job that was never their goal. That doesn't apply to me in the least, but it doesn't mean it isn't true across the industry)
Must have it NOW + people looking for the easiest, least involving solutions is a bad recipe. It shows across the entire gaming industry and this game is certainly no exception.
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From my non-PvPer perspective, having a completely different set of rules for PvP makes me even less likely to try it out. I don't know if it makes it more casual friendly or not, but the very idea that my character will function completely differently in PvP is a point against it in my book. So if it was done to entice non-PvPers into PvP, my guess (having absolutely no data) is that it was a failure. Same with the PvP IOs, which appear (again with absolutely no data to back this up) to have done nothing but encourage PvP farming rather than actual PvP.
I can't believe I'm complaining about changes that don't even affect me, but yeah. Even as a complete outsider, it sounds like it's taken an already poor add on feature and made it worse. Hopefully I'm wrong, because I think the PvP community deserves better than they seem to have gotten in this game and in the recent changes.
[/ QUOTE ]
They basically shut off their brains and reverted to something Stateman claimed a loooooong time ago. Basically, that players don't care about numbers at all.
That is how new pvp is designed. You go in and if you completely turn off all existing knowledge of how things should be and just play it is actually kind of newbie friendly. Or least a bit more than i12.
However, that makes a mightly large assumption that people won't realize things are completely different and that some of their best pve attacks are now their worst pvp attacks. So in the end if said newbie has even a tiny bit of existing knowledge new pvp becomes MORE unfriendly than in early issues.
I have no idea what they were thinking as it goes in the exact opposite direction that the rest of the game has been moving in with more and more transparency:
in game #'s
CoD
mid's
Heck I think there are like five players that actually have a working knowledge of how Diminished returns will affect different powers/effects.
But see sig
[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with every part of your post. I don't think I am a newbie, however I don't generally figure to well when it comes to stats and IO's, but I do notice a big difference to how my character behaves in PVP compared to PVE.
If the developers want to attract new players to PVP, I seriously think they have done everything within their powers to actually put new people off and now they have resorted to bribing people with the new PVP IO's in order to bring them in and keep them. I think that will only work for so long.
I cannot for the life of me remember how many times I have had to explain to new comers when they ask 'Why are my powers all different?' and this will continue to this game goes under (Which I fear might not be that far away now).
I know that Castle hates Spines, he has more or less said that he wants to totally change the AT, but I think he remember the outcry there was the last time. Maybe not so much now as most of the old school have gone, so maybe he is judging the changes with PVP, as to how far he can go with PVE in this matter? I guess we will wait and see.
But, it looks like this girl will be 'hanging up her spine/wp' that I have worked on and had so much fun with over the last two years. I think there is only so many respecs and adapting a person can do before they realize it is a lost cause.
Thanks,
But see that is the thing they haven't encourage PvPing at all with the new enhancements, all they have done is encourage arena farming. That's it.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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But see that is the thing they haven't encourage PvPing at all with the new enhancements, all they have done is encourage arena farming. That's it.
[/ QUOTE ]
As should have been obvious ahead of time. It's almost like they're admitting that PvP sucks so bad that they have to bribe people into playing against their will. But even that didn't work, because the devs have never heard of the concept of perverse incentives.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
[ QUOTE ]
From my non-PvPer perspective, having a completely different set of rules for PvP makes me even less likely to try it out. I don't know if it makes it more casual friendly or not, but the very idea that my character will function completely differently in PvP is a point against it in my book. So if it was done to entice non-PvPers into PvP, my guess (having absolutely no data) is that it was a failure. Same with the PvP IOs, which appear (again with absolutely no data to back this up) to have done nothing but encourage PvP farming rather than actual PvP.
I can't believe I'm complaining about changes that don't even affect me, but yeah. Even as a complete outsider, it sounds like it's taken an already poor add on feature and made it worse. Hopefully I'm wrong, because I think the PvP community deserves better than they seem to have gotten in this game and in the recent changes.
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Agree 100%.
Spines in particular is nonsensical, since Barb Swipe becomes the premier power of the set under PvP rules. And for PvE, that power is garbage.
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But see that is the thing they haven't encourage PvPing at all with the new enhancements, all they have done is encourage arena farming. That's it.
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I posted some time ago about how to make pvp IO's for pvp'ers achieved through pvp activities.
Basically up the drop rate enormously, increase cool down timer to 20 minute, and bind them to the toon that gets it so it can't be sold/traded to any other pc (only sold through stores, or cashed in for 2-5 merits).
The merit exchange continues to reward people for earning pvp IO's once they have slotted the toon and ensures drops that aren't useful to that particular toon still have value.
That way if you want pvp IO's you HAVE to pvp to get them. The longer cooldown timer and higher drop rate would mean that arena farm ~= actual pvp activities in terms of drop rates.
The way they are set up now does nothing, I repeat nothing to encourage pvp. The rarity just ensures players farm for them and make heaps from the process.
That said, a reward system is not mutually exclusive from old pvp. So any increase in popularity due to them is inadmissible as evidence that "new" pvp is better.
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2. Most programmers are pretty lazy. You don't need excessive education to be a programmer and many "veteran" programmers likely have the minimal credentials and just worked into the position. This isn't unlike many industries, I just think that inherently sitting on a computer + playing games attracts on average a less motivated worker.
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I'm not personally offended by this. Just needed to pipe up about it as a programmer.
Most programmers are, indeed, kinda lazy individuals. We don't like putting a huge amount of effort into anything unless it'll have equivalent returns.
That's exactly what makes us well suited to our jobs. Because computers have limited resources our primary focus is on efficiency. We chase the biggest reward for the least amount of work because our primary tools (Computers) would be running at a snail's pace if we didn't.
It's what some of us call tactical laziness and it applies to most aspects of our jobs. We'll comb through a program looking for a few lines of code we've used before rather than rewriting it simply because it's less of a strain on us. While it may seem frustrating to outsiders, it'd be extremely difficult to do what we do without that mindset.
Like I said, I wasn't personally offended by your comments. I just wanted to bring some insight to your views.
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But see that is the thing they haven't encourage PvPing at all with the new enhancements, all they have done is encourage arena farming. That's it.
[/ QUOTE ]
As should have been obvious ahead of time. It's almost like they're admitting that PvP sucks so bad that they have to bribe people into playing against their will. But even that didn't work, because the devs have never heard of the concept of perverse incentives.
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That is what I do not understand, if there are a metric ton of people complaining, recommending, etc... that PvP 2.0 is terrible and the results are blatantly obvious then shouldn't everything be reverted to how it was until a better solution can be found?
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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But see that is the thing they haven't encourage PvPing at all with the new enhancements, all they have done is encourage arena farming. That's it.
[/ QUOTE ]
As should have been obvious ahead of time. It's almost like they're admitting that PvP sucks so bad that they have to bribe people into playing against their will. But even that didn't work, because the devs have never heard of the concept of perverse incentives.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is what I do not understand, if there are a metric ton of people complaining, recommending, etc... that PvP 2.0 is terrible and the results are blatantly obvious then shouldn't everything be reverted to how it was until a better solution can be found?
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I would so rush right into PvP if they did that.
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But see that is the thing they haven't encourage PvPing at all with the new enhancements, all they have done is encourage arena farming. That's it.
[/ QUOTE ]
As should have been obvious ahead of time. It's almost like they're admitting that PvP sucks so bad that they have to bribe people into playing against their will. But even that didn't work, because the devs have never heard of the concept of perverse incentives.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is what I do not understand, if there are a metric ton of people complaining, recommending, etc... that PvP 2.0 is terrible and the results are blatantly obvious then shouldn't everything be reverted to how it was until a better solution can be found?
[/ QUOTE ]
Remember these words:
We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom
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From my non-PvPer perspective, having a completely different set of rules for PvP makes me even less likely to try it out. I don't know if it makes it more casual friendly or not, but the very idea that my character will function completely differently in PvP is a point against it in my book. So if it was done to entice non-PvPers into PvP, my guess (having absolutely no data) is that it was a failure. Same with the PvP IOs, which appear (again with absolutely no data to back this up) to have done nothing but encourage PvP farming rather than actual PvP.
I can't believe I'm complaining about changes that don't even affect me, but yeah. Even as a complete outsider, it sounds like it's taken an already poor add on feature and made it worse. Hopefully I'm wrong, because I think the PvP community deserves better than they seem to have gotten in this game and in the recent changes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here I confess.
As much as I love you, Werner, I really want YOU to become one of the devs.
You pointed that really correctly/reasonably.
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But see that is the thing they haven't encourage PvPing at all with the new enhancements, all they have done is encourage arena farming. That's it.
[/ QUOTE ]
As should have been obvious ahead of time. It's almost like they're admitting that PvP sucks so bad that they have to bribe people into playing against their will. But even that didn't work, because the devs have never heard of the concept of perverse incentives.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is what I do not understand, if there are a metric ton of people complaining, recommending, etc... that PvP 2.0 is terrible and the results are blatantly obvious then shouldn't everything be reverted to how it was until a better solution can be found?
[/ QUOTE ]
An interesting note here is that PvP was redesigned for... PvP rewards (Cathedral of Pain, base raids, and rewards in general). The rewards added in I13 and I14 might've brought a few new people in just on the merit of being rewarded for PvPing, but the complete reworking of the system probably drove away more potential PvPers than rewards brought in.
Apparently the people that were positive about the I13 PvP revamp outnumbered the people that were negative about it by a more-than 2:1 margin. I don't think I'm too far off the mark to say that most of the people that were praising it were the ones who did not PvP much if at all under the old rules, and still aren't PvPing. If everyone that said they liked the new PvP was actually PvPing, the zones would have more population than they did prior to I13 (because the people that like the system would've been more than enough to replace those that left due to the changes).
The developers have stated that they're happy with the way PvP is working now - from their viewpoint the system is now "balanced" as well as they can get it. I am under no illusion that they're happy with the actual PvP population, however. What the developers consider to be fun and balanced and what the players consider to be fun and balanced are two very different beasts, and I've been trying to point that out for quite some time. I don't think it will make any difference - after all, you can't change options on-the-fly in zones as you can in the arena. Once a "no base resistances" option is added to the arena options, I doubt I'll be spending much time, if any, in zones.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
For the last year and a half I have mainly played spine/wp in Sirens and she is an alt I feel most comfortable playing now.
However, over the last few months I feel I am now being forced to 'hang up spines' due the the increasing amount of nerfs and the changes to damage that Spines has when in PVP. I find it ironic that if I want to deal any real damage, I have to use a tier 1 pool power from Speed or Kick from Fighting pool. I will not do this out of principle.
I would like to ask Castle how he can justify they low amount of damage thats Spine does now and considering 'Doms' even with their tier 1 powers can out damage a Spines tier 8?
I'm not asking for a massive increase to Spines, but just to have the PVE damage in PVP would be good enough for many spine users and many of those who have been forced into using FOTM alts, just do some damage.
Castle, it is really sad when you're forcing spine users into temps and power pools to do some decent damage. Care to explain why please?
Thanks,
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You just described exactly how I feel about i13 PvP.
And I perfectly agree with your post.
My problem being it's not only with Spines/ : it's the same with every melee powerset. You're forced into Pool attacks and that's utterly ridiculous. You people cant believe it, heh ? Just check your Mids on PvP mode, take any melee powerset, even with the longest animations... and see how AS/Kick/Boxing deal much more dmg with lower activation times. this is total crap !
However I see many ppl in the zone still using their primary attacks, and not knowing about this issue. So sad that the only ppl who keep playing this ridiculous system are the ones who dont know how it works. In the best case scenario, they just know that longer animation time equals more dmg. But look at this example :
Level 50 Fire Scrapper, base dmg in PvP, without any IO, SO, or sets :
- Fire Sword : 131
- Incinerate : 141
- Greater Firesword : 228 (2.33 sec activation)
- Air Sup : 252 (1.5 sec)
- Kick : 282 (1.83 sec)
- Flurry : 417 (3.07 sec)
I'd really like an answer about that specific pvp issue too (not even talking about DRs, resistance normalization which are other large problems too...).
Why are we supposed to rebuild completely to build up, air sup, kick, flurry and ignore our primary ? Isnt it the total opposite to what this game is supposed to bring to the table : aka power choices and customization ?
So why did you kill the PvP, for us, players who like to build a toon and invest time to think about our power choices ?
Dont you devs feel bad that most of your serious PvP playerbase left, while the other part of the game community who took some time to look into the new system (I'm in this category) feels like it's a total waste ?
My 2 cents, but I'll keep repeating it as long as I can, mostly because I love this game and I think it deserves a much better PvP !!
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From my non-PvPer perspective, having a completely different set of rules for PvP makes me even less likely to try it out. I don't know if it makes it more casual friendly or not, but the very idea that my character will function completely differently in PvP is a point against it in my book. So if it was done to entice non-PvPers into PvP, my guess (having absolutely no data) is that it was a failure. Same with the PvP IOs, which appear (again with absolutely no data to back this up) to have done nothing but encourage PvP farming rather than actual PvP.
I can't believe I'm complaining about changes that don't even affect me, but yeah. Even as a complete outsider, it sounds like it's taken an already poor add on feature and made it worse. Hopefully I'm wrong, because I think the PvP community deserves better than they seem to have gotten in this game and in the recent changes.
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Well said. And you dont even know how bad this new system is... Just read my example in the post above.
Personnally, I dont mind taking some time to understand a totally new system, even if I think like you it's totally counter-intuitive and the opposite of what should be done to attract PvE players to the PvP zone.
But when you see the total absurdity they created... well, I'm speechless...
I really have no clue understanding how such a thing could ever go live... really. I do believe the devs are clever people (otherwise we wouldnt have such a great PvE game). I do believe they made a mistake and they gonna fix it in one way (to revert back) or another. It cant be otherwise...
Because as you said : this game deserves better ! Much better !
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I do believe the devs are clever people
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Seriously?
Probably yes, since I agree with
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I do believe the devs are clever people
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except for those farm creating Issues.
But really...
They're not clever/smart/brilliant/whatsoever in PvP.
That's what I can tell others for sure from what I see in PvP zones now.
For the last year and a half I have mainly played spine/wp in Sirens and she is an alt I feel most comfortable playing now.
However, over the last few months I feel I am now being forced to 'hang up spines' due the the increasing amount of nerfs and the changes to damage that Spines has when in PVP. I find it ironic that if I want to deal any real damage, I have to use a tier 1 pool power from Speed or Kick from Fighting pool. I will not do this out of principle.
I would like to ask Castle how he can justify they low amount of damage thats Spine does now and considering 'Doms' even with their tier 1 powers can out damage a Spines tier 8?
I'm not asking for a massive increase to Spines, but just to have the PVE damage in PVP would be good enough for many spine users and many of those who have been forced into using FOTM alts, just do some damage.
Castle, it is really sad when you're forcing spine users into temps and power pools to do some decent damage. Care to explain why please?
Thanks,