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The imps fighting +6 opponents can really change affairs.
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That is certainly correct. Happens to you a lot solo, huh? If you often solo against +5's to you and +6's to the imps, I can see why you would like singularity better. This is, of course, a really common solo circumstance isn't it?
Come on here, you are just throwing up poor little defenseless fishies as arguments at this point. Give up already.
Solo, fire/ brings more damage in the form of hot feet and the imps, and offers comparable control to gravity/.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
I've played Gravity to 50 on a Controller and really loved the set to death. Propel is thematically cool, Wormhole is unique compared to the other sets' soft control options, and Singularity is a great pet.
But... well, I'd have to agree with the posters who've said that it's mediocre in comparison to the other sets - long animation times, a long wait for your first real soft control option, etc.. I think this is especially true for Dominators, who don't really need a ranged attack in their primary, no matter how cool it is. I liked it on my Controller because at the higher levels, it was a fire-and-forget set. I had it paired with Kinetics, so I basically just played like a Defender and concentrated on using my Kin powers effectively, throwing out area controls and stacking holds on bosses as needed. It suited my playstyle for that character.
But I couldn't see playing it on a Dom. Propel would be largely useless unless I felt like seeing my character throw a Forklift. Why bother when I have a secondary devoted to damage? Wormhole and Singularity would still be cool and good, I suppose. I could see Gravity being a decent choice for the solo player who liked to rely on Singy to lock stuff down while they focused on attacks and damage, too. But ultimately, in my opinion, it's not a set that's translated particularly well across the ATs and it could probably stand to be looked at to bring it more in line with the other sets.
But honestly, it still works. Mediocre doesn't mean non-functional. It serves its purpose as a control set. If concept is more important to you than being the best Dom out there, then go for it.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
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Come on here, you are just throwing up poor little defenseless fishies as arguments at this point. Give up already.
[/ QUOTE ]How do you solo?
Explain Gravity/?
Here's 2 cents and a few unique qualities about Grav/ that I like and think sometimes get overlooked when discussing the set.
I think Grav/ is tricky to work with because it is Designed to be a damage heavy primary, not a control heavy primary, and what the set lacks in control it compensates with damage and mitigation. Mind/ is a similar design in that it also excludes it's ST hold from the initial two picks, almost suggestting that the sets are capable without them... only Mind/ compensates with more control. This is where a miconception can start to occur for grav/ players, especially those who have played other control primaries.
Overlooking this unique design of Grav/ often leads to the mistake of skipping many of the powers that make grav/ work and perform equal to any other set or better. Even those who do realize the design of grav/ often argue that such a design is unnecessary or unwanted due to a secondary being full of attacks... They may fail to see however that by skipping the attacks of the set they are also giving up effective mitigation, which is what starts to give Grav/ that "lack of early control" feel.
It shouldn't be surprising that Grav/'s ST and AoE Immobilize powers are the only two that don't -KB foes. There's a ST 100% KU and a 100% KB power right in between the two picks, and in combination offer countless variations of "hard" mitigation in which your opponents cannot fight back due to being in the air or out of range. All the while damaging these same foes means less to no need for as much control. The ST hold could be considered that power you use on those you haven't started flip flopping yet... or You can see it as an "off" switch to KB when needed.
Another unique quirk about Grav/ that many are often turned off by is it's level 12 AoE power. Instead of a standard AoE soft sontrol power like flashfire, or ice slick that is available every spawn, Grav/ is given a situational AoE hard control power. One that calls for an absolute time-out on foes by phasing them out and rendering them un-affectable. A power that is Mag-enhancable and also available every spawn. Gravity's Dimension shift power is probably the most mis-used power in the game due to ammount teammates it has pissed off, but one shouldn't allow it's reputation of misuse to define the power itself. It's usage solo versus teamed vary greatly, but in either case it can prove invaluble when used right... whether taking out the ambush when the AV has just 10%hp left... or calling a timeout so teammate can wakie and regroup when split... to the classic "I thought you all were gonna aggro that mob!" scenaro. D-shift never pisses off the player you save from debt. I get "cool, thanks" and "awesome, I was map serving... thx" and "how long?... resting real quick." It does exactly what its designed to do very well... however it unfortunately does not come with "how to use" instructions, and you will rarely come across that info here on the forums. I'd be happy to offer, but I digress.
When it comes to GDF and Wormhole, Grav/ offers another very unique combination of control and some serious mitigation. As the immobiilzes are unique in that they offer no -KB effect, Grav/'s AoE hold is the only ranged hold with -KB. This offers a benefit to any alpha powers that have that undesired KB effect when on teams like some nukes, patches, AoE attacks... and even wormhole. Wormhole is often seen as as AoE stun power equally matched to all other AoE stuns given at level 12. I think its a mistake to look at it that way. Wormhole is an extreme mitigation tool as well as an AoE stun. One should focus on both aspects as often as possible... and if the KB timng gets too difficult to deal with, one can use GDF before wormholing a group and elimnate the KB. The effect of this combination is certain to wow just about anyone on your team if done as an alpha... for it creates a single-filed line of floating mobs, or a tight little ball of mobs when put in a corner... either way is fine have fun with it, but don't foget to bring your cone attacks!
I'd speak on Singy but it's rep is solid already... everything said about it is true. 
awesome
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Come on here, you are just throwing up poor little defenseless fishies as arguments at this point. Give up already.
[/ QUOTE ]How do you solo?
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I thought you were making the really ridiculous claim of fighting things 5 levels higher than you (and maybe even bosses 5 levels higher than you in some silly AE/NA exploit.) Now I realize you were just talking about bosses 3 levels higher than you. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
This latter is still a case where the imps will be better IMO, though it is a closer race. Hot feet (with its damage and slow) still probably wins the race for fire here though.
As for how I solo, it varies of course. How you solo early in a toons life differs from how you solo later. Even when soloing later, are you merit farming (where you probably just want everything set to lowest so you can get merits as quickly as possible) or trying to get infamy (trickier as you might have a variety of difficulty settings here) or trying for purple sets?
I think it is pretty clear though that in most of the situations, fire/ is going to be a better solo bet than gravity/.
This is not to say that gravity won't be entertaining and quirky and fun though, and also solo all of the primaries are much closer to each other.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
[/ QUOTE ]Tis entirely okay. And the thing is, I don't think I can comment too clearly on how normal people solo.
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My individual experience isn't necessarily a useful data point. Neither is yours, to be frank.
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Yes, but I think it would be relatively easy (where is Starsman when you need him ?) to show objectively that fire/ is a faster solo set than gravity/. I am surprised you are even arguing the point, to be honest, as you seem fairly level-headed in most of your other posts.
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Gravity has some Ranged ST attacks but they are only useful to Doms with secondaries that lack ranged attacks and want to stick to range. Lift is an OK attack but no better than any optimized dom would use unless they wanted to go purely ranged.
Gravity's secondary effect is -speed, not -recharge. This means next to nothing as you already can immob in st or AoE.
Fire's secondary effect is bonus damage, that.... deals more damage. Ironically, Fire's ST immob is a better attack than Lift if you can get over the DoT aspect due to speed and bonus damage.
At high enough levels, Imp do indeed a lot of damage. It matters little if they focus on one foe or not as long as they don't fall asleep on the job. Before the Dom buff, my imps would do more damage than I would out of Domination.
I use Flashfire quite often even while soloing, but Wormhole is roughly equivalent. Only Wormhole is a bit less effective due to the drastically smaller radius. Would be nice if it did more damage to compensate. I don't think the positioning is enough compensation. Not to mention Wormhole comes so late... it would be nice if it got switched with Dimension Shift in order, but this is not a "buff Grav" thread.
Point is: I personally think Fire is a better damage set IF you feel you must fall back on your primary to do damage. Then again, Plant is even better than either (until you get pets.) However, other than pets, doms rarely need to fall into their primary for damage, again: unless they want to stick to range and have a range-light secondary.
I'm not saying that Gravity isn't worse off than some other set or doesn't need some work, but one of my favorite things about Wormhole is positioning the exit on the wall or ceiling. Dropping the foes from the sky does seem to cut back the spread of knockback, and it's just cool.
Conceptually speaking, I think Gravity is the best Set. Propel and Wormhole are both just cool to watch. It is unfortunate that the functionality of the set is not at the same level as its coolness factor. (Or maybe that's intentional 
)
Wormhole is indeed a darn fun power an the reason I rolled my Grav/Energy (besides having a fun concept for her.)
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Every single other set has an "up every fight" power that doesn't piss teams off with the knockback, unlike wormhole:
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Wormhole is for herding, not controlling.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
Grav is a set that's well suited to operating at range. It's best t single target damage and control, having the weakest AOE control choices of any Dominator primary. It's also a set that's fairly late blooming, with the full scope of control powers only becoming available at level 28 or beyond.
1) Lift: Post i15, this power is a powerhouse. 100% knockup, fast animation, decent recharge and solid damage. While it's only soft control, bosses and even most EBs are vulnerable to it. You can use it on hard to control enemies like Fortunata Seers and Night Widows, foes that other control sets might have difficulty handling. On my Grav/NRG dom, I can lift a Night Widow and 2 shot her with Bone Smasher and Total focus before she'll finish standing up.
2) Gravity Distortion. Your single target hold, a staple of every control set, and probably the most important power you'll ever have. Because Gravity control is weak, getting the most from this power is all the more important. I've got mine slotted with 4 devastation and 2 Lockdown. This gives it solid damage, decent damage and fast recharge, all critical for stacking mag on hard to handle bosses and EBs. And 6% in damage set bonus from just one power.
3) Crushing Field. Ah, the oft maligned AOE immobilize. The 'suicide button' reviled by most players. Let me tell you something about crushing field: It's the best control power of any AT, Red or Blue side. I have used crushing field to beat back unstoppable hordes of enemies that have broken the rest of my team. What turns the suicide button into the victory button? Terrain. If you can use a simple corner or obstacle to hide behind, you can immobilize a huge mob and tackle them piecemeal. With regular spamming, you can easily hold 30 to 40 enemies indefinitely, and if you slot damage procs into CF, you can turn it into a respectable damage power to boot. AOE immobilizes aren't just for breaking up ambushes. Your teammates love them too. Got a Mastermind on your team who likes to plan burn patches? They'll LOVE CF. Got an earth or ice Dom who wants to bounce enemies with Earthquake or Ice Slick? No problem, CF doesn't grant Knockback protection. Mine is slotted with 5 Positron's Blast and 1 impeded swiftness, chance for smashing. That's two procs for damage plus 6.25% global recharge. Pure win.
4) Gravity Distortion Field. It's the oh sh*t button. Every control primary has one, Grav's is right up with Mind and Plant in that they can be used at 80 yard range. It does no damage, so this is where you slap your Unbreakable Constraint for 10% global recharge.
5) Wormhole. Love it or hate it, Wormhole is the most set-defining power for Gravity. I'm not going to lie here. Wormhole needs a buff, specifically in terms of radius. It's got a 16 person target cap but I defy anyone to actually fit 16 enemies in a circle that tiny. Other criticisms of the power, however, are full of cr@p. Anyone who can't abide knockback in a super-villain game needs a time-out to think about their attitude, and while you often CAN throw enemies to the other end of the planet with Wormhole, you don't HAVE TO. In fact, you can throw them into a corner, or off a cliff, or right back onto the tank. You can take a crowd of irritating Nemesis Riflemen and toss them under your Brute for a quick curbstomping. Solo, Wormhole combines well with Total Focus to lay a mag 6 stun on enemy bosses before they can react. Great for dealing with tough enemies like Carnie Illusionists. Wormhole is flexible, powerful and fun, with only one real drawback the area of effect.
6) Singularity. Here's the reason why Grav is the king of single target control. Singy is part tank and part controller, but mostly he's there to stack mag on those irritating purple triangles that would otherwise send you to the hurt-locker. He's the perfect companion for a flying Dominator, because unlike other horrible pets, he'll never get you in more trouble. He won't run off and start fights with new groups, he won't go chasing runners to the end of creation, because anyone he's fighting can't run. His repel bubble is a tiny zone of sanctuary that you or your teammates can use for cover when things start to look shakey.
As for the powers I didn't mention: Don't take em. Beef up on your secondary, or get patron powers, or pool choices. Take leadership to boost your team's accuracy and damage. Take your patron armor to suck up the odd stray blast from uncontrolled enemies.
Some last thoughts about Gravity. Grav is a great set for people who like to do a good job without making a big fuss. Your animations are subtle, so often no one will notice that the enemy they're fighting has turned into a pinata. You've got lots of options usable from afar, so there's little reason to go mixing it up with the brutes and stalkers. Just hover above the battlefield, identify threats and neutralize them. Quickly, quietly, and efficiently.
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Every single other set has an "up every fight" power that doesn't piss teams off with the knockback, unlike wormhole:
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Wormhole is for herding, not controlling.
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Also, pissing teams off is never a power's fault... it's the fault of the player using the power.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Every single other set has an "up every fight" power that doesn't piss teams off with the knockback, unlike wormhole:
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Wormhole is for herding, not controlling.
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Also, pissing teams off is never a power's fault... it's the fault of the player using the power.
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No, I think the power has something to do with it...
For instance. Let me chunk Fire Ball into a crowd. Then chunk Explosive Blast into a crowd. Same person, same skill, different effect. Powers like Explosive Blast must be contained while providing no true benefit, and because of this, they are intrinsically inferior.
Wormhole gets around this because you can choose to place the critters back in their original positions (roughly) by putting the reticle a little more towards you, but its KB is still a little annoying.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
You lost me when you said they were the same skill...
They serve a common purpose in that they both deal AoE damage and help to defeat groups, but their purpose is clearly defined by their other effects.
Fire ball is designed to deal more damage while foes remian aggored and able to retaliate, while explosive blast has the added bonus of mitigaton by reducing aggro considerably for a couple of seconds via knockback.
Your definition of inferior might be based on putting damage and damage only on the scale.
Wormhole is a mitigation tool as much as it is an AoE stun. using it for only stun, and trying only to keep them where they currently stand, are two of the main reason why the power comes across as subpar.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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After you get Wormhole and Singy, it's all gravy and it becomes one of the best control sets in the game.
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Erm, no.
After Wormhole and Singy, the set is merely adequate. It is surpassed in every way by all the other sets.
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I disagree. The set is very good in the late game.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
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Fire ball is designed to deal more damage while foes remian aggored and able to retaliate, while explosive blast has the added bonus of mitigaton by reducing aggro considerably for a couple of seconds via knockback.
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I would argue any mitigation value obtained in a team setting is offset twofold by KB's tendency to scatter critters outside placed-AoE effects and debuff anchors.
Between the two powers, Fire Ball is clearly the superior. Even if one ignores the obvious benefit of damage as a mitigation tool, the scatter effect just has too many ramifications--ones that I didn't even mention above.
As for Wormhole, it's inferior to powers like Stalagmites for the sole and simple reason that Wormherding isn't that desirable an effect. It's fun, interesting, a little useful, and can speed things up a mite, but it's not a worthy trade when it gives up nearly half a normal AoE stun's radius. Like a poster above mentioned, Wormhole has a 16 target cap, but trying to fill it is futile in all but the most extraordinary circumstances.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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Another unique quirk about Grav/ that many are often turned off by is it's level 12 AoE power. Instead of a standard AoE soft sontrol power like flashfire, or ice slick that is available every spawn, Grav/ is given a situational AoE hard control power. One that calls for an absolute time-out on foes by phasing them out and rendering them un-affectable. A power that is Mag-enhancable and also available every spawn. Gravity's Dimension shift power is probably the most mis-used power in the game due to ammount teammates it has pissed off, but one shouldn't allow it's reputation of misuse to define the power itself. It's usage solo versus teamed vary greatly, but in either case it can prove invaluble when used right... whether taking out the ambush when the AV has just 10%hp left... or calling a timeout so teammate can wakie and regroup when split... to the classic "I thought you all were gonna aggro that mob!" scenaro. D-shift never pisses off the player you save from debt.
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You make it sound like situations where intanging enemies are common place enough to justify D-Shift as a solid power selection or comparable to other set's power selections at that level. It's just not true.
It's not new news that mitigation in the form of mass intanging or knockback is the least team friendly for a vairtey of reasons (Scatters aggro, jacks up anchor/placement debuffs, screws up other member's AoE's).
Face it, Gravity is not well designed for Dominators.
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Another unique quirk about Grav/ that many are often turned off by is it's level 12 AoE power. Instead of a standard AoE soft sontrol power like flashfire, or ice slick that is available every spawn, Grav/ is given a situational AoE hard control power. One that calls for an absolute time-out on foes by phasing them out and rendering them un-affectable. A power that is Mag-enhancable and also available every spawn. Gravity's Dimension shift power is probably the most mis-used power in the game due to ammount teammates it has pissed off, but one shouldn't allow it's reputation of misuse to define the power itself. It's usage solo versus teamed vary greatly, but in either case it can prove invaluble when used right... whether taking out the ambush when the AV has just 10%hp left... or calling a timeout so teammate can wakie and regroup when split... to the classic "I thought you all were gonna aggro that mob!" scenaro. D-shift never pisses off the player you save from debt.
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You make it sound like situations where intanging enemies are common place enough to justify D-Shift as a solid power selection or comparable to other set's power selections at that level. It's just not true.
It's not new news that mitigation in the form of mass intanging or knockback is the least team friendly for a vairtey of reasons (Scatters aggro, jacks up anchor/placement debuffs, screws up other member's AoE's).
Face it, Gravity is not well designed for Dominators.
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Comparable to the power selections of other sets at that level?
No, none of those other powers can do what D-shift does... there is no comparison. My intention was to label D-shift as a solid and unique power. A power misused more often than it is not.
The use of D-Shift could be compared to the use of a corr or MM rez power, only it protects a teammate(s) from debt instead of offering a recovery from it. Like I said, when used right your team should be thanking you. It's situational use should be something a Grav/ is highly regarded for, but unfortunately too many will use it incorrectly or skip it... and so another level 16 Grav/ dom falls to the ground watching his/her team wipe thinking if only Grav/ offered some early soft control! (sorry bit of a rant started there)
Many assume that because it is a level 12 pick it should be a spam-able power that offers some soft control and proceed to use it that way. When they realize it is not... they assume that it should be! That's all well and fair but it doesn't make D-shift a bad power because it doesn't fit what they want it to. It does what it's designed to very well.
Once one realizes that they find there are many more situations to use it than these boards will ever admit to. At lower levels its a life saver. At higher levels it's a live saver and pace setter for tougher challenges. Solo... well solo it's enables a Grav/ dom to easily overcome many challenges other sets would have issues with (Boss pets, extreme ambushes) and you get it at level 12!
I' sorry but no player power's effect is intriscally bad for teams. That's just a weird way way we've come to look at things... So unfortunately it creates less education of the proper use of these effects.
I do what I can In-Game... these boards however are a lost cause it seems.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
I tried to respec my Grav/Icy last night and Lift has become a MUST-TAKE power now for Gravity user! Its damage is the same as Ice Blast, even of Damage per Activation. That's amazing for a control power.
Propel's Damage per Activation is beyond pathetic. Lift has 100% knockup so why would you need Propel??
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Please don't feed the knockback trolls. You'll never change their minds, and they'll never change their attitude.
If people (Read Also: Myself) can't use Dimension Shift correctly at level 50, why are we getting it before our AoE Hold?
I'd put DS to the T8 and move GDF and Wormhole up one tier each myself.
My Grav/Psi is still 42. I'll probably finish leveling him now that Psi Assault has been fixed, but I'll say this - Singularity is the only thing in Gravity that keeps me from deleting Altimus.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I'd agree with Dahjee, except I've seen it in play.
I've teamed off and on with a Grav/ Controller, who has this power. Objectively, I know that he uses it in the 'right' way - as an "ACK!" Panic Button, but I've hated it every time he uses it anyway, even knowing that.
This is not because of what the power does, but how the power fails at it.
The main issue is the lack of visible cues. I often waste a lot of time attacking Shifted foes because I can not tell by sight which Mobs have been affected. Depending on my character, I may have fired off an entire attack chain before I realize that my target is Shifted.
I would LOVE to see DS changed into something more intuitive - maybe a 'Superior Intangibility' self toggle, for example - but I'd settle for giving it a very noticeable visual aspect. Paint the effected targets blue or something! Just make it visible enough that it can be quickly noticed, and NOT mistaken for other Gravity powers!
I would also really like it if it did some damage or a Knockdown when the enemies shift back, but that would be gravy. Given a way to tell at a glance which targets are intangible, and I'd say the DS hate would drop considerably.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
I get what you're trying to say Dahjee...that D-Shift has it's uses and performs well in those circumstances. My point however is that for the most part when you're running with a team that's not clinically retarded, those "Oh Sh!@" situations you're describing don't really happen much if at all. While I admire the fact that you're trying to encourage the use of a highly neglected form of control in Intanging, to compare it's usefulness to something that can reliably soft-control EACH spawn just falls short.
You said it yourself in that D-Shift is situational. So, by this very definition it's obvious that when used in the manner you're describing it's in extremely rare circumstances.
Honestly, what do you encounter more...massive overwhelming aggro or constant clustered enemy spawns? I'd put my money on the 2nd.
I'd rather D-Shift be some sort of AoE Knockup power or patch.
*shrugs* 'Solo speed' isn't something you can really show on a chart, though. Fire offers nothing that really speeds up solo speed from what I can see - its controls aren't any more amazing than the alternatives, it lacks any real 'oh-[censored]' buttons that say, Mind does, and the pets die a lot in my experience. On the other hand, consider that I might be talking about soloing on the highest difficulty without insps (purely for example). The imps fighting +6 opponents can really change affairs. Or I could be talking about soloing without IOs. Or... etcetera. Individual experience is pretty meaningless.
For that matter, a chart is also pretty meaningless because they never really take into account real, general play experience from non-expert players. Since I have ten fifties and the typical player may or may not have one, I think I've passed the point where I can treat my own play experience as a meaningfully representative sample.
Also, I'm not so comfortable being told 'I'm surprised you're defending this point because you're otherwise not stupid.' It seems a little like you're trying to weight the argument emotively.
I'm not saying, in this situation 'Gravity is good,' nor am I saying 'Fire is bad.' I'm saying 'Both are unremarkable.'