Who would take Tough/Weave on a Stone/Dark Tank?
By
Aceovhartz,
Posted on: 2009-06-07 07:47 in Tankers
you don't need tough except for the single slot, but ya never have to turn it on. Weave on the other hand is a must take. just 4 slotting weave can allow you to cap or achieve close to cap number for defense with the help of IO sets, and even without IO sets will make a already solid defensive wall into a fortress.
Tough and Weave slotted up, when added to what Stone Armor already has, makes for an INCREDIBLY hard to kill tank, especially against S/L damage, and also allows one to rarely need to bother with Granite Armor even on large teams (although some AE stuff will still require it), since you can get very high +Def numbers that way.
You cannot run either Hover or CJ with Rooted or Granite, so if you're going for a Def-heavy build you might look into Maneuvers as well despite it being rather an end-hog until you get good Endred slotting into it.
Leadership numbers for tanks aren't that good, but slotted up Maneuvers+Weave is in the neighborhood of 10% +Def, combined with Granite and a Steadfast 3% unique you should be near the cap against all non-Psi and have 13%ish to Psi (there is no +def to Toxic). you could then IO for +Def (Psi) and can get that to about 25-30% without too massive an investment cashwise (will eat a lot of slots though). The tradeoff is that you will not have much (if any) room for IOing to cover Granite's penalties so you'll still be slow while in it.
[ QUOTE ]
Tough and Weave slotted up, when added to what Stone Armor already has, makes for an INCREDIBLY hard to kill tank, especially against S/L damage, and also allows one to rarely need to bother with Granite Armor even on large teams (although some AE stuff will still require it), since you can get very high +Def numbers that way.
You cannot run either Hover or CJ with Rooted or Granite, so if you're going for a Def-heavy build you might look into Maneuvers as well despite it being rather an end-hog until you get good Endred slotting into it.
Leadership numbers for tanks aren't that good, but slotted up Maneuvers+Weave is in the neighborhood of 10% +Def, combined with Granite and a Steadfast 3% unique you should be near the cap against all non-Psi and have 13%ish to Psi (there is no +def to Toxic). you could then IO for +Def (Psi) and can get that to about 25-30% without too massive an investment cashwise (will eat a lot of slots though). The tradeoff is that you will not have much (if any) room for IOing to cover Granite's penalties so you'll still be slow while in it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've thought quite a few times about taking manuvers but couldn't figure out what I would give up to take it so I have consistently just stuck with what I have.
Between fighting, fitness, teleport, and hasten there are none of those that I would want to give up for the 3 def or whatever it is.
The cons to taking Tough/weave is it drains alot of endurance on an already End heavy Armor set(esp. with Mud Pots), plus it takes up 3 power picks that could be used on more fun ones.
Granite is tough enough by itself for large teams, and Rock Armor/Rooted/stone skin/earths embrace is enough for small teams/solo(especially if you take some attacks, and use their mitigation/damage).
Better yet, get some +def from IO's like I did, and have capped S/L defense with, or without granite. If things get tough, I can use granite to take the Alpha Strike, then switch to Rock Armor/Rooted so I can do some damage.
The +def IO's also make Granite Armor ridiculously tough.
As always, the choice is up to the player.
I take Tough and Weave on EVERY tank.. even Stone..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
tough and weave on a stone tank is like medicine pool on an emp. i mean seriously...you can cap the resistance you need to and if you want, take all the optional other armors, then take every power in your secondary and STILL have room for fitness, a travel, and 3 epic pool powers. i could see taking it ONLY if you plan being non granite
I take tough/weave on my stoner.
Main reason: I'm not always in granite, and tough/weave help.
If things get bad, up in granite. If things are VERY bad, granite+tough+weave. For mixed psi foes (e.g. carnies), I usually use granite and weave only.
But mostly, stone (sans granite) is a bit overly squishie for my taste. tough+weave help overcome. Not all of us live in granite.
50 Tanks: Invul/ss, Fire/ice/fire, Ice/em, Stone/fire
WP/Stone, dark/dark, shld/mace
50 Other: WS, SS/dark/sc brute, BS/Regen/WM scrpr, fire/fire/force blaster, rad/kin corr, mind/rad ctrl, ill/storm cntrl
stone skin plus granite (sloted properly) makes tough redundant and wasted. I can see weave, and maybe even manuvers. I just think you can get the same thing these contribute with IO's.
[ QUOTE ]
Better yet, get some +def from IO's like I did, and have capped S/L defense with, or without granite. If things get tough, I can use granite to take the Alpha Strike, then switch to Rock Armor/Rooted so I can do some damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
This, tho it's generally far easier to hit S/L def cap w/Weave. Also, out of Granite, Tough helps a lot. 
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
I take it on EVERY Tank.. No exceptions...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Here is the numbers fresh from mids, to show just how good granite gets with weave and manuevers added, keep in mind this is wtih stone skin 3 slotted for resistance and 2 resistance io's in granite and all IO's are lvl 50.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Level 34 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Stone Skin <ul type="square">[*] (A) Resist Damage IO: Level 50[*] (3) Resist Damage IO: Level 50[*] (3) Resist Damage IO: Level 50[*] (5) Empty[*] (5) Empty[/list]Level 1: Stone Fist <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 2: Earth's Embrace <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 4: [Empty]
Level 6: Mud Pots <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 8: Rooted <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 10: Maneuvers <ul type="square">[*] (A) Defense Buff IO: Level 50[*] (11) Defense Buff IO: Level 50[*] (11) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50[*] (13) Defense Buff IO: Level 50[/list]Level 12: [Empty]
Level 14: [Empty]
Level 16: [Empty]
Level 18: [Empty]
Level 20: Weave <ul type="square">[*] (A) Defense Buff IO: Level 50[*] (21) Defense Buff IO: Level 50[*] (21) Defense Buff IO: Level 50[*] (23) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50[/list]Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: Granite Armor <ul type="square">[*] (A) Defense Buff IO: Level 50[*] (33) Defense Buff IO: Level 50[*] (33) Resist Damage IO: Level 50[*] (33) Resist Damage IO: Level 50[*] (34) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50[*] (34) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50[/list]Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 1: Sprint <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 2: Rest <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 1: Gauntlet
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;805;376;752;HEX;|
|78DAA591DD4AC33014C733ED28DD3AE7A88C31C459BC1A8C8 2777E5CC8700A834D8|
|60EAFD4D2D5B8056B3BD22AEECE07F0157C10F155FCB8F041 624E928D6D7EDC7868|
|7EFF9C7F729A43D2BE6F98083DECA194B91F7871EC76BDF01 A53FDC84B6EA917201|
|D2154969EDBC057388CB17392442176EBF426A225B5D4C601 1E2F8879A1190E30C5|
|61E28C27F94E14054E0B7B9798C60332CC89FC90F4070909F B5999059016C4BC19D|
|E9198F448409291753024BE53A77E427CB7EDC509A6A312EF ACCAC7ABC191E20331|
|0DD5B86CA28519D1180FC58D0C52C1F807CE9BA1AAB993120 E80BD733BADECB4B03|
|FB8A3CB73902E9C02BF1C433A8BC69A382BA3C41662CA8CFD 101AAFB554AD25B7AD|
|CC48D1FEB556C4276FA7227F90AEC8927525B569B1ED69617 FC6AA367F3BAD6F4E4|
|79BBFAFAA3679807FC5B3393ECB388667EA023A8053C019E0 1C7001F0003D800F60|
|2F93EAFC1634B40DD801EC021E61939EE5C8024C400EB004C 803960116A00828039|
|E00EC0BDAA01557|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|</pre><hr />
With that slotting in mids these are the numbers we end up with.
Defense:
S/L - 41.5
En/Neg - 41.5
F/C - 41.5
Psi - 11.5
Melee - 11.5
Ranged - 11.5
Resistance:
S/L - 90
En/Neg - 74.9
F/C - 74.9
Tox - 74.9
Psi - 0
Thats with just regular lvl 50 IO's no sets used or anything, when you start factoring in sets you can easily be pushing defense caps and achieve sheer raw unkillability.
AoE -
Just out of curiosity... I like having all of the following pools on my stoner:
speed,
fitness,
teleport,
fighting
Obviously you can't give up fighting or fitness since that would kind of defeat what you were trying to do with the build above.... so which of the other two do you skip to get leadership.... or do you just skip both?
If you spend most of your time tanking for big teams in Granite, they don't repay the investment in powers or slots.
If you solo, all you really need is Rooted, Mud Pots, maybe Stone Armor, and occasionally Earth's Embrace.
It's between those two extremes that they might come in handy. But they are hardly must haves, and Stone has enough drawbacks without adding more rather boring armors instead of more attacks or just things you took for amusement's sake.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I take it on every tank also.
OR you can take all your attacks, skip fighting pool, pick up a good epic, slot enough recharge to overcome granite, slot enough runspeed to be fine, and if your lucky, put a dent in the -30 percent damage that granite gives you. for every secondary power you dont take, thats one more armor you can grab.
You can pull of massive recharge if you slot right and not have to give up too much damage or attack power! People will do what they want, but I just think there is no need for fighting on a stone tank. mean, i can stand in the middle of two level 54 boss spawns and afk.
now granted, you can take fighting, and run granite only when needed, but its far from nessecary. with my guy being a stone/stone/fire tank, I use ALL of his secondary and epics. Oh well....its your 15 dollars
[ QUOTE ]
mean, i can stand in the middle of two level 54 boss spawns and afk.
[/ QUOTE ]
These are not the limits of Stone that we aspire to. There's far more that can be done, and it sometimes takes Tough/Weave.
Having said that, I previously used Maneuvers, not Weave, to get my last bits of S/L def, but I just finished a respec that gets me to 44.5% S/L w/o either Man or Weave which makes me much happier. So yeah, it's not needed, but it's a whole lot easier to get to where Granite is hardly used except as an emergency power.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
so, i guess i was arguing a moot point all this time. If the point of said tank is to avoid using granite if at all possible, then by all means take tough, weave, manuvers, and any of the other armors you want.
with that, you might want to slot touch of death and thunderstrike instead of crushing impact and decimation. also, alot of the knockback sets would be great in fault. make sure and put end reduction in yout toggles..mainly mudpots. i just think if this guy wants to do so much without granite..pick another primary. be invul or something...
[ QUOTE ]
OR you can take all your attacks, skip fighting pool, pick up a good epic, slot enough recharge to overcome granite, slot enough runspeed to be fine, and if your lucky, put a dent in the -30 percent damage that granite gives you. for every secondary power you dont take, thats one more armor you can grab.
You can pull of massive recharge if you slot right and not have to give up too much damage or attack power! People will do what they want, but I just think there is no need for fighting on a stone tank. mean, i can stand in the middle of two level 54 boss spawns and afk.
now granted, you can take fighting, and run granite only when needed, but its far from nessecary. with my guy being a stone/stone/fire tank, I use ALL of his secondary and epics. Oh well....its your 15 dollars
[/ QUOTE ]
It's also where to mule the IO's... at least for me. I want as many of the +def and +res IO's as I can get.
Having 2 extra spots to put those IO's in tough and weave is a great benefit for a single set, and it also helps me solo.
I usually run Granite + Mud Pots + weave and have everything but psi capped off.
If I took all of the attacks from my secondary my guess is I would have severe recharge, end, and run speed problems. My stoner is stone/fire/fire though and focuses almost entirely on the aoes. I don't take Fire Sword, Greater Fire Sword, Breath of Fire, and in the epic I only use melt armor and fireball (took char but it's not even on a bar). Between all the rest I have both a great aoe attack chain and a great ST attach chain... why would I need any more attacks?
I don't need a kin, or any other defensive support for that matter... and any team that I make can basically be straight debuff and damage dealers.
well, I am sure if i was a /fire tanker my picks would be different, but I am focusing on negating recharge through sloting. like i said, I took everything /stone has, plus the pyre epic, and i use every attack but ring of fire.
I switch back and forth between my opening AoE's: tremor, fireball, fault, melt armor and my single target attacks and it works well for me. Every attack, I think, serves a purpose if you think about it. not only that, I just didnt want to be limited in my attack chain because of granites slow recharge rate, which i have now overcame....not to mention i didnt want to be tied to hasten.
I play in granite almost all the time, so my focus was nagating granites 3 main limitations, to which I have done 2 of those....rooted's poor runspeed...thats a different matter.
[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity... I like having all of the following pools on my stoner:
speed,
fitness,
teleport,
fighting
Obviously you can't give up fighting or fitness since that would kind of defeat what you were trying to do with the build above.... so which of the other two do you skip to get leadership.... or do you just skip both?
[/ QUOTE ]
Speed pool is the one i skipped. That build was just a example of what can be gotten with IO's and weave/manuevers for defense.
My granite tank is built to tank the MOSTF and is perma granite so i've negated alot of run speed debuff and some of the recharge and damge debuffs so it preforms really well.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity... I like having all of the following pools on my stoner:
speed,
fitness,
teleport,
fighting
Obviously you can't give up fighting or fitness since that would kind of defeat what you were trying to do with the build above.... so which of the other two do you skip to get leadership.... or do you just skip both?
[/ QUOTE ]
Speed pool is the one i skipped. That build was just a example of what can be gotten with IO's and weave/manuevers for defense.
My granite tank is built to tank the MOSTF and is perma granite so i've negated alot of run speed debuff and some of the recharge and damge debuffs so it preforms really well.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wanna know what changes you had to make to be able to handle a MoSTF. I tried tanking recluse and couldnt hang with him (i didnt have a dedicated emp of course) does weave and manuvers really make that huge a difference? I wanna see your build and stats. this sounds interesting
This is my stone/stone's planned build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Speed
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armor -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), GftotA-Def(3), GftotA-Run+(13), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 1: Stone Fist -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(31), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 2: Earth's Embrace -- H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(A), H'zdH-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(5), RgnTis-Heal/EndRdx(7), RgnTis-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Mrcl-EndRdx/Rchg(46), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(46)
Level 4: Heavy Mallet -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 6: Swift -- Run-I(A), Run-I(7)
Level 8: Rooted -- H'zdH-Heal/EndRdx(A), H'zdH-Heal(9), Heal-I(9)
Level 10: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(A)
Level 12: Teleport Foe -- Acc-I(A)
Level 14: Teleport -- TSM'n-EndRdx(A)
Level 16: Stone Mallet -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(19)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Mud Pots -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(23), TmpRdns-Acc/Dmg/Slow(23), TmpRdns-Acc/EndRdx(31), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(34)
Level 24: Fault -- Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(A), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(25), Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(25)
Level 26: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(A), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(27)
Level 28: Hurl Boulder -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(31), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 30: Stone Skin -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-Psi/Status(36), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(45)
Level 32: Granite Armor -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(33), ResDam-I(33), GftotA-Run+(33), GftotA-Def(36), DefBuff-I(50)
Level 35: Tremor -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(39), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Erad-Acc/Rchg(39), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 38: Seismic Smash -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(40), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(42), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Minerals -- GftotA-Run+(A), GftotA-Def(43), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(43), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 44: Brimstone Armor -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(46), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(48)
Level 47: Crystal Armor -- GftotA-Run+(A), GftotA-Def(48), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(50), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
I'm not sure if I'll keep Brimstone, and Crystal armor, but I've always wanted to see how a well-IO'd non-granite Stone Armor tank performs.(My stoner is only lvl 39 atm, but it does very well outside of granite if there isn't too much non-S/L damage coming in)
[ QUOTE ]
tough and weave on a stone tank is like medicine pool on an emp. i mean seriously...you can cap the resistance you need to and if you want, take all the optional other armors, then take every power in your secondary and STILL have room for fitness, a travel, and 3 epic pool powers. i could see taking it ONLY if you plan being non granite
[/ QUOTE ]
O.o
True not needed for "average" playstyle, but to try to run a granite solo through the missions I run mine thru and you WILL NOT survive without tough and weave. In fact my granite.. fully slotted res/def in tough/weave/granite often cannot survive.
And yes with team support rock can be uber without tough/weave .. but then slap an sb, your other team buffs and target your heals thru/on ANY tank and guess what...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiosity... I like having all of the following pools on my stoner:
speed,
fitness,
teleport,
fighting
Obviously you can't give up fighting or fitness since that would kind of defeat what you were trying to do with the build above.... so which of the other two do you skip to get leadership.... or do you just skip both?
[/ QUOTE ]
Speed pool is the one i skipped. That build was just a example of what can be gotten with IO's and weave/manuevers for defense.
My granite tank is built to tank the MOSTF and is perma granite so i've negated alot of run speed debuff and some of the recharge and damge debuffs so it preforms really well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mine is same build, need hasten for granite, no SS tho.
Leadership is weakest link, so would not take.. an extra .29 end draw for a 2.25 def bonus in maneuvers? rigggghht. I got set bonuses that give me twice that for no end draw 
.
Leadership pool is bad for any melee AT. the bonuses are way under other AT's in same pool.
The other day, I was in an AE farm with another Stone tank. When we finished the run, he sent me a pst telling me that he had a Stone/Dark tank and that I'd benefit tremendously from Tough/Weave.
It seems like defensive overkill to me. What do you think?