The new changes and low level doms: an analysis
By
Archus,
Posted on: 2009-05-26 19:27 in Dominators
NICE post... Well stated and with ample specific info laid out to support your points. Personally, I'd suggest PMing a link to it to Castle, it'd be nice for him to see that there are non-volatile reason based discussions going on here and not just (somewhat) pointless bickering 
.
Gratz to Muon_Neutrino on a great job, and some interesting and useful points!
Arg
Thank you for taking the time to put this together.
great work. I was under the impression that the damage buff was mostly to fix the issue with early leveling (that apparentl exists). Interesting to see it will have a pretty small impact.
Now I'm less sure of what the damage buff is really supposed to address other than the dislike of the jekyl and hyde feel. Which as I understand was the original desing of the AT.
Interesting numbers. Any chance we can get numbers assuming the player is not using Domination at all?
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great work. I was under the impression that the damage buff was mostly to fix the issue with early leveling (that apparentl exists). Interesting to see it will have a pretty small impact.
Now I'm less sure of what the damage buff is really supposed to address other than the dislike of the jekyl and hyde feel. Which as I understand was the original desing of the AT.
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Remember, only a tiny fraction of Dominators ever go perma-dom, even at level 50. That means most people will see a significant boost over most of their play time (level 20+).
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
Nice analysis Muon.
It actually makes Castle's proposal look about spot on to me.
Before level 10 I suspect Dominators are actually overperforming currently, because of having attacks in both the primary in secondary, along with the huge damage boost from Domination. Several times I've heard people remark "wow, just started a dom, it's awesome, does it stay this good?" In my limited experience, other ATs, are slower at those levels, excluding Blasters.
Currently I'd say Dominators start to hit the low damage blues around level 15. In your analysis, the new proposal starts to boost damage at level 16, and it's a bit conservative in favour of the current system, assuming poor damage slotting, and efficient use of Domination.
Exactly. IME New Dom players are NOT good at using Domination frequently, tending to save it till the end boss all the time. With that thrown into the mix the balance would shift *significantly* towards the new system, and as mentioned the new system doesn't really start coming into it's own until:
1. You have substantial damage slotting.
2. The damage scalers start to get close to their final values.
So the new dmg scales will start making a real difference in the late teens (if you slot for dmg) and early 20's and it'll just get better from there.
Conceptually I agree that _Castle_ probably hit it about right, obviously we'll have to wait and see how it plays, but I'm pretty sure it'll help soloing Doms a LOT, esp with single hard targets that were a real problem before (looking hopefully at PToD EBs).
I Do NOT want to turn this thread into a adjunct of the trainwreck discussion thread . Just wanted to say I agree with Lil's take on it after some time to think it over. REALLY early Doms are Hell-on-wheels when they pop domination currently, and that sets up a bit of a false expectation that is a painful contrast with the late teens early twenties (until you get a full suite of SOs). This change should kind of smooth that curve a bit while still helping out the mid/late game doms and making it more fun to solo content esp in AE.
Again, great thread actually weighing the impact of change with solid math and known quantities instead of speculation.
::thumbs up::
Arg
On the other hand doms were already very easy to solo with excluding ptod, which you could throw all the damage you want onto doms and they will still get two shot by.
I very much agree we'll be looking at a stronger solo AT.
I like the New Dominator proposal and your math shows me all i need to agree with _Castle_'s proposal.
bravo
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
Nice math.
I think Dominators are actually doing really well between 1-12. I start to notice damage decrease at 12 and then at lvl 20 (without SOs), my damage seems to be quite low without Domination.
I don't think lvl 1-11 really matters that much as things can't kill you as fast (if you don't do it at relentless) and it is easier to find a team around that lvl range.
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Second, and similar in some ways to the first, is the way the new changes free you to use domination when you feel it would be the most useful. Since there is no pressure to use dom for the damage boost, it is more likely to be available for the dangerous encounters, which seems like it would be a hard-to-quantify, but real, boost in performance.
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Second point is my favorite one. At lower lvl, only Lost can really become "mez problem", so Domination is mainly used for just Damage buff as aoe holds have super long recharge and they don't come until later. In I15, my Dom can only save Domination for bosses to ensure that I can win easily! 
I think it is too hard to examine an AT between lvl 1-11. MM is the most overpowering between 1-11. MM has no endurance for one.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
This is one reason why I've suggested that the base modifier boost could be decreased to about 0.75/0.95 (totally an estimate, there) and Domination's boost made around 25%. While that would not be as huge a boost as current, prior to level 10, it would soften the blow somewhat.
I've really found that prior to 10 there is not a huge performance problem with Dominators, but when you do get that Domination boost, it's pretty much overkill. You still have the feeling of having to "earn" it by using your attacks at their lower level, so you feel it when you are having to use weaker and weaker attacks just to get to Domination again. It's also true that weaker attacks are less Endurance efficient, and thus you will not be having to activate Domination quite as often just for the End recharge.
Finally, for those sets with a damage boost, I'd like to add that the damage boost will itself be higher with a higher base modifier to boost. This only applies to Fire, Thorns and Electric, but all three can get their build up at level 16, just when by this analysis the difference is really starting to kick in.
The early game is pretty fast compared to the over-20 game. I'd hate to lose damage later on just to soften the blow in the early teens... remember, most people will never be permadom at any level so a 25% damage boost in Domination and a lower base damage would still be worse than a higher base and Domination only providing mez protection and extra control.
Honestly, Dominators even in the teens will be better than some Controllers and Defenders so I don't see it being that big a deal. The teen levels are only a few days of play, compared to weeks or months at 20+.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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most people will never be permadom at any level so a 25% damage boost in Domination and a lower base damage would still be worse than a higher base and Domination only providing mez protection and extra control.
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Very true. The only advantages to keeping some of the damage effect in Domination is that there will be less change to the expected effect, and that if non-Domination turns out to be too powerful, it would be a better solution than nerfing damage overall, resulting in a lower damage than current perma-Dom.
I'm not anticipating that the new Domination will be too powerful, but let's not ignore the possibility. Also, while 25% Domination would not be better than no damage boost Domination for non-Perma Doms, it WOULD still be better than current Domination. It would be a boost, just not as much of one.
It's really up to Castle to determine which solution bets fits the result he wants.
Nice post! What's the latest word on these changes? Are they going live with I15 or have they been pushed back?
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Nice post! What's the latest word on these changes? Are they going live with I15 or have they been pushed back?
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See the "Dom Revamp on Test" post.
As we all know, it can often a pain to play many ATs or powerset combinations early on. Power choices are lacking, travel is slow, accuracy is bad (although less than before), and endurance tends to vanish in a flash. I was curious as to how the domination and damage scalar changes would affect this region of play. So, I decided to find out.
At first glance, it would seem like an easy question to answer: nobody is a permadom in the pre-20 realm, so low level doms must be getting a pretty large damage buff, right? As it turns out, though, the answer is a bit more complicated than that.
The first complication is that at low levels, most attacks aren't very well slotted for damage. The normal slotting for the ED cap on damage tends to dilute the effect of current domination somewhat - going from 195% damage to 270% damage isn't as dramatic of a change as going from 100% damage to 175% is. So, the lack of damage slotting at early levels will tend to make the current domination's damage buff more important. Additionally, the multiplicative nature of enhancements yields a larger absolute boost when applied to a higher base modifier, so one of the major benefits of the new system won't come into play until later.
The other issue is that ATs don't start out with their final damage modifiers. While doms, for example, end up with modifiers of 0.65 ranged and 0.75 melee, at level one their modifiers are 0.93 ranged and 0.95 melee. This pattern holds for all ATs: damage modifiers start near 1.0 for both ranged and melee, and then slowly decay to their final values, reached at level 20. This will tend to dilute the effect of the new damage modifier buff, since low level doms actually had almost those damage scalars already.
Looking at the modifier tables available on city of data, I worked out the current damage modifiers for doms from level 1 to 20, ranged and melee. I also analyzed the patterns and figured out what the 1-20 damage modifiers should be for the proposed 1.05 melee/0.95 ranged modifier version:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Modifiers:
Current Proposed
Level Ranged Melee Ranged Melee
1 0.93 0.95 0.99 1.01
2 0.927 0.947 0.990 1.011
3 0.919 0.942 0.988 1.012
4 0.912 0.938 0.987 1.013
5 0.905 0.932 0.986 1.014
6 0.895 0.925 0.985 1.015
7 0.878 0.912 0.983 1.018
8 0.860 0.900 0.980 1.020
9 0.842 0.888 0.977 1.023
10 0.825 0.875 0.975 1.025
11 0.808 0.862 0.973 1.028
12 0.790 0.850 0.970 1.030
13 0.773 0.838 0.968 1.033
14 0.755 0.825 0.965 1.035
15 0.738 0.813 0.963 1.038
16 0.720 0.800 0.960 1.040
17 0.703 0.788 0.958 1.043
18 0.685 0.775 0.955 1.045
19 0.667 0.763 0.953 1.048
20+ 0.650 0.750 0.950 1.050
</pre><hr />
Using this data, I worked out the damage a hypothetical dominator would deal by using a scale 1.0 attack at each level from 1 to 20, with the following assumptions:
- For the current numbers, domination is used every time it recharges for a net damage buff of 33.75%.
- Attacks are slotted with no damage below level 12, with one level 15 damage DO from level 12 to level 16, two level 20 damage DOs from level 17 to level 21, and either two or three even level damage SOs (or level 25/30 common damage IOs - more or less the same) from level 22 on.
The damage is presented in scalar form: a damage number of 0.95, for example, means the damage that would be done by a character with a damage modifier of 0.95 using a scale 1.0 attack. This is done to suppress the overall scaling upward of damage with increasing level, in order to focus on the ways in which this upwards scaling varies in the two schemes.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Damage:
Current Proposed
Level Ranged Melee Ranged Melee
1 1.244 1.271 0.99 1.01
2 1.239 1.267 0.990 1.011
3 1.230 1.261 0.988 1.012
4 1.220 1.254 0.987 1.013
5 1.211 1.247 0.986 1.014
6 1.197 1.237 0.985 1.015
7 1.174 1.220 0.983 1.018
8 1.150 1.204 0.980 1.020
9 1.127 1.187 0.977 1.023
10 1.103 1.170 0.975 1.025
11 1.080 1.154 0.973 1.028
12 1.208 1.300 1.156 1.227
13 1.175 1.274 1.145 1.222
14 1.142 1.248 1.134 1.216
15 1.109 1.222 1.123 1.210
16 1.071 1.190 1.104 1.196
17 1.209 1.355 1.324 1.442
18 1.167 1.321 1.305 1.428
19 1.126 1.287 1.286 1.414
20 1.086 1.253 1.267 1.400
21 1.064 1.228 1.234 1.364
22+ 1.302 1.503 1.583 1.750 (2 SOs)
22+ 1.487 1.716 1.853 2.048 (3 SOs)
</pre><hr />
Looking at these values, several interesting facts are apparent. The net damage under the old system is actually noticeably higher than for the new system for the levels 1 to 11. In the 12-16 range, the two are roughly equal, and for levels 17 and up, the new system gives higher damage - and by quite a bit once SOs are slotted.
Effectively, what we're seeing here is the high early scalars and un-diluted domination buff combining to allow the current scheme to outweigh the new scheme's increased scalars in the very low levels. As the current scalars decay towards their final levels and more enhancements are slotted, however, the increasing gap between the new and old schemes combined with the higher absolute boost of enhancements on the new scheme allows it to first match, and then surpass, the old scheme. I did suspect that this would be the result. After all, the advantage of the new scheme is largely nullified at low levels where the scalars were already close to 1 anyway. How do we interpret this, though?
The most obvious conclusion to draw would be that the new changes are actually a net decrease in performance at the very low levels, and only become a buff once the scalars diverge significantly and decent amounts of damage enhancement are slotted. There are a few subtleties that occur to me, however.
First, this presumes that domination is used every 200 seconds, on the dot, as soon as it recharges. For a variety of reasons, that may not be a reasonable assumption in the low levels. In some situations, it may make more sense to hold onto dom for a period of time in anticipation of a tough fight. As well, endurance problems, more frequent faceplanting, and/or the need to rest or run away from a fight may sometimes make it difficult to build domination quickly enough. Finally, many simply don't play that way out of habit, forgetfulness, or preference.
Second, and similar in some ways to the first, is the way the new changes free you to use domination when you feel it would be the most useful. Since there is no pressure to use dom for the damage boost, it is more likely to be available for the dangerous encounters, which seems like it would be a hard-to-quantify, but real, boost in performance.
Third, there is the question of how important the 1-11 range is? It is the first exposure to the AT, and hence plays a big part in setting a first impression for new dom players. Losing damage is not a good thing from this perspective, although that may be compensated some by the use of the inherent perhaps seeming less difficult to newbies. On the other hand, that level range does tend to fly past pretty quickly - the teens are where it gets more draggy, at least for me. This is a question of perception, though, and thus inherently difficult to quantify.
With all of this, what is the net effect? It's hard to say: damage does go down, but there are some counterbalancing but difficult to quantify effects which may make make up for it. I tentatively feel that it probably works out as more or less a net wash, but that seems like it would be dependent at least in part on the playstyle and preferences of the player in question. One thing is for sure, though: it's not a substantial net buff like it is for higher levels. However, it is one of castle's design goals to "# Improve "feel" of low level play." (see, for example, this post) Does this qualify? I'm not sure it does, but it depends on exactly what he means by the 'feel' of the low levels - and I suppose that's something that only he knows at this point (or there may be other changes coming which we don't know about yet). It does seem, though, that there may be something here which should get looked at.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!