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i made a Kinetics/Electric defender who is now L11 and it seems like it is too easy for enemies to get a sliver of endurance back and get an attack off.
i know i only have Short Circuit which prevents end recovery for 10 sec, but other then Transference at L26 (which is just an end drain) i would have to make Short Circuit perma. it seems like way too much effort to keep an end draining build up.
the only guide i saw on this kind of build was very old so i assume at this point in the game an end draining character is obsolete?
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End drain has been pretty useless as a primary support/defense mechanism for a long time. Enemies requires next to no endurance to actually use most of their attacks, including their best ones. In order to actually have much of an effect, you're going to need to throw out huge amounts of -recov at all times, which isn't particularly feasible in AoE situations.
Making a build that's capable of end drain is viable, but making a build that relies completely on end drain is not. If you're looking for a defensive secondary that you can mitigate damage with to make up for kinetic's offensive-ness, I suggest energy or psychic.
My Kin/Elec, at 41 is a very viable "Sapper" build, actually. Along with the bread-and-butter drains of Short Circuit and Transference, the majority of her /Elec attacks also have at least some drain capability. Mostly single target (except for Ball Lightning), and not really worth slotting for End Mod (unlike the Big Two), but they add up. Because I almost always run on Invincible, she sees very few even-con minions (which can be drained with one shot of Short Circuit), so the AoE drainage capability is largely irrelevant.
However, against single targets, including bosses, EBs, and even some AVs, she can keep them fully drained for very long periods. Bosses will frequently never get an attack off once drained (and Trans + SC will do it) before they're defeated, and that's happened with EBs, too. An AV will recover fast enough to still attack, but the rate at which they do so can be reduced dramatically (in most cases; some AVs are simply too fast to recover).
Rapid recharge of the draining attacks is key. She has Hasten, and has Siphon Speed multi-slotted for accuracy. I'm building her IO sets for a lot of global +recharge, too. Short Circuit is slotted for End Mod and Recharge (it seems pretty inherently accurate...but saving a slot for a +Acc might be a vialble alternative).
I'd say an End Drain strategy is far from obsolete, so long as you keep in mind what it can and cannot do. Oh, and it's useless in PvP now. All of the above applies strictly to PvE.
"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
It's actually quite possible, however I'd make the following recommendation if you play "red side":
Elec/Kinetics/Mu
You'll have Short Circuit/Transference/Power Sink (the last being auto-hit).
Really, really nasty in terms of "sapping."
GL whatever path you end up choosing, but I'm loving mine!
EDIT:
Oops! Forgot to add one of the best reasons for going Corruptor - Red lightning! 
Ive played a Kin/Elec Defender and an Elec/Elec Blaster to 50, and the Defender was by far the better sapper.
These two are pretty much the only viable builds for sapping now.
Transfusion at 26 gives you a ranged attack that will drain almost all of its targets end. Even a boss. Short Circuit is the only Electrical Attack worth slotting for END drain, and will take over half of a groups END while slotted for end drain. Dont bother slotting for damage in the long term, becaue Fulcrum Shift will take care of all your +Damage needs.
So, my tactics would be, Transfusion the boss from a distance, fire of Short Circuit as they get within range to neuter them, and then stay alive using Transfusion until Short Circuit is recharged again and neuter the rest of the group with a second hit. Use Siphon Speed on the boss to stop them running away, and you never need to target anyone else pretty much - use them as a source for Fulcrum, SiphoN Speed, Transfusion and Transference, and the minions will drop from Ball Lightning and Short Circuit splash damage.
You're still not as safe as a Controller, but its a more dynamic and fun, and well, Kinetic experience.
[Edit] Its rough getting there. At 26 and 28 you get Transference and Tesla Cage, and your survivability soars. Until then I lived off Siphon Speed and jousting to stay in one piece when I solo'd.
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Making a build that's capable of end drain is viable, but making a build that relies completely on end drain is not.
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This.
its seems odd to even have endurance drain and endurance recovery prevention if enemies can fire off anything with a sliver on endurance (not sure if this is officially confirmed).
if enemies had a varying list of powers that used varying amounts of endurance then even if you could not keep any enemy a 0 endurance indefinitely, you could at least prevent the stronger powers from being used.
i understand that with the current possible builds this would give too much of a controller-type build for a defender, but of all the secondary effects generated by attacks, end drain seems useless. the only way to get anything out of it is to build around draining or ignoring it. and in that case, electric damage essentially has no secondary effect.
as the only way to monopolize this effects is to build around it. any half-assing and enemies get continue to get enough endurance to use powers.
was this type of play actually viable in the beginning? at least make the endurance recovery debuff from the regular attacks be like 100% chance for 1sec...
You're right.
End drain in the electrical blast is currently really badly executed for a number of reasons. Its fair to say its broken.
Ice Blast, for comparison, has a meaningful -Recharge on each single target blast - you debuff as you blast. Same with Dark Blast - after a few hits a single target is unable to attack you properly due to the stacked -To Hit.
IMHO electrical blast should work more like that, so that when you attack a boss (as a Defender) you switch them off around 1/2 to 1/3 health, sooner if you slot for it.
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End drain has been pretty useless as a primary support/defense mechanism for a long time. Enemies requires next to no endurance to actually use most of their attacks, including their best ones. In order to actually have much of an effect, you're going to need to throw out huge amounts of -recov at all times, which isn't particularly feasible in AoE situations.
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What I've experienced differs dramatically then. Enemies can only perform the attacks that they have the endurance for. The only situation where I can see end-drain attacks not being viable is in PvP.
I regularly end drain enemies on my Electric / Energy Blaster. After the first chain of Power Boost > Short Ciruit > Ball Lightning, they have 0 end and are TOAST. Also, with max recharge enhancements and either Hasten or global recharge, it's not very hard to keep Short Circuit coming up in under 10 sec. They never get a chance to regain any Endurance and can't do anything.
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A Kin/Elec/Elec defender also has access to 3 -End powers in Transfence, Short Circut and Power Sink. Very easy to sap mobs of all their end and keep them out for every fight.
When there is no room left in Hell, the Dead shall walk the earth.
The problem with endurance drain on a Kin/Elec is you only get two powers with reliable and useful recovery debuffs: Short circuit and Tesla Cage. You won't be very good at Endurance draining until you can get SC's recharge to under 10 seconds. Thankfully all you need for that is some recharge SOs and Siphon Speed. When you get SOs, 1 Accuracy, 3 Recharge, 2 End Mod will have SC doing the job. It still takes about 10 seconds to full drain a group, so you will want other defenses in place to keep you going while waiting on SC to recharge.
Until then, put Damage in SC and just kill things faster with it. Focus your attacks on a single target with the intent of draining its endurance as it ticks up another batch before it can use that endurance itself.
I have a 50 Kin/Electric; I will add my opinion.
The short answer: Endurance draining is slow and defensive, Kinetics is fast and offensive. After my experience with the character, I have decided the two sets don't go together very well, particularly now that Defenders have Ice Blast.
The long answer: Endurance draining can be awesome in the lower levels. In the high 20s my Kin/Electric was fantastic at both speeding a team up and providing a lot of mitigation through Short Circuit spamming. I had Hasten, I had SOs, and I had Siphon Speed stacking 2-3 times. That meant perma-debuff, and a completely endurance-free mob after 2 SCs, including the boss. Even the occasional AVs/GMs that my teams would run across weren't immune: admittedly, they would be almost dead by the time I got them drained, but I could still drain them completely all by myself.
The real problem came in the high levels. Controllers are much better than you at locking a spawn down. Tankers are much better than you at keeping a spawn occupied and under control, and they might need a little healing, but all Kins do that easily. Scrappers and Blasters might benefit from your draining, but they can't help keep you alive, so you probably won't survive long enough to drain the whole group. Other Defenders can help keep you alive, but unless they're another Kinetic, they're probably doing more for team survival than you provide with your draining, at least for the first 10 seconds.
Next, AVs stop being susceptible to draining. In my experience, the low-level AVs could be drained, but I never made a dent in any of the AVs I fought past 35-40. AVs are also where mitigation becomes more important, because AV fights tend to be a little harder than run-of-the-mill spawn groups. So, when you need your draining the most, that's when it's the most useless.
For all of those reasons, I retired my Kin/Electric. I really enjoyed playing him, but I love Kin, so that's a given. My new Kin/Ice is much more capable, both solo and on teams, and he does a whole lot more damage. I came to decide that Kin probably shouldn't worry too much about team survival, because it doesn't have a whole lot of tools to facilitate that. Instead, Kin should focus on speed and damage, and let other people worry about mitigation.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with the combination if you find it fun. My Kin/Electric could solo pretty well once I hit the mid-30s, though it was a little slow. On teams, I was still a Kin, so I was still very effective.
The towers in the STF are very drainable, which stops them from spawning repair-bots. The Hami in the LGTF is also drainable, though I don't know exactly what that accomplishes (I have very little experience with that TF). If you do happen to find yourself on a team of Blasters, Scrappers, and Kin Defenders, your draining would probably be decent, though I doubt it would be the cornerstone of the team.
I like to ramble, and it shows. Regardless, I am a big proponent of the philosophy "play whatever is fun to you". If you don't like it, try something else. If you do like it, then to hell with what other people have to say. Kin/Electric is not for me, but that doesn't make it bad. It just doesn't fit into my playstyle.
Bye, everybody!
*Champion*
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The only situation where I can see end-drain attacks not being viable is in PvP.
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End drain is plenty viable in pvp. My storm/sonic will occasionally fully drain people. Just like in pve though, you'll suffer if you completely base yourself around it.
My Rad/Electric leverages end drain. It is nice. But it is not an end all or be all. The character isn't built around it to be sure.
I think of drain as icing on the cake. End drain on its own is not reliable enough to make up the cake.
It sure is nice icing though...
TTR
i have 2 (1) lvl 50 sappers, 1 a lvl 50 kin/elec and the other a lvl 50 rad/elec, both defenders and they were built with pvp in mind.
the (1) is a lvl 50 earth/storm controller, i figure having perma 2 and a third lighting storm 6 slotted with efficacy adaptors, drains pretty damn quick.
they work really well when running duos/teams, solo they lack damage but u can whittle most things down solo but not all. the idea behind it is simple, since the devs ruined mezzing ie mezzing doesn't drop toggles, why not sap them off, if they have no endurance, they have no toggles; once the defenses are down thats when the offense spikes.
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The real problem came in the high levels. Controllers are much better than you at locking a spawn down. Tankers are much better than you at keeping a spawn occupied and under control, and they might need a little healing, but all Kins do that easily. Scrappers and Blasters might benefit from your draining, but they can't help keep you alive, so you probably won't survive long enough to drain the whole group. Other Defenders can help keep you alive, but unless they're another Kinetic, they're probably doing more for team survival than you provide with your draining, at least for the first 10 seconds.
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Really good point here, Nick.
I think one of the design flaws of the set is that its a blast set, ie intended to have control as a secondary feature. But the only viable end drain power is an AoE. Beefing this up to provide reliable AoE boos-level control in a blast set would be way overpowered, so we end up with a set that does AoE control poorly and single target control not at all.
Well, except for Tesla Cage, which makes it just like all the other sets with a hold or stun.
The only times its safe to use Short Circuit in big teams are when the enemy are already locked down by a Tank or Controller.
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The only times its safe to use Short Circuit in big teams are when the enemy are already locked down by a Tank or Controller.
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Bah! We don't need no stinking Tankers! A good Kin/Elec build only needs to survive 10 seconds or so before a fight is basically won with the second application of SC. Sure, its harder before you get your APP armor at 44, but it is still quite doable. There are certainly foes that you want to use the right insperations (or ally buffs) against, but even tankers can run into that (though far more rarely).
Back in I5 I used to solo in the RCS, it was a blast. I was pulling off a weaker version of the RWZ Scrapper challenge (+2s) at 41. When ED removed the "I Win Button" aspect from SC, I could still do it using Break Frees. Ironically it made it easier, as it trivialized the major threat of Mez, which killed the fun for me. When teams would stall due to a Tanker or "Healer" going AFK, I would regularly kick start it by going off and soloing 8 man spawns. Nothing clues people in that Tankers and "Healers" are unnessicary like XP rolling in.
I started a new Kin/Elec on my current server a few months back, figuring the options from Inventions would breathe new life into the concept for me. What do you know, I'm back to my old tricks again. Soloing where Tanks dread to tread, and ripping up the RWZ once more. Two more levels till 50, then I might feel confident enough in my understanding of the build under the current rules to try my hand at an update to Quason's excellent and ancient guide.
Anywho, Electric Blast's problem is that individually each power is balanced (possible exception in Voltaic Sentinel), yet taken as a whole the set lacks. That is what makes any fix to it such a pain. I suppose a bit more direct draining in a single target power or two might help it live up to its soft control concept.
i made a Kinetics/Electric defender who is now L11 and it seems like it is too easy for enemies to get a sliver of endurance back and get an attack off.
i know i only have Short Circuit which prevents end recovery for 10 sec, but other then Transference at L26 (which is just an end drain) i would have to make Short Circuit perma. it seems like way too much effort to keep an end draining build up.
the only guide i saw on this kind of build was very old so i assume at this point in the game an end draining character is obsolete?