Jesus...
They play completely different. Do you like debuff toggles? Do you like buffing other players? Can you put up with long attack animations?
...Focus less on the numbers and more on what would be fun to you...
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Does -res have a diminishing return? (As in, there's not much of a noticeable difference between -60% res and -110% res?)
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-Res doesn't diminish. The more you have, the more damage you deal, up to 300% (the maximum -Res you can apply to any target).
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How exactly does -res work? If a mob has 75% damres and you apply 110% -res to it, will the mob's res fall to 0% (making the extra -35% res worthless) or will the mob's res be divided in two for every -100% res applied to it (kind of like the way recharge reduction bonuses work for powers)?
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Resistance can go below 0%, to -300%.
Resistance resists -Resistance.
If your target has 0% Resistance and you apply 80% -Res, then your target now has -80% Resistance and you deal Damage * 1.8.
If your target has 75% Resistance and you apply 110% -Resistance, the target will resist that 110% -Res by 75%, giving a final applied -Res of 27.5%, reducing the resistance of the target to 47.5% and you deal Damage * 0.525.
Because of Resistance resisting Resisteance debuffs, as Luminara explianed, Resistance Debuffs always effectively multiply your base damage by a scalar.
50% Resistance Debuff will make you and your team do 150% of the damage you'd do without the debuff, regardless of the target's initial Resistance numbers.
Actually, don't forget that resistance debuffs effectively 'buff' themselves.
So using Shriek 4 times with Enervating Field running doesn't yield a blank 110% buff, each debuff effectively separately multiplies your damage : 1.3 (EF) * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 - which comes out to about 124% damage increase rather than 110%.
Unresistible Resist Debuffs Buff Resistible Resist Debuffs.
Hoo-ah for Rad/Sonic.
Your cast times aren't accounting for server ticks (arcana time). The ice chain takes 4.36 sec rather than 3.74 that mids states.
I'm not sure how you are figuring you'll quadruple stack shriek. At 300% recharge (purple +rech build) shriek cycles every 1.94 seconds. I can't recall if shriek applies the -res at the beginning of the animation or at the end. I suppose it doesn't really matter though. It gives 5 seconds of debuff. Technically you'll stack three, but with only 0.06 seconds to spare I doubt you'll see more than double stack.
I don't have my sonic chains anymore, but I know a proper one can eb and flow between 4 and 6 stacks of the -res. It will do a lot more damage than just shriek spam. Way more once you start adding procs.
The longer cast of scream appears bad, but the first two ticks of damage apply the -res and the next 8 are self buffed. Very unique attack. As a result it ends up being your highest dpa attack.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, don't forget that resistance debuffs effectively 'buff' themselves.
So using Shriek 4 times with Enervating Field running doesn't yield a blank 110% buff, each debuff effectively separately multiplies your damage : 1.3 (EF) * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 - which comes out to about 124% damage increase rather than 110%.
Unresistible Resist Debuffs Buff Resistible Resist Debuffs.
Hoo-ah for Rad/Sonic.
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I don't recall there being any unresistable -res in pve (and none in a rad/son combo for sure), that was a pvp feature and one that is gone as of i13.
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Actually, don't forget that resistance debuffs effectively 'buff' themselves.
So using Shriek 4 times with Enervating Field running doesn't yield a blank 110% buff, each debuff effectively separately multiplies your damage : 1.3 (EF) * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 - which comes out to about 124% damage increase rather than 110%.
Unresistible Resist Debuffs Buff Resistible Resist Debuffs.
Hoo-ah for Rad/Sonic.
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This is not my understanding of how resistance debuffs work. As I understand it, the effective debuff resistance is (sum of individual debuffs) x (100% - resistance), where "resistance" there is after buffs but before debuffs.
So a target with 0% resistance and the debuffs described above, one 30% and three 20%, would have a total resistance of 0% - (90% x (100% - 0%)) = -90%. The attacker would get +90% damage.
A target with 80% resistance would feel significantly less effect from the debuffs. They would have a total resistance of 80% - (90% x (100% - 80%)) = 80% - (90% x 20%) = 80% - 18% = 62%. The attacker would get -62% damage instead of -80% damage; an effective +18%.
There is some multiplication going on, but not of one debuff by another.
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
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Actually, don't forget that resistance debuffs effectively 'buff' themselves.
So using Shriek 4 times with Enervating Field running doesn't yield a blank 110% buff, each debuff effectively separately multiplies your damage : 1.3 (EF) * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 - which comes out to about 124% damage increase rather than 110%.
Unresistible Resist Debuffs Buff Resistible Resist Debuffs.
Hoo-ah for Rad/Sonic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, soon my brain will hurt trying to understand these statements.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Actually, don't forget that resistance debuffs effectively 'buff' themselves.
So using Shriek 4 times with Enervating Field running doesn't yield a blank 110% buff, each debuff effectively separately multiplies your damage : 1.3 (EF) * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 - which comes out to about 124% damage increase rather than 110%.
Unresistible Resist Debuffs Buff Resistible Resist Debuffs.
Hoo-ah for Rad/Sonic.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not my understanding of how resistance debuffs work. As I understand it, the effective debuff resistance is (sum of individual debuffs) x (100% - resistance), where "resistance" there is after buffs but before debuffs.
So a target with 0% resistance and the debuffs described above, one 30% and three 20%, would have a total resistance of 0% - (90% x (100% - 0%)) = -90%. The attacker would get +90% damage.
A target with 80% resistance would feel significantly less effect from the debuffs. They would have a total resistance of 80% - (90% x (100% - 80%)) = 80% - (90% x 20%) = 80% - 18% = 62%. The attacker would get -62% damage instead of -80% damage; an effective +18%.
There is some multiplication going on, but not of one debuff by another.
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And then, of course, there is the multiplication of damage buffs. Because unlike defense and to-hit, damage and resistance are calculated separately, if you have applied -30% resistance then an 80% damage buff becomes an effective 104% damage buff.
However, I can understand where Dodger got confused. Saying a 20% resistance debuff is misleading, since the debuff percentage is not relative to the current value.
To simplify Yeti's explanation, debuffs work the same way resistance buffs work. If you have a 15% resistance buff and a 30% resistance buff you now have 45% (.15+.3) resistance, not 49.5% (1.15*1.30). However the resistance's resistance to debuffs complicates things...need a moment to think about this.
[edited to remove incorrect information]
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
are you against a Rad/Ice or a Cold/sonic?
I think you could go either way with the blast.
Seems to me Rad would give you more safety vs AV's/GM's because of Radiation Infection and Radiant Aura. Just make sure you have a lot of recovery and end reduction..
Seems like toggle debuffs would free up more time to keep your dps up..
A Cold Dom, having alot of click debuff's, might have less time to devote to dps..(granted, you're not losing THAT much time out of your attack chain)
perma jump is ---> /up 1
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The big overall question I'm asking here (I suppose) is: With these comparisons/numbers in mind for these builds, is a cold/ice just as viable of an AV/GM soloer as rad/sonic?
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didn't really notice this question at first, i thought you were trying to decide on a build (in regards to my post above).
Viable? sure, but still think the Rad would be better
perma jump is ---> /up 1
From my Cold guide, keep in mind this formula assumes you're going to put the min/max caps in their place towards the end. Min is always -300%, max cap varies depending on the foe in some cases it's 100% and in others it's only 90%.
-----------------------------------------
Resistance debuffs are resisted by the total resistance buff of the target. They are also subject to the Purple Patch modifiers. This applies to each individual damage resistance, so you might have the full effect on Fire resist because they have 0% but you might have Lethal resist be 30% and it will shave off 30% of your debuff. Formula for this is below.
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RESISTANCE FORMULA
RES_FINAL = ( RES_BASE + RES_BUFF ) - ( RES_DEBUFF * PURPLE_PATCH * ( 1 - ( RES_BASE + RES_BUFF )) +/- [additional debuff/buffs]
Purple Patch chart
Enemy base resistance values
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Sleet for both defenders and corruptors has the same -30% res debuff and can slot the -20% res Achille's Heel proc for even more fun, so we'll use them in this example calculation. Let's say we're fighting a +4 Ghost Widow and we'll assume we got a lucky proc off of a single instance of sleet. We'll say we're attacking with Negative damage for this calculation as well.
[u]Given values[u]
Purple Patch Modifier: 0.48
Sleet: 0.30
Achilles Heel: 0.20
GW's negative resistance: 0.30
No Res buffs other than base.
RES_FINAL = ( RES BASE + RES BUFF ) - ( RES DEBUFF * PURPLEPATCH * ( 1 - ( RES BASE + RES BUFF ) ) ) - ( RES DEBUFF * PURPLEPATCH * ( 1 - ( RES BASE + RES BUFF ) ) )
RES_FINAL = ( 0.30 + 0.0 ) - ( .30 * 0.48 * ( 1 - ( 0.30 + 0.0 ) ) ) - ( 0.2 * 0.48 * ( 1 - ( 0.30 + 0.0 ) ) )
RES_FINAL = ( 0.30 ) - ( 0.1008 ) - ( 0.0672 )
RES_FINAL = 0.132
+4 Ghost Widow is left with only 13.2% res to negative instead of 30%
Now what if we we're double stacking sleet but without the proc?
RES_FINAL = ( 0.30 ) - ( 0.1008 ) - ( 0.1008 )
RES_FINAL = 0.0984
+4 Ghost Widow is left with only 9.84% res to negative instead of 30%
Of course since Ghost Widow has zero resistance to fire/energy/cold she is suffers -14.4% for each instance of Sleet ( -28.8% when double stacked )
Now the damage calculations are easy here since Resistance only looks at the final damage of a power. An attack that does 100 damage against 30% resistant dmg type will only deal 70 damage and when it's a -30% res value it's final damage will be 130 damage. This is a lot better than +dmg buffs in the long run too since +Dmg buffs only effect the base damage of a power and not the value after enhancements.
DMG_FINAL = DMG_BUFFED * ( 1 - RES_FINAL )
If RES_FINAL is negative you'll get a higher value and if positive you get a lower value.
---------------------------------------------------
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Your cast times aren't accounting for server ticks (arcana time). The ice chain takes 4.36 sec rather than 3.74 that mids states.
I'm not sure how you are figuring you'll quadruple stack shriek. At 300% recharge (purple +rech build) shriek cycles every 1.94 seconds. I can't recall if shriek applies the -res at the beginning of the animation or at the end. I suppose it doesn't really matter though. It gives 5 seconds of debuff. Technically you'll stack three, but with only 0.06 seconds to spare I doubt you'll see more than double stack.
I don't have my sonic chains anymore, but I know a proper one can eb and flow between 4 and 6 stacks of the -res. It will do a lot more damage than just shriek spam. Way more once you start adding procs.
The longer cast of scream appears bad, but the first two ticks of damage apply the -res and the next 8 are self buffed. Very unique attack. As a result it ends up being your highest dpa attack.
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The rad/son build I posted had perma AM+Hasten as well as 5 purp sets and a couple other global recharge bonuses from a couple other random sets that totalled about +170% global recharge (the 170% is including the 100% from AM and Hasten), which puts shriek's recharge at about .83 sec (according to mid's) which means it looks like shriek can be spammed like neutrino bolt from rad blast (at least on paper). I've heard of Arcana Time before I don't know what that is?? How I was figuring I would be able to sustain -80% res from spamming shriek was I was thinking it would work like this:
each x = 1 sec of -20% res from shriek
each o = filler to make the x's line up
each x = the quad stacked -20% res that the 5th attack benefits from at the beginning of the 5th attack
Shriek1 x x x x x o o o
Shriek2 o x x x x x o o
Shriek3 o o x x x x x o
Shriek4 o o o x x x x x
I'm not sure if this is how it would actually work in practice, but in theory it seems like this would work... right? Also, it seems like a pretty sweet idea to throw the dec'm buildup proc in shriek with 5 apocalypse for some pretty sweet ST DPS when it procs.
To respond to the rest of you guys that're answering my questions (thanks btw :-D), I see what you mean by Rad having more free time with toggle debuffs vs the click debuffs from cold. The other plus side to rad is AM and the ability to make LR and Hasten perma with 0 LotGs. Cold's plus sides are it can cap recovery and has slows...
And I have nothing against rad/ice or cold/son Hindenburg, in fact I was running the numbers on Cold/Son for a little while today and it seems like it would make a pretty power pvp combo as well as AV soloer.
Thanks for the in depth explanation on res and -res turbo, I've read your guide before and forgot that you spelled out all the info on -res :-).
One thing I feel worth noting from the OP that might have been covered, but as I understand it, and as is my experience, powers don't start recharging until they're done activating.
Really?? I've never heard of that, I wonder if that's true? I thought they started recharging the same time they were activated (at least it seems like they do in game when you use them).
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Really?? I've never heard of that, I wonder if that's true? I thought they started recharging the same time they were activated (at least it seems like they do in game when you use them).
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Powers don't recharge until they're finished animating. This is why you can't use a power continuously without any gaps in the attack chain if you get the recharge under the animation time.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your cast times aren't accounting for server ticks (arcana time). The ice chain takes 4.36 sec rather than 3.74 that mids states.
I'm not sure how you are figuring you'll quadruple stack shriek. At 300% recharge (purple +rech build) shriek cycles every 1.94 seconds. I can't recall if shriek applies the -res at the beginning of the animation or at the end. I suppose it doesn't really matter though. It gives 5 seconds of debuff. Technically you'll stack three, but with only 0.06 seconds to spare I doubt you'll see more than double stack.
I don't have my sonic chains anymore, but I know a proper one can eb and flow between 4 and 6 stacks of the -res. It will do a lot more damage than just shriek spam. Way more once you start adding procs.
The longer cast of scream appears bad, but the first two ticks of damage apply the -res and the next 8 are self buffed. Very unique attack. As a result it ends up being your highest dpa attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
The rad/son build I posted had perma AM+Hasten as well as 5 purp sets and a couple other global recharge bonuses from a couple other random sets that totalled about +170% global recharge (the 170% is including the 100% from AM and Hasten), which puts shriek's recharge at about .83 sec (according to mid's) which means it looks like shriek can be spammed like neutrino bolt from rad blast (at least on paper). I've heard of Arcana Time before I don't know what that is?? How I was figuring I would be able to sustain -80% res from spamming shriek was I was thinking it would work like this:
each x = 1 sec of -20% res from shriek
each o = filler to make the x's line up
each x = the quad stacked -20% res that the 5th attack benefits from at the beginning of the 5th attack
Shriek1 x x x x x o o o
Shriek2 o x x x x x o o
Shriek3 o o x x x x x o
Shriek4 o o o x x x x x
I'm not sure if this is how it would actually work in practice, but in theory it seems like this would work... right? Also, it seems like a pretty sweet idea to throw the dec'm buildup proc in shriek with 5 apocalypse for some pretty sweet ST DPS when it procs.
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Like I said 0.83+1.188 = 1.948
I already gave you the benefit of having perma hasten+perma AM.
If shriek cycles every 1.95 seconds and the debuff lasts 5 seconds and it takes 1.188 seconds to cast how are you expecting to quad stack it?
IIRC a chain of shriek>scream>shriek>efence>repeat is going to give you the most damage.
Purple proc in shriek. Immob dam proc in efence.
Deci build up in shriek isn't bad, but the pvp dam procs in each attack is better. High -res with damage procs is ftw.
*the fast/easy way to figure out arcana time. Take mids cast time divide by 0.132, round that UP to the nearest whole number, then +1, take new number and mulitply by 0.132 = total cast time.
ex shriek cast 1.0/0.132 = 7.575757 --- round UP = 8 --- +1 = 9 then times by 0.132 = 1.188
Powers don't recharge until they're finished animating. You can't have a seamless (re: no waiting in between attacks) attack string that only consists of a single power.
Interesting insteresting stuff, wow, I never knew/thought about/considered this stuff. It makes sense that the rech time would start after the animation, i just always automatically assumed it started at the beginning of the animation. I don't have efence in my current rad/son build (took the psi epp for set muling) but I wonder if adding screech into the attack chain would increase the -res (screech has a hefty 12s -res effect). Interesting stuff guys, thanks!! Back to the drawing board for me.
Nope, if you pay attention until the power starts animating the "this power is activating" ring around the icon is still spinning. Then when it finishes animating the power icon shrinks.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting insteresting stuff, wow, I never knew/thought about/considered this stuff. It makes sense that the rech time would start after the animation, i just always automatically assumed it started at the beginning of the animation. I don't have efence in my current rad/son build (took the psi epp for set muling) but I wonder if adding screech into the attack chain would increase the -res (screech has a hefty 12s -res effect). Interesting stuff guys, thanks!! Back to the drawing board for me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Screech should be on your team AV killing chain. Jeez I haven't looked at this stuff in a while, but iirc a screech chain hovers between 5 and 7 stacks of the -res (the 7th is very very short though). Which means you are adding at least 100% -res (usually 120%) so doubling everyone's damage.
An AV solo'ing chain won't use it. The avg higher -res doesn't make up for the damage you lose due to the 1.72 sec cast. Although you will have the stun double stacked the whole time so when the ptod drop the AV will be stunned, but that extra mitigation is generally unneeded on a solid AV killing build.
Given your high level of recharge you'll be able to slip dominate in place of efence. Dom can take a purple hold damage proc too!
In a chain of shriek>scream>shriek>dom the purple proc in dom will add ~15 dps to your end damage (including -res).
Using dominate will do a similar thing as screech in that when the ptod lower the AV will be held. However, the reason Efence is "better" is because the immob will keep the AV in one spot the entire fight.
Most AV solo'ing (ranged) builds go for high ranged defense. Ranged defense is pretty useless if/when the AV uses a melee attack. Time spent moving away/around a mobile AV is generally lost dps.
All I know is I have been the only defender on a ITF with no controllers, corruptors or other defenders and I have watched Romulus melt with a Rad/Sonic.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
My brain hurts from all of this dirty, dirty math and scientific observation.
From seeing both of the compared builds played by friends whom I consider to be excellent players (as in, much better than I am and whom I never see make mistakes), I'd say that a Cold/Ice Defender and a Rad/Sonic Defender are about equal in terms of effectiveness.
Rad/Sonic seems to work better than Cold/Ice when solo. The stacked -Res and -Tohit will make things much more survivable, both solo and in teams. Cold/Ice's debuffs have longer recharge times than Rad's toggles.
Too many alts to list.
Ok, so, a question/hopefully discussion provoking display of numbers here for you guys. I came up with two fairly similar builds (Rad/Son and Cold/Ice) based off of Tornelco's posted build (I'll post the links to open both of them in a second). I was doing some number crunching and comparison between the two based on a few different things (solo-bility, AV/GM killing ability, etc), and I noticed that the Cold/Ice build stands up quite well against the Rad/Sonic Build.
The discussion I hope to inspire has a few dimensions to it, I'll try to list them as best as I can:
1.) First, the ST DPS:
I found the cold/ice using the attack chain BIB, Blast, Bolt which has a total animation time of 3.67 sec (which is roughly the recharge of BIB with all the set bonuses + hasten) has the DPS of 111.2 w/o Aim and 135.3 w/ Aim.
I found the rad/son using/spamming shriek (with a recharge less than it's animation time) has the DPS of 109.6 w/o Amplify and 124.8 w/ Amplify.
(I didn't use an attack chain w/ the rad/son because doing the shriek/scream combo yielded significantly less DPS because of scream's 1.67 animation time, it was about 85 w/o amp and 101 w/ amp. I know scream comes with a 7 second -20% res vs shriek's 5 sec, but if you think about it you can get to -80% res in 4 sec just spamming shriek and maintain it as long as you keep spamming shriek whereas it would take you about 5.34 sec to get to -80% res and maintain it assuming you start with scream and alternate between the two blasts)
My question here with the DPS is multifaceted:
Assuming you have a constant -30% res (cold's sleet and rad's EF, and I'm not factoring in heat loss's -res or the -res proc in RI), and you have aim/amp up 1/3 of the time, will the -80% res (giving a total of -110% res for rad/son) make up the difference in the average DPS between Ice and Son?
Does -res have a diminishing return? (As in, there's not much of a noticeable difference between -60% res and -110% res?)
How exactly does -res work? If a mob has 75% damres and you apply 110% -res to it, will the mob's res fall to 0% (making the extra -35% res worthless) or will the mob's res be divided in two for every -100% res applied to it (kind of like the way recharge reduction bonuses work for powers)?
One last thing to add - I was able to fit a dec'm buildup proc into the cold/ice build which would substantially increase DPS for it for about 1 and a half cycles through it's chain (5.25 sec I think), but I'm not sure how reliable it is and left it out of the calculations here.
2.)Buffs/Debuffs Comparison:
AM allows for more global recharge effectively making the Rad/Son build cheaper and giving a steady extra amount of end recovery vs Heat Loss virtually capping end recovery (not to mention the status resistances and the damage buff from AM, which by the way is accounted for in the ST DPS calculations, and the debuffs from heat loss which are mostly redundant in a cold/ice build except for the -30% res)
Rad has a way to effectively increase personal defense with RI (although not much vs AVs and GMs (only ~7-8% from what I've read), as well as add a nice -dam with EF (although it seems the -dam is pretty minor if you're using a shivan).
Cold's counter to RI/EF I suppose would be Arctic Fog which gives about +8% def with this build and some fire/cold/energy resists which can, I suppose, be effectively comparable to the -dam from EF (though only against certain damage types). And benumb (which I was able to get close to perma w/ a 35.3 sec recharge) that comes with a nasty -62.5 dam debuff (2 and a half times EF's -dam).
Rad has a quick un-interuptible self heal where Cold has none (not sure how much the heal really helps the AV fight though, and I suppose Cold might just have to sacrifice a few insp slots for some greens).
On the subject of -regen, rad's LR is effectively perma (30.8 sec recharge) and cold's benumb a few seconds behind with 35.3 sec recharge (but req 2 LotG +recharges to get there vs none on rad).
And last, where cold/ice lacks in -res, it makes up for plenty in -speed, I'm not sure on the numbers but I'd guess with all of cold's slows, it could easily floor an AV or GM's recharge (assuming the AV/GM is not immune to slows) making cold seem 'safer' than rad on paper, though I'm not sure how much the slows would really help if you have a shivan out tanking.
3.)Pricing
I'm not sure which build honestly would be cheaper to slot. At first glance it seemed like the cold/ice would've been more expensive with the two lotg's but then I remembered there was a 5th purp set slotted in screech in rad/son vs cold/ice only have 4 purp sets. In the end I suppose they both seem about equally 'holy crap expensive'.
4.) Questions... and such
Well besides my question(s) in the first sections, I suppose I'm also looking for any of you bored-at-work number crunchers to see anything I'm missing in the comparison, as well as possibly weigh in on both of these combos/builds as far as which you think is better (and why you think it's better, of course). If you feel like altering either or both of the builds and presenting arguments as well, that's completely awesome.
The big overall question I'm asking here (I suppose) is: With these comparisons/numbers in mind for these builds, is a cold/ice just as viable of an AV/GM soloer as rad/sonic?
I apologize if this post seems fractured/all over the place but I've been walking away from it and coming back to it for about 6 hours now (I have ADD). Also, I'm pretty confident with my math, but I wouldn't be surprised if I was way off, so lemme know (with some numbers) how I'm wrong if I'm wrong. Without further delay, here are the two builds:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Cold Domination
Secondary Power Set: Ice Blast
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Radiation Emission
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack