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My fire/fire blaster, if I'm going all out with no regard for my own safety (is there any other way?) can and does pull agro off of anything but an Ice tank running both auras and taunting. If a tank doesn't have Taunt while my blaster is on the team, he is basically a really tough scrapper for all the agro he keeps off me. A stoner running Mud Pots can hold agro from me as well, mostly because they run so slowly they forget about me before they leave the aura.
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Eh, no. It doesn't happen this way. Especially not with a fire/fire blaster who has no particularly strong aggro generation. Contrary to some other MMORPGs, damage does not in and of itself generate particularly high threat, and there's little else that a fire/fire blaster does. If you want to generate high threat, you need taunt effects or (lacking that) debuffs to stack on top of damage. On top of that, blasters have the lowest AT threat modifier (x1 as opposed to the x4 a tanker has) and are frequently penalized further for being at range (excepting pure blappers).
What you may be seeing is mobs being chased out of the tanker's aggro aura by Rain of Fire and subsequently turning towards you once they forget about the taunt effect from the aura. Or maybe you are playing with Willpower tankers who didn't slot RttC properly.
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While this is my experience too, Castle disagrees with you.
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While this is my experience too, Castle disagrees with you.
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Where? This is an honest questions -- his past posts on this subject seem to pretty much agree with what I think.
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Defenders aren't doing much better.
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Indeed. Vigilance? Useless when you run solo. Not much better on a team either. You only get a endurance discount when you are filing to keep your team alive.
As for Gauntlet, is seems only to be a label for the tanks' taunt aspect in their secondary set. Pool power attacks don't taunt at all. 
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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As for Gauntlet, is seems only to be a label for the tanks' taunt aspect in their secondary set. Pool power attacks don't taunt at all.
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While pool power attacks indeed do not have the Gauntlet "splash" aggro, they still carry a single target taunt effect with the standard duration (0.3*(level-5) seconds).
Brawl, on the other hand, doesn't have even that, but then tankers generally do not waste their endurance on Brawl.
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While this is my experience too, Castle disagrees with you.
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Where? This is an honest questions -- his past posts on this subject seem to pretty much agree with what I think.
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Sarrate linked a post from Castle a few weeks back from a post he made a couple of years ago recanting his original statements on how agro worked in CoH.
Apparently damage does add to the threat scale, but only in extreme situations/amounts as it applies to overriding taunt effects (if I remember correctly).
Basically the gist of it was if a taunt is the only effect being applied (a single taunt effect with no damage or repetition such as Taunt from range) while extreme amounts of damage are being applied to the target from another source, the taunt effect can be overridden.
But the example he gave was fairly extreme and not one practically run across in the game on the norm.
I always thought Tankers should get a Harden Skin Inherent power. The more hits they take the High Def they get, clearly with a capp of some sort or perhaps it would just balance itself out when mobs started missing a ton it would kind of find its own balance.
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While this is my experience too, Castle disagrees with you.
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Where? This is an honest questions -- his past posts on this subject seem to pretty much agree with what I think.
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Sarrate linked a post from Castle a few weeks back from a post he made a couple of years ago recanting his original statements on how agro worked in CoH.
Apparently damage does add to the threat scale, but only in extreme situations/amounts as it applies to overriding taunt effects (if I remember correctly).
Basically the gist of it was if a taunt is the only effect being applied (a single taunt effect with no damage or repetition such as Taunt from range) while extreme amounts of damage are being applied to the target from another source, the taunt effect can be overridden.
But the example he gave was fairly extreme and not one practically run across in the game on the norm.
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I tested just this to see. I was on a SD/DM tanker and my friend was on a BS/SD scrapper. Neither of us had taunt slotted in AAO and we tried a few scenario's.
From what we've tried, with him running AAO and attacking he could pull aggro off of me(only one at the time mind you). Even though I was taunting and attacking his greater output of dmg was keeping aggro on him. It could be different if I slotted taunt in AAO and more taunt in taunt. I just may have to try that out tommorow.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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From what we've tried, with him running AAO and attacking he could pull aggro off of me(only one at the time mind you). Even though I was taunting and attacking his greater output of dmg was keeping aggro on him. It could be different if I slotted taunt in AAO and more taunt in taunt. I just may have to try that out tommorow.
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Depends on how many enemies you had on you, and whether or not they all fit into your taunt aura. The taunt value on Taunt (the power) is so high that I've yet to see anyone pull a Taunted enemy off of a Tanker. Obviously, if Taunt hit its target cap and the one not hit gets hit and the Tanker hasn't done anything else to them, it's very easy to pull an enemy away.
Things like this really require demo records and close analysis of said demos and their combat logs to surmise what's going on.
True. You have reason to question it and I will have try to record it. One thing I will say though, it was a scanner mish of freakshow and there were only up to 5 enemies at a time when we tried it.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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From what we've tried, with him running AAO and attacking he could pull aggro off of me(only one at the time mind you). Even though I was taunting and attacking his greater output of dmg was keeping aggro on him. It could be different if I slotted taunt in AAO and more taunt in taunt. I just may have to try that out tommorow.
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Depends on how many enemies you had on you, and whether or not they all fit into your taunt aura. The taunt value on Taunt (the power) is so high that I've yet to see anyone pull a Taunted enemy off of a Tanker. Obviously, if Taunt hit its target cap and the one not hit gets hit and the Tanker hasn't done anything else to them, it's very easy to pull an enemy away.
Things like this really require demo records and close analysis of said demos and their combat logs to surmise what's going on.
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I always thought that they should have a ring around your character indicating the radius of the taunt aura in use. I would make it so that the effect could be toggled on/off. This would tremendously help new tankers getting a feel for the radius of their powers and also help in reviewing demorecords to see if critters were really in range or not.
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
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-g=C800:5
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While this is my experience too, Castle disagrees with you.
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Where? This is an honest questions -- his past posts on this subject seem to pretty much agree with what I think.
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Sarrate linked a post from Castle a few weeks back from a post he made a couple of years ago recanting his original statements on how agro worked in CoH.
Apparently damage does add to the threat scale, but only in extreme situations/amounts as it applies to overriding taunt effects (if I remember correctly).
Basically the gist of it was if a taunt is the only effect being applied (a single taunt effect with no damage or repetition such as Taunt from range) while extreme amounts of damage are being applied to the target from another source, the taunt effect can be overridden.
But the example he gave was fairly extreme and not one practically run across in the game on the norm.
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I tested just this to see. I was on a SD/DM tanker and my friend was on a BS/SD scrapper. Neither of us had taunt slotted in AAO and we tried a few scenario's.
From what we've tried, with him running AAO and attacking he could pull aggro off of me(only one at the time mind you). Even though I was taunting and attacking his greater output of dmg was keeping aggro on him. It could be different if I slotted taunt in AAO and more taunt in taunt. I just may have to try that out tommorow.
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Well this might be a product of your taunt aura and Gauntlet effect missing (both have a toHit check). That and if his taunt aura hits before yours, agro will be "stolen" for the length of the taunt effect (10 secs I believe for auras?).
Enhancing taunt in taunt auras only increases their duration, not magnitude (but this is usually enough to ensure that once the effect hits, its staying on you until its dead more times then not).
Just a quick update I wanted to chime in with:
I'm still running that DA/WM tank I mentioned earlier in the thread (now lvl 23). When I first posted he was only level 10, and having a LOT of trouble pulling aggro with Gauntlet. However! I am pleased to report that the effectiveness of Gauntlet does indeed seem to be scaling with level! Once I hit the teens it was much easier to pull baddies off of teammates, and the "splash" effect of Gauntlet was much more noticeable. I picked up Taunt at lvl 16 which has helped immensely as well, but even when I don't use it, I do well 
And yeah, I totally agree that Vigilance is the biggest joke of an inherent power. While villain ATs are based around their inherent powers, whereas hero inherents were added as an afterthought, I still think inherents should add something to the "feel" of the AT. I think Gauntlet does this nicely. It's really nice not needing to chase after enemies too.
P.S. Anyone know if the Gauntlet AoE has the same chance to hit as the attack used? I suspect so, as DO acc enhancements seemed to help the taunt splash a bit. Also, do pool attacks and damage auras (death shroud) have Gauntlet?
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Defenders aren't doing much better.
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Indeed. Vigilance? Useless when you run solo. Not much better on a team either. You only get a endurance discount when you are filing to keep your team alive.
As for Gauntlet, is seems only to be a label for the tanks' taunt aspect in their secondary set. Pool power attacks don't taunt at all.
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I actually like Vigilance. I've found the endurance discount pretty noticeable especially at low levels, and on big teams when I need to use my powers the most.
Even having your teammates at an average of 90% health(on an 8 man team)gives you like 46% end redux in ALL your powers, which is pretty huge.
Vigilance discount
I'd love to have Vigilance on my Endurance heavy Tankers. It may be counter-intuitive to a Tankers job, but teammates do get hurt sometimes anyways, especially at lower levels, and that is where tanks could use the End discount the most.
Sadly, only Scrappers had thier inherent from day 1 blue side.
And Vigilance only helps when you screw up. Go me. Then again, Defiance 1.0 was the same way.
And if a Fire/Fire is generating too much aggro, slot better, because 90% of the critters should be dead before they realize you are blasting them.
As for gauntlet.... it seems to be the perfect blend with WP because most tanks have a more agressive aura which holds aggro by itself. Largely, Ive been a disappointed with gauntlet, but really, do tanks need to be better?
Tanker Tuesday #72 Oct 5 @Champion
"I am not sure if my portrayal of being insane is accurate, but damn its fun all the same."
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Sadly, only Scrappers had thier inherent from day 1 blue side.
And Vigilance only helps when you screw up. Go me. Then again, Defiance 1.0 was the same way.
And if a Fire/Fire is generating too much aggro, slot better, because 90% of the critters should be dead before they realize you are blasting them.
As for gauntlet.... it seems to be the perfect blend with WP because most tanks have a more agressive aura which holds aggro by itself. Largely, Ive been a disappointed with gauntlet, but really, do tanks need to be better?
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I could be wrong (and that's been known to happen) but I don't think scrappers launched with crits. They were added early on, but I am pretty sure they did not have them at live launch.
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They didn't. They were added later (though before most other inherents)
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Basically the gist of it was if a taunt is the only effect being applied (a single taunt effect with no damage or repetition such as Taunt from range) while extreme amounts of damage are being applied to the target from another source, the taunt effect can be overridden.
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I know these posts -- I've read them often enough -- and I believe you are misreading them. It takes really obscene amounts of damage to override taunt effects (the multiplier that taunt effects give you is 1000 * remaining taunt duration) that cannot be generated in practice (except vs. Willpower tanks with ineffectively slotted RttC or vs. +5 or higher enemies). If you draw aggro from something that has a taunt effect on it from a tanker, then it's usually something else: additional threat multipliers from debuffs, funky AI behavior, a taunt effect of your own, the tanker being at range, or a combination of those.
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I tested just this to see. I was on a SD/DM tanker and my friend was on a BS/SD scrapper. Neither of us had taunt slotted in AAO and we tried a few scenario's.
From what we've tried, with him running AAO and attacking he could pull aggro off of me(only one at the time mind you). Even though I was taunting and attacking his greater output of dmg was keeping aggro on him. It could be different if I slotted taunt in AAO and more taunt in taunt. I just may have to try that out tommorow.
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The simple problem here is that Against all Odds (along with Invincibility) is one of the two taunt auras with the longest taunt durations in the game (16.875 at level 50), tankers and scrappers alike, and that Dark Melee's Taunt power is (along with Dual Blade's) the shortest duration Taunt power in the game (30.75 seconds at level 50).
Consider now that your threat is roughly AT multiplier * remaining taunt duration * damage in this scenario (the AT multiplier is 4 for tankers and 3 for scrappers), and it doesn't take a shield defense scrapper a whole lot of damage to out-aggro you (taunt effects do some "virtual damage" of their own, but the amount is relatively small). If you go with match a strong taunt effect without damage against another strong taunt effect with damage, the latter will win.
And yes, I consider the taunt durations for Invulnerability/Shield Defense scrapper taunt auras to be poor design choices.
(Note that their may be additional issues with the threat from (some) Broadsword attacks, possibly the debuffs associated with them, but I haven't been able to verify that conclusively.)
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Basically the gist of it was if a taunt is the only effect being applied (a single taunt effect with no damage or repetition such as Taunt from range) while extreme amounts of damage are being applied to the target from another source, the taunt effect can be overridden.
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I know these posts -- I've read them often enough -- and I believe you are misreading them. It takes really obscene amounts of damage to override taunt effects (the multiplier that taunt effects give you is 1000 * remaining taunt duration) that cannot be generated in practice (except vs. Willpower tanks with ineffectively slotted RttC or vs. +5 or higher enemies). If you draw aggro from something that has a taunt effect on it from a tanker, then it's usually something else: additional threat multipliers from debuffs, funky AI behavior, a taunt effect of your own, the tanker being at range, or a combination of those.
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Shrug ... obviously I didn't misread it since you just confirmed what I just said (I *did* say extreme situations didn't I?) but I agree that you don't come across that in game very often (obviously someone has come across it to bring it and have the dev look into it and confirm).
Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if Castle were mistaken since that post was a recant of what he'd been saying before Q4 2007 (including what he's told me in the past personally).
Either way, agro works fairly basically in this game ... I'm of the opinion that Gauntlet actually works well for what it's meant to do (which is add to the agro mechanic, not be the end all be all of it).
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My fire/fire blaster, if I'm going all out with no regard for my own safety (is there any other way?) can and does pull agro off of anything but an Ice tank running both auras and taunting. If a tank doesn't have Taunt while my blaster is on the team, he is basically a really tough scrapper for all the agro he keeps off me. A stoner running Mud Pots can hold agro from me as well, mostly because they run so slowly they forget about me before they leave the aura.
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Eh, no. It doesn't happen this way. Especially not with a fire/fire blaster who has no particularly strong aggro generation. Contrary to some other MMORPGs, damage does not in and of itself generate particularly high threat, and there's little else that a fire/fire blaster does. If you want to generate high threat, you need taunt effects or (lacking that) debuffs to stack on top of damage. On top of that, blasters have the lowest AT threat modifier (x1 as opposed to the x4 a tanker has) and are frequently penalized further for being at range (excepting pure blappers).
What you may be seeing is mobs being chased out of the tanker's aggro aura by Rain of Fire and subsequently turning towards you once they forget about the taunt effect from the aura. Or maybe you are playing with Willpower tankers who didn't slot RttC properly.