I'm not a number cruncher here but, the first thing that comes to mind:
+DEF = Mobs have a harder time hitting you.
-ToHit = Mobs have a harder time hitting everybody.
That would be my conclusion.
Due to the way the game calculates to-hit rolls, they are identical. So a 20% to-hit debuff would give the same protection as a 20% defense buff. The difference is though, that some enemies will resist your to-hit debuffs, so they'll be less effective. Other enemies will use defense debuffs on you too though, so it's kind of a crapshoot. I'm not sure which of the two is more common though.
45% defense is the softcap for everyone. Once you have 45% defense, enemies chance to hit you is floored, and any more doesn't get you anything (except more wiggle room if you get debuffed).
ToHit is better, generally speaking.
Some enemies have resistance to it (to some degree or another) but it is functionally identical to applying +Def to your whole team. Even 5% +def can make a -huge- difference if someone is near to the soft-cap.
Self +Def only protects you. However team +Def is just as nice as target -ToHit. For best results: Combine the two!
-Rachel-
They are identical at base, but +def I find is usually better. That is because as the enemies you fight get higher and higher level than you, they resist more and more of a -acc debuff. AV's also have extra resistance on top of that, scaling up to something like 85% resistance at level 50.
So against a level 50 AV your -20% acc debuff amounts to a grand -3%. If the AV is higher level than you, it is cut even more.
You can always test yourself as well how well each works against what you normally fight, just watch the to-hit numbers in your combat window before and after.
Team +def is greater than mob -tohit of the same value. If you're the only one getting defense, the -tohit helps the team more, though.
The way that the game calculates it, a tohit debuff is identical to a defense buff of the same value on the target, but the issue is that tohit debuffs are resisted by the purple patch (ie, less effective against mobs higher level than you) and defense buffs are not. Tohit debuffs are also subject to AV debuff resistance, so a 25% tohit debuff is around 3.75% on a level 50 AV.
Now, the fact that most +defense powers have smaller values than the tohit debuffs causes the actual practice to even out or lean towards debuffing until you start running into AVs - there aren't any +25% defense powers and plenty of -25% (or higher) tohit debuffs.
Edit: bah, beat to it. Also, since it's in the OP which I just skimmed, the Corruptor defense cap is 175% - anything above 45% only matters when fighting +6 or higher mobs, dealing with defense debuffs, or mobs having tohit buffs. I've hit the cap several times (Gift of Defense is just insane).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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in my opinion -to hit is better.
they are in effect, but each has pros over the other, - to hit having more.
+def wont get resisted by the mob
-to hit helps everyone
-to hit has an effect on all damage types
alot of enemies will debuff your defense, which if you rely on it alot will be catostrophic, while enemies can buff their hit, its not nearly as many.
scenarios
a monster with a 100% to hit attacks you with a smashing attack, you have 50% smash def. you, over time, are taking 50% damage from this attack. you are using no to hit debuff at this time.
1) someone hits you with an attack that lowers your defense by 5%, this is actually a net total of 10% more damage taken, and while it works the same way with -to hit and acc buffs, thats a lot less common.
2) someone else gets aggro and he is back up to full damage
3) he buffs to hit, which is less than debuffing defense because your defense applies to how many sides of the die were replaced with hit rolls, meaning his +10% hit buff only gives him 5% more damage over time.
the same mob has his to hit debuffed by 50%, he is doing a total of 50% damage over time. you have no defense at this time.
1) he debuffs your defense by 10%, 10% of nothing is nothing, so this does nothing and there is nothing to stop you from making this mob into nothing by killing him like it were nothing.
2) someone else gets aggro and he does 50% damage
3) he buffs his to hit by 5% because 5% is 10% of the total (50%) he increses his damage output by 10%
scenario 3 for -to hit is the same in effect as scenario 1 of +def, but both the others are in -to hit's favor.
looking at this... i feel like im wrong somewhere... im sure someone will pick up on it though, im not very good at this brainy ****
But that's also a logical fallacy... AS an enemy scales to higher level than you, so too does his accuracy. The purple patch is all but irrelevant at that point, since +def is overcome by better accuracy and -tohit is better resisted thanks to his level.
Ultimately the only deciding factor is the target's -inherent- resistances to tohit or bonuses to accuracy.
So yes. +Def is better against an AV, generally speaking. But you'll fight more non-resistant Minions, Lieutenants, and Bosses as you progress through the game than AVs or resistant enemies.
So with that out of the way Team +Def and Enemy -ToHit are functionally identical, even with higher level enemies. It's only in specific instances where a target has greater Accuracy or Greater Resistance that one becomes better than the other.
Actually -that- is a logical fallacy... resistance to ToHit Debuffs is typically performed by creating overly accurate enemies. Such as the Overseers. AVs are the only enemy I'm aware of that SPECIFICALLY has ToHit Debuff resistance. So +Def and +ToHit are functionally the same about MOST enemies with high accuracy, as well.
-Rachel-
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But that's also a logical fallacy... AS an enemy scales to higher level than you, so too does his accuracy. The purple patch is all but irrelevant at that point, since +def is overcome by better accuracy and -tohit is better resisted thanks to his level.
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This is completely false and a logical fallacy of its own.
The accuracy is applied after and tohit/defense calculations, and so affects both of +defense and -tohit the same way, so you want the higher number after the debuff resistance is applied. Keep in mind a +3 mob resists the debuff to the point where it's 65% effective, making defense buffs look much more attractive if you're running on higher difficulty.
An equivalent base percentage defense buff will outdo a tohit debuff against any mob higher level than you, AV or not. They're just usually smaller than the tohit debuff values.
Here.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Damn.... That's dash cunning.
... Well Played, Siolfir... Well Played...
-Rachel-
Thanks all. Very handy info. I've got a Controller at the soft cap defensively (45%) and I'm considering the same for my Corruptor. Of course, with my Controller it came down to working the system a bit more, my Corruptor is going to be greatly hampered by endurance issues -- even with set bonuses.
Considering he's only level 26 right now, I've got plenty of time to worry about it. Again, thanks!
By the way, the reason that "45% is the Defense softcap" is kind of nonintuitive and difficult to explain. Defense gets overcomplex in a hurry, but I'll try to keep it nearly simple.
A PvE critter has a 50% Base To Hit, from which Defense is subtracted. The result of THAT is multiplied by whatever bonuses due to level and rank exist.
An even-con minion has no bonuses- just the 50% Base- so 40% Defense would cut that to 10% and 45% would cut that to 5%.
Lets say some slathering +3 Archvillain is at 90% To Hit.* That's actually 50% Base To Hit times 1.8 for rank (AV) and level (+3). So if you had 40% Defense that would be 10% To Hit times 1.8, or 18%, and if you had 45% Defense that would be 5% base times 1.8 or 9%. You cannot reduce the base below 5% and you can't reduce the final below 5%.
I hope that wasn't hopelessly obscure!
* I don't know the true number but this makes for easy math.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Lets say some slathering +3 Archvillain is at 90% To Hit.* That's actually 50% Base To Hit times 1.8 for rank (AV) and level (+3). So if you had 40% Defense that would be 10% To Hit times 1.8, or 18%, and if you had 45% Defense that would be 5% base times 1.8 or 9%. You cannot reduce the base below 5% and you can't reduce the final below 5%.
I hope that wasn't hopelessly obscure!
* I don't know the true number but this makes for easy math.
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It's a net 1.95x accuracy modifier for a "97.5%" chance that gets capped to 95, for anyone curious.
This also means that each point of +tohit or defense modifies it by that amount, too, so that at 45% defense the mob has a 9.75% chance to hit (which is as low as you can get it).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Hey folks. I'm looking for someone to explain to me the difference between +DEF and debuffing a MOB with -ToHit. I'm working on a Corruptor who's tired of dying, so I'm going to work on some defense -- be it with a better -ToHit offense or a better self +DEF. I'm well aware that adding -ToHit helps the whole team, but let's not worry about that for the moment. I'm just looking at understanding the difference within the game of how hit rolls look at +DEF and -ToHit rolls.
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As has been pointed out by others, in regard to how the two function in the basic equation, there is no difference.
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I'm working with Dark as my Secondary, so I have a couple of debuffing opportunities. With two powers, I can apply 20% -ToHit to my enemies. Does that equate to a +20% DEF (ignoring buffs)?
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Yes, and no.
Versus +0 minions, +Def and -ToHit are identical.
Fighting anything higher, in level or tier, -ToHit is reduced.
Lieutenants inherently resist 10% of -ToHit. Bosses inherently resist 20% -ToHit. And +1s and higher of all tiers resist all debuffs (10% at +1, 20% at +2, 35% at +3, 52% at +4, 70% at +5, 85% at +6, 92% at +7, 95% at +8, 96% at +9 (here onward, it continues to increase by 1% per level)). Also note that these resistances to -ToHit trump even powers flagged as irresistible.
So if you're fighting a +2 lieutenant, your 20% -ToHit becomes [20 * 0.90] * 0.80 = 14.4%, whereas your Defense remains at 20%. That lieutenant also has Accuracy modifiers for both rank and tier, but that affects -ToHit and +Def equally, it doesn't specifically impact one or the other.
Bottom line: If you're using -ToHit, you want some extra -ToHit or +Def to compensate for the reductions due to level/tier. In my experience, though, combining the two is very effective, even accounting for the devaluation of -ToHit.
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Finally, what are the caps for a Corruptor on defense?
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Greater than 45%, just like every other AT, but going over 45% is essentially pointless unless you're fighting something that debuffs Defense and you have no Defense Debuff resistance.
You also can't reduce a critter's hit chance below 5% using -ToHit. Even if you apply 100% -ToHit, it still won't reduce the critter below 5%.
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the same mob has his to hit debuffed by 50%, he is doing a total of 50% damage over time. you have no defense at this time.
1) he debuffs your defense by 10%, 10% of nothing is nothing, so this does nothing and there is nothing to stop you from making this mob into nothing by killing him like it were nothing.
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Yes there is a fallacy in your thinking. I'm not inclined to butt my head against the equations for calculating whether or not an attack hits. So my 2 bits:
So in this scenario, 10% of nothing is NOT nothing-- you now have -10% defense and are more likely to get hit by the next attack. Debuffs are subtractive after any resistance to that debuff is applied.
(QR)
If you, personally don't want to get hit on a squishy, choose to-hit debuffs. If you have, for example, Cold Domination- your buffs aren't reduced by the enemies' debuff resists.. but the shields don't target yourself at all. With -tohit, YOU are protected as well as your allies.
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(QR)
If you, personally don't want to get hit on a squishy, choose to-hit debuffs. If you have, for example, Cold Domination- your buffs aren't reduced by the enemies' debuff resists.. but the shields don't target yourself at all. With -tohit, YOU are protected as well as your allies.
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The point about Cold Domination is valid, but there are other means of getting defense that apply to the person using the power (Force Field Generator, Scorpion Shield, set bonuses, and so on); even Cold Domination has Arctic Fog for a 3.75% base defense to all 3 positional types.
Since he's talking about a /Dark Corruptor I'd aim for a bit of defense and stacked debuffing, simply because the debuffing is a lot easier to come by in those powersets. It's resisted, but the number you'll be able to achieve will be higher. My Dark/Cold doesn't do bad for herself with only around 10% defense (Hover + Arctic Fog + Steadfast Protection unique) against most missions because of the stacking debuffs in the primary.
However, with all else being even on the % you can reach, I'd rather have defense any day, and if they can afford it and aren't crippling the build aiming for +defense set bonuses and going with a couple of debuffs will likely get them close to softcapped against ranged and possibly AoE for anything short of an AV even after the debuffs are resisted.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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My defensive powers will consist of (all totals after enhancements):
Shadow Fall - 5.94%
Weave - 6.74%
Hover - 3.37%
Combat Jumping - 3.37%
Maneuvers - 4.16%
My -ToHit powers will consist of (all totals after enhancements):
Twilight Grasp - 7.92%
Darkest Night - 23.8%
Fearsome Stare - 23.8%
So my total defense without set bonuses is 23.6% and -ToHit is 55.5%.
I know that sounds crazy to some, but I run a Scraptroller (Illusion / Kinetics) that I enjoy immensely because I can stand toe-to-toe with just about anything. Maybe it won't work for my Corruptor, but I won't know until I try. On paper, ignoring endurance concerns, this character is going to be wicked powerful. My Controllers biggest downfall was the inability to debuff AVs, so I could never overcome their regen rate, and they (typically) couldn't do enough concurrent damage to me for me to be unable to heal from.
That said, I'm not trying to build some sort of AV killer; but I would like a character I can plant into typical battle situations and live -- which I feel I can build.
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My defensive powers will consist of (all totals after enhancements):
Shadow Fall - 5.94%
Weave - 6.74%
Hover - 3.37%
Combat Jumping - 3.37%
Maneuvers - 4.16%
My -ToHit powers will consist of (all totals after enhancements):
Twilight Grasp - 7.92%
Darkest Night - 23.8%
Fearsome Stare - 23.8%
So my total defense without set bonuses is 23.6% and -ToHit is 55.5%.
I know that sounds crazy to some, but I run a Scraptroller (Illusion / Kinetics) that I enjoy immensely because I can stand toe-to-toe with just about anything. Maybe it won't work for my Corruptor, but I won't know until I try. On paper, ignoring endurance concerns, this character is going to be wicked powerful. My Controllers biggest downfall was the inability to debuff AVs, so I could never overcome their regen rate, and they (typically) couldn't do enough concurrent damage to me for me to be unable to heal from.
That said, I'm not trying to build some sort of AV killer; but I would like a character I can plant into typical battle situations and live -- which I feel I can build.
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1. My endurance bar weeps for you. Base endurance recovery is 1.67 endurance per second. The toggles alone add up to a base 2.015 endurance per second, you'll need ~+20% recovery just to not lose endurance running them.
2. If you plan on fighting on highest difficulty (+2s and +3s) the tohit debuff will be -44.4% (+2) or -36.08% (+3). Having the option to have all of those defense powers is nice if they fit into your build without too many sacrifices, but I'd recommend monitoring your defense and not running Weave unless it's dropped below 10% for most normal encounters, and you really don't even need the total you get for everything else. This is a clear case of the sets providing far more debuffing than buffing, and you may as well work with that.
3. Against even level AVs the tohit debuffs will be at -8.325%, which is when the defense is going to help (and why you may want to keep it).
4. If focused on it with the defensive power selections you can reach the defense softcap through set bonuses; Ninjitsu only has numbers around that and my DM/Nin Stalker is softcapped. This isn't exactly needed with the tohit debuffing available and will only help in AV encounters. I just wanted to point out that it's possible in case you wanted to try for it.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Yeah, my Controller runs seven toggles. I make an audible weeping noise anytime I miss with Transference. Running a tightrope of endurance is nothing new to me. Granted, this will be the next level of pain, I'm still up for the challenge. I'm hoping with a combo of Power Sink and Conserve Power, I'll be ok. Then again, this is all on paper at this point. Long way to go.
Hey folks. I'm looking for someone to explain to me the difference between +DEF and debuffing a MOB with -ToHit. I'm working on a Corruptor who's tired of dying, so I'm going to work on some defense -- be it with a better -ToHit offense or a better self +DEF. I'm well aware that adding -ToHit helps the whole team, but let's not worry about that for the moment. I'm just looking at understanding the difference within the game of how hit rolls look at +DEF and -ToHit rolls.
I'm working with Dark as my Secondary, so I have a couple of debuffing opportunities. With two powers, I can apply 20% -ToHit to my enemies. Does that equate to a +20% DEF (ignoring buffs)?
Finally, what are the caps for a Corruptor on defense? I'm guessing 45% is the max, but I'd love someone to confirm or correct. Thanks!