MM Ninja Pet Woes

Well I had THOUGHT that the recharge change to pets had solved all the MM pet woes. I saw my bruiser behaving better and getting into the thick of combat and even my Assault Bot was more peppy.

It seems, however, that the Jounin didn't get the memo. Sure they will now run into melee range...but they will still sometimes just stand there and do NOTHING even when they have to have SOME power ready for use.

I teamed with my SG redside this afternoon and it was slightly embarrassing to watch my Jounin shoot his dart...run into melee range, do a Gambler's Cut once...then just stand there and follow the mob's direction without ever executing another attack for a good long while. Then in another instance he does 2 Soaring Dragon's in a row...followed by nothing but Gambler's Cuts.

When are we ever actually going to get pets that behave correctly?

Are you taking damage? Do you keep them on aggressive or on defensive?

I've found that anytime I regroup them by giving them a follow/defense command, it takes them a bit to get back into the game. I may have to take a couple hits before they get the idea. Sometimes just the mob making an aggressive move is enough for them to react but more often than not it takes them a bit after the command to get moving again.

When they just don't seem to want to fight and just stand there, I'll knock everything back and once the mob(s) are on the ground I'll give them attack/defensive and once the mob is ready to attack me I hit follow/defensive to mitigate the damage, and I'll keep alternating that til the mob is dead, and hopefully when the next mob aggros theyll just go into the mix rather than be prompted.

This was on a mob that I gave a direct attack order on. I was on a team with a brute and stalker. When we would hit a spawn...I would lead in with my Jounin to attack the most dangerous Lt in the spawn.

I'm not a passive or new MM player. I'm always managing my pets and giving them attack/defend/follow commands where appropriate. The Jounin just stopped attacking for long periods.

And his cycling of attacks was pretty retarded as well...he'd spam Gambler's Cut sometimes and never use Soaring Dragon or Sting of the Wasp. Other times I saw him wait for Soaring Dragon to recharge and use it twice in a row with no other attacks.

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This was on a mob that I gave a direct attack order on. I was on a team with a brute and stalker. When we would hit a spawn...I would lead in with my Jounin to attack the most dangerous Lt in the spawn.

I'm not a passive or new MM player. I'm always managing my pets and giving them attack/defend/follow commands where appropriate. The Jounin just stopped attacking for long periods.

And his cycling of attacks was pretty retarded as well...he'd spam Gambler's Cut sometimes and never use Soaring Dragon or Sting of the Wasp. Other times I saw him wait for Soaring Dragon to recharge and use it twice in a row with no other attacks.

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I have a zombie and Bot MM, haven't tried Ninja yet but I definitely will make one and report back on any results. If this is MMwide and not just some flakey occurence maybe by a specific mission arc then it might be worthy of some bug reports or suggestions on improving the ninjas to be on par with other henchmen reactions.

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I have a zombie and Bot MM, haven't tried Ninja yet but I definitely will make one and report back on any results. If this is MMwide and not just some flakey occurence maybe by a specific mission arc then it might be worthy of some bug reports or suggestions on improving the ninjas to be on par with other henchmen reactions.

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Yeah...maybe its some other type of problem going on. I know I've been very happy with the way the bruiser is working now. He really keeps on going and doesn't let up. No idea why we still get the long pauses with ninjas. They are the pet set that mostly can't afford to just sit still...damage is all they have going for them.

The genin don't seem to have this issue...just the jounin.

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I have a zombie and Bot MM, haven't tried Ninja yet but I definitely will make one and report back on any results. If this is MMwide and not just some flakey occurence maybe by a specific mission arc then it might be worthy of some bug reports or suggestions on improving the ninjas to be on par with other henchmen reactions.

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Yeah...maybe its some other type of problem going on. I know I've been very happy with the way the bruiser is working now. He really keeps on going and doesn't let up. No idea why we still get the long pauses with ninjas. They are the pet set that mostly can't afford to just sit still...damage is all they have going for them.

The genin don't seem to have this issue...just the jounin.

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What is your build so I can replicate what you have.

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What is your build so I can replicate what you have.

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Its a ninja/pain.

He's only level 12...so I have the first 3 empathy powers. I also have snap shot, aimed shot, call genin and call jounin of course. That's about it.

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What is your build so I can replicate what you have.

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Its a ninja/pain.

He's only level 12...so I have the first 3 empathy powers. I also have snap shot, aimed shot, call genin and call jounin of course. That's about it.

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Okies I'll mark this thread and I'll make one and hopefully by tomorrow have some results similar to yours.

I'd leveled a Ninja/TA MM up to 33, maybe even 34.

I HATED the pets.

Genin: Oh, hey! You have TWO Shuriken now?! Man, what could be better?! Oh, right... Staying out of range, and NOT getting yourselves killed in one hit.

Jounin: You guys get HIDE, so you can Critical Hit?! Fantast-- Wait, no! Don't use Poison Dart! Stop it! Stop using SotW for your Criticals! SAQEEWTQAADFEWA

Oni: Alright, now go do what you do! No... No, not fireball... No, not Breath of Fire... Do the holds! Use RAIN of fire! DAMMIT, LISTEN TO YOUR MASTER! Ya' know what? Screw you, just go into melee and Fire Katana it... NO, NOT FIRE BLAST!

LVL 6 ATM.

One thing you didn't mention that I do not like is that after training there is no visual cue. On bots they glow red and they have devices that animate. On Zombies they emit vapors.

I don't see anything on Ninjas.

That's a pretty odd way to look at your Mastermind, Sigium. The Genin are melee henchmen, so expecting them to stay out of melee and fire is pretty much opposite to the intended purpose of the changes, and I'm not sure about the Oni as my Ninja Mastermind doesn't have access to him yet, but I'd say I very much prefer him to use his attacks rather than holds and Rain of Fire.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

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That's a pretty odd way to look at your Mastermind, Sigium. The Genin are melee henchmen, so expecting them to stay out of melee and fire is pretty much opposite to the intended purpose of the changes, and I'm not sure about the Oni as my Ninja Mastermind doesn't have access to him yet, but I'd say I very much prefer him to use his attacks rather than holds and Rain of Fire.

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Well, they're so damn squishy that it just makes it a suicide mission to send them in. Even Punks have Resistance with an Enforcer or Two on the scene, you know?

And then Smoke Flash? Pffft... Genin waste it with sub-par damage, Jounin are already IN Stealth, and the Oni is best used for Control, so it's wasted for them.

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That's a pretty odd way to look at your Mastermind, Sigium. The Genin are melee henchmen, so expecting them to stay out of melee and fire is pretty much opposite to the intended purpose of the changes, and I'm not sure about the Oni as my Ninja Mastermind doesn't have access to him yet, but I'd say I very much prefer him to use his attacks rather than holds and Rain of Fire.

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Well, they're so damn squishy that it just makes it a suicide mission to send them in. Even Punks have Resistance with an Enforcer or Two on the scene, you know?

And then Smoke Flash? Pffft... Genin waste it with sub-par damage, Jounin are already IN Stealth, and the Oni is best used for Control, so it's wasted for them.

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Get the Presence Power Pool... It will let you bodyguard and keep your pets alive.

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That's a pretty odd way to look at your Mastermind, Sigium. The Genin are melee henchmen, so expecting them to stay out of melee and fire is pretty much opposite to the intended purpose of the changes, and I'm not sure about the Oni as my Ninja Mastermind doesn't have access to him yet, but I'd say I very much prefer him to use his attacks rather than holds and Rain of Fire.

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Well, they're so damn squishy that it just makes it a suicide mission to send them in. Even Punks have Resistance with an Enforcer or Two on the scene, you know?

And then Smoke Flash? Pffft... Genin waste it with sub-par damage, Jounin are already IN Stealth, and the Oni is best used for Control, so it's wasted for them.

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Get the Presence Power Pool... It will let you bodyguard and keep your pets alive.

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An easier way? I can choose a Primary that doesn't suck.

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And then Smoke Flash? Pffft... Genin waste it with sub-par damage, Jounin are already IN Stealth, and the Oni is best used for Control, so it's wasted for them.

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But... Most of the Oni's powers are attacks. Fire Breath, Fire Blast, two Fire Sword attacks and Rain of Fire, to all of two controls, both of them coming with later upgrades. Isn't that like wanting to use the Spec Ops for control when their powerful Flashbang Grenades and Tear Gas Grenades each have a recharge of, like, four minutes? Say, the Lich I can see using for control, with more than half his powers being that, but the Oni?

As for the Jouning, yes he's always cloaked, but he's not doing criticals all the time, is he? I thought his stealth was identical to the Spec Ops version, where they'd just be invisible but not actually get damage benefits out of it. Red Tomax's City of Data is showing a MySQL error, so I can't get consistent stats on their Hide.

As for the Genin, the Shuriken are pretty weak attacks. Yes, I agree, they're squishy, but isn't that what your secondary is for? Their melee attacks are drastically superior to their Shuriken, at least they were last time I played mine. Plus, they have a melee AI, theoretically the same as the Jounin. They're not ranged henchmen like Soldiers or Droids, they're melee henchmen like Zombies. And they're not actually defenceless. They have SOME amount of defence to their name. I want to say 5%, but City of Data is showing a MySQL error and I can't run the game from work.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

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That's a pretty odd way to look at your Mastermind, Sigium. The Genin are melee henchmen, so expecting them to stay out of melee and fire is pretty much opposite to the intended purpose of the changes, and I'm not sure about the Oni as my Ninja Mastermind doesn't have access to him yet, but I'd say I very much prefer him to use his attacks rather than holds and Rain of Fire.

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Well, they're so damn squishy that it just makes it a suicide mission to send them in. Even Punks have Resistance with an Enforcer or Two on the scene, you know?

And then Smoke Flash? Pffft... Genin waste it with sub-par damage, Jounin are already IN Stealth, and the Oni is best used for Control, so it's wasted for them.

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Ninjas/Forcefield or Traps is the way to go. Hell, even dark would work well. The defense on the pets isn't impressive, but it stacks up with defense that you get from your secondaries.

Your Genin are melee, and your Oni is an attack pet. That's pretty much all there is two it. Oni is loaded to the teeth with damage powers. One single target hold and one single target immobilize a controller does not make. Hell, I wish they'd get rid of ring of fire on the Oni. He uses it too damn much.

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Ninjas/Forcefield or Traps is the way to go. Hell, even dark would work well. The defense on the pets isn't impressive, but it stacks up with defense that you get from your secondaries.

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Mine is Ninja/Storm (sort of a classical anime ninja-wizard) and I suspect the Genin's defence would stack well with Hurricane's to-hit debuff. It already seems to stack well Steamy Mist's defence buff, though I'm not sure if that doesn't suppress. It's hard to imagine how that would work on a mechanical level, though.

Other than that, I agree with your assessment on what the Ninja henchmen are.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Strange. I'm currently working on a Ninja/Storm, after having played with Necro/Poison and Mercs/Dark.

I find their behavior decent. If you just position your gang right on melee, you can simply jump targets fast and they'll consistently remain on melee. One time or another, yeah, they get cranky and decide to do something stupid. But you would do that too, if you were a ninja working for minimum wage.

I'm 27 now, and I had a good time. But I'm one of the crazy ones that prefer melee pets over ranged. Even when I buffet enemies around, the gang usually stay up close (provided they started the fight on melee).

My guess it was just some sort of indisposition with the map's geometry.

I've noticed that if you switch orders on pets every now and then, they'll bug out and just kind of stare at you blankly no matter what you've told them to do. Not for long, but for a few seconds at least.

This is usually only after you change their orders in-combat, though; If you give them a direct order to attack something before combat starts (as the first thing you do, for example) and they're still not doing anything, that may well be a bug. I'd document and report.

Setting Henchmen to either defensive or follow (I'm not sure which) will "disable" their brains for approximately 10 seconds, during which time they will not attack or respond to attackers and just follow you around. I suspect it was a feature to keep people from switching to and from Bodyguard all the time, since going Bodyguard disables your offence for a short amount of time.

Another point to consider is that henchmen employ two completely different sets of AI for in-combat and out-of-combat behaviour. In combat, they follow their ranged/melee AI's orders, obey Fear mechanics and sort of follow your orders. Out of combat, they revert to what looks like standard Hostage auto-follow and will ignore any effect that doesn't put them in combat mode. So for instance a Burn patch or a red crystal in combat will make Henchmen scatter like cockroaches, out of combat they will ignore the "avoid" effect and take damage like it's not even happening.

As well, getting NPCs "stuck" in ranged or melee mindsets is something present in conventional NPCs. For instance, low-grade Hellions will often stand back and fire their handguns repeatedly, but approaching them and causing them to hit you in melee will then force them to chase you and NOT use their handguns again. This is particularly useful for a Hovering character, who can Hover in melee range, wait for enemies to take a swing, then Hover back up and enemies will circle below him like wolves, but not actually DO anything because they want to use melee attacks but can't.

AI is a curious thing

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.