Since you can't define Fun and don't seem to have the faintest idea how I play, after an evening of playing my plant/kin, I don't think I can provide you with a suggestion that will fit your predefined notion of fun. On the other hand, I can note that I don't like any of your ideas because they're fixing problems that only exist when you deal with bad players, including the player of the kin.
I didn't bother defining "fun" because that isn't the point of the post. Quite honestly, I thought that in the only MMO that's managed to make basic gameplay interesting I'd be able to make the axiomatic statement that maintaining single target buffs on short timers wasn't fun (in comparison to, really, every other thing every AT does.)
If you can actually help me understand what's redeeming about the mechanic, I would be interested.
@Dysc, on virtue:
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Please explain to me:
Why is pressing in my case 7 (an attack) any more or less fun that pressing 5 (speed boost) ?
Simply, why is using a buff less fun than using an attack ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Because not using an attack usually doesn't cause the team to complain?
I try to keep people Speed Boosted with my kin, but sometimes I am busy doing something else when it wears off. If I'm teaming with complete strangers it is inevitable that the instant SB wears off one or all members of the team will say SB PLZ or even just SB
What makes it unfun is a lot of people's attitude that Speed Boost is all you're good for and that you should spend your time doing nothing but buffing them.
So in short, it's not the power itself that becomes not fun, it's people's attitude toward it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Like I said I thought this was sort of obvious, but okay.
When you attack, or really use any ability that's targeted at an enemy or is pbaoe, you make a series of decisions about what position enemies/players are in, how much health they have, which of your cooldowns are up or down, and so on. There are probably a bunch of other choices involved I'm not mentioning, but the broad point is that all these mental processes that are going on basically combine to make the act of fighting mobs more interesting than just hitting the same six or eight keys on the keyboard over and over. My position is that this series of decisions is what makes the game "Fun."
Speed boost (and other ST buffs) remove all that by asking me to use the same, quickly recharging skill a set number of times on everyone whose name shows up in a green bar. It's repetitive, there's no real thought involved, and it consumes a nontrivial amount of the /kin player's time.
And it's made worse in SB's case because if you lapse at this little chore at all, people get frustrated with you.
@Dysc, on virtue:
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There is nothing wrong with Speed Boost. The problem is not speed boost, the problem is the players yelling "SB PLZ". Just do what I do when I am on my kin, ignore em. They can type SBPLZ until thier fingers bleed and I won't sb them until. A-I have time to SB everyone, usually between fights. B-If I see they are really having a hard time with thier end levels. C-They are the tank, stone gets even higher priority.
At some point it's a design failure, though. I mean, when I play a /kin I ignore those people too, but it's not like that's a good situation. I'm irritated, I'm sure they're irritated, and the team is less effective than it could be, cause SB is a really effective buff.
Which is why I think SB should be changed something other than a single target ability.
@Dysc, on virtue:
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I don't have a problem with Speed Boost in it's current state, but neither would I be abject to making it an AoE effect as long as it got an appropriate adjustment in all relevant areas to compensate.
While it may be trivial to keep a buff permanent on a team, the simple fact of the matter is that almost universally (exceptions do apply - there are guidelines, but not strict rules), a ST Buff is stronger then an Area buff.
Considering that Accelerate Metabolism does far more for a person then Speed Boost does, I wouldn't mind seeing Speed Boost retain it's current values with the same duration and recharge as Accelerate Metabolism (fair trade - losing the +damage for the increased recharge/recovery/speed) or for a longer duration/shorter recharge at the same values as Accelerate Metabolism grants now (30% for AM vs. 50% for SB).
However, I'm fairly certain that the main reason that it doesn't currently work in an AoE is because then it would actually affect the caster (single target buffs don't for the simple fact you can't target yourself), and it may be felt that coupled with the rest of the +Damage and +Recharge buffs in Kinetics (and the End Recovery tools), that may be far too much for one set. And I can't say that I would exactly disagree with this sentiment.
It would be nice, but in consideration for greater game balance, it may just be a pipe dream.
I love playing my /kin, but maybe its just a feature of the people i team with (mostly PUG's actually) that by level 50, they all seem to have no end problems and have slotted their toons in such a way as they dont NEED SB. Dont get me wrong, attacks coming up faster is a nice thing to have, but as well as a 70% +rch boost, i can give the whole team a +200% damage boost and deal out a few thousand damage myself.
That said, if someone's end is getting low and i have a moment i will SB them (or hit transference if its up), and anyone in Granite gets it out of courtesy. If someone gets in over their head and starts yelling "SB PLZ!" while i'm doing other stuff, they can wait till i'm done. If they die, i have veng, so the rest of the team can benefit from their stupidity.
Teams dont have to be "ZOMG WE KILL THAT MOB .9205 SECONDS FASTER IF WE ALL HAVE SB" for me to enjoy them. My advice to anyone expecting to be perma SB'd is to go buy a second account, roll a kin and make some macros.
I play this game for me, not to be a buff-bot for others. You dont like it? Find another kin. No-one has ever booted me from a team for playing like this.
I didn't really want a thread full of more arguing about the necessity of SB. SB's a great buff, and ideally we'd have a situation where it was quick and enjoyable to put up, rather than something that feels like a chore for so many people.
To yuri's point, I think that would make more sense if siphon speed wasn't already a very similar buff. Although I suppose if you were to make it pbaoe in some way, you could either just have it not affect the caster or apply the lesser siphon speed buff.
@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)
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SB's a great buff, and ideally we'd have a situation where it was quick and enjoyable to put up, rather than something that feels like a chore for so many people.
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"but it doesnt have to be a chore" seems pretty much the gist of our arguments. Just because your a kin doesnt mean you absolutely have to keep SB up on everyone in the team at all times. If you enjoy that playstyle, then go nuts, but ultimately its your call. It would be nice if it was a PBAoE, yes, but i knew what i was getting in to when i rolled the toon.
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To yuri's point, I think that would make more sense if siphon speed wasn't already a very similar buff. Although I suppose if you were to make it pbaoe in some way, you could either just have it not affect the caster or apply the lesser siphon speed buff.
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Similar, but not equivlant. Each time you apply Siphon Speed, you only get a 20% recharge boost. It's beyond trivial to stack it twice, especially if you happen to pick up Hasten (+70%). Adding another 30% or 50% on top of that means that, in two power activations, you suddenly have a total buff of 120% or 140%, which is more then enough to make Hasten and, I would imagine, the new Speed Boost permanent as well (assuming a 96% Recharge Reduction in both powers, for a total of 216% or 236%). And that's assuming you don't have Siphon Speed set up for Recharge as well (I don't, and I can still stack it).
And that's before we get into the real fun math (which the game isn't balanced around - specifically, IO Recharge bonuses).
Bit overpowered? I'd certainly say so. Two Kinetics on a team playing well together and buffing each other can be downright disgusting, and I know this from personal experience.
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At some point it's a design failure, though.
[/ QUOTE ]Keep saying it. I'm sure it'll become true eventually.
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To yuri's point, I think that would make more sense if siphon speed wasn't already a very similar buff. Although I suppose if you were to make it pbaoe in some way, you could either just have it not affect the caster or apply the lesser siphon speed buff.
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Similar, but not equivlant. Each time you apply Siphon Speed, you only get a 20% recharge boost. It's beyond trivial to stack it twice, especially if you happen to pick up Hasten (+70%). Adding another 30% or 50% on top of that means that, in two power activations, you suddenly have a total buff of 120% or 140%, which is more then enough to make Hasten and, I would imagine, the new Speed Boost permanent as well (assuming a 96% Recharge Reduction in both powers, for a total of 216% or 236%). And that's assuming you don't have Siphon Speed set up for Recharge as well (I don't, and I can still stack it).
And that's before we get into the real fun math (which the game isn't balanced around - specifically, IO Recharge bonuses).
Bit overpowered? I'd certainly say so. Two Kinetics on a team playing well together and buffing each other can be downright disgusting, and I know this from personal experience.
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Well, the idea being that you'd make one buff pbaoe, and remove the single target buff.
And talen, I tried addressing you in good faith once; if you're not actually interested in a conversation, take your dumb trolling somewhere else.
@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)
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To yuri's point, I think that would make more sense if siphon speed wasn't already a very similar buff. Although I suppose if you were to make it pbaoe in some way, you could either just have it not affect the caster or apply the lesser siphon speed buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Similar, but not equivlant. Each time you apply Siphon Speed, you only get a 20% recharge boost. It's beyond trivial to stack it twice, especially if you happen to pick up Hasten (+70%). Adding another 30% or 50% on top of that means that, in two power activations, you suddenly have a total buff of 120% or 140%, which is more then enough to make Hasten and, I would imagine, the new Speed Boost permanent as well (assuming a 96% Recharge Reduction in both powers, for a total of 216% or 236%). And that's assuming you don't have Siphon Speed set up for Recharge as well (I don't, and I can still stack it).
And that's before we get into the real fun math (which the game isn't balanced around - specifically, IO Recharge bonuses).
Bit overpowered? I'd certainly say so. Two Kinetics on a team playing well together and buffing each other can be downright disgusting, and I know this from personal experience.
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Well, the idea being that you'd make one buff pbaoe, and remove the single target buff.
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Which? If you mean removing Siphon Speed... what would you replace it with? If you remove Speed Boost... what would you replace it with?
Devs have also stated that they really would prefer not to remove any powers at this juncture, as well. I mean, the fiasco with Patron and Ancillary Power Pools pretty well showed what happened when they tried to remove powers that were considered lackluster, and replace them with something more useful instead. There was an uproar.
Then there's also the issue of thematics - what would be the viability of either Siphon Speed or Speed Boost be if they didn't have the number one thing that made them worth casting to a fair number of people? A lot of people actually do request Speed Boost just for the Endurance Recovery buff, but it doesn't quite seem 'speed-y' if we take out the Recharge buff as well. That's the same problem we face with Siphon Speed, with the additional cavaet that the Recharge buff is often-times the only useful thing you get out of it. Especially with Inertial Reduction in place in the same set, that provides a handy Travel Power that's trivial to perma (and, infact, is perma out of the box).
Removing the recharge from Siphon Speed significantly reduces the benefit that power has (to the point it could probably be removed at that point and nobody would sweat it - but then again, what would you replace it with that made sense at that level?), and removing the benefit from Speed Boost sort of breaks the thematic convention of it and would likely require a rename while at the same time making it's use questionable considering that Transference is already in the set and generally a better Endurance management tool.
It's all stuff you have to take into consideration. It seems almost like you're looking at the set in a vacuum, or just unaware of the interplay between powers in a set. Or some third option I won't speculate on at this time, because there's honestly a grab-bag of stuff it could be that may be more or less accurate, depending.
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Speed boost is the game's most powerful and noticeable buff,
[/ QUOTE ] It's not even the most powerful buff in Kinetics.
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Speed boost is the game's most powerful and noticeable buff,
[/ QUOTE ] It's not even the most powerful buff in Kinetics.
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True dat.
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snip
It's all stuff you have to take into consideration. It seems almost like you're looking at the set in a vacuum, or just unaware of the interplay between powers in a set. Or some third option I won't speculate on at this time, because there's honestly a grab-bag of stuff it could be that may be more or less accurate, depending.
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I'm not sure if I've been unclear somehow, or what. What I was trying to say is that you'd leave siphon speed as it is, but give it an aoe "splash" recovery and recharge boost equivalent to SB. To keep it balanced around /kin's self buffs, you could keep the self component of the buff the same as siphon speed's is currently. Then take speed boost, and just make it a pbaoe +runspeed power, similar to inertial reduction. You haven't jostled the set around, and haven't upset balance in any way I can see.
@Dysc, on virtue:
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But why does Kinetics require 2 group travel power replacements? That seems not only redundant, but a little silly.
Yes you have, you change siphon speed to a +rech +recov pbaoe and you force them to lower the effectiveness. The easier a buff is to use, the less benefit you get from it.
We disagreed with your idea and have explained why.
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And talen, I tried addressing you in good faith once; if you're not actually interested in a conversation, take your dumb trolling somewhere else.
[/ QUOTE ]No, you didn't. You said, in essence, 'I am not addressing X, but did I mention X X X X X X X X X X?'
I am pointing out that you simply saying that something is a design failure doesn't actually make it a design failure, especially since you don't seem to understand what, exactly a design failure is. This is one of the vices of terminology, when people who don't understand it use it, it puts a veneer of intellectualism on the same old tired nonsense.
To dismantle your posts point by point and indicate every place you are wrong would take a great deal of time and effort, time and effort you would disregard because you have stepped into this discussion with the prior assumption that you are right and that people who know better than you are 'dumb trolls.' So I make do by pointing out large and obvious ways in which you are wrong and find to my surprise and delight that you can't even answer those, instead choosing to throw out accusations.
You have proven everything I thought of you when I read your opening post.
You'd have to ask the devs why they gave it two, I suppose.
@Dysc, on virtue:
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You'd have to ask the devs why they gave it two, I suppose.
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You're the one suggesting they do it, so therefore you seem the more logical one to ask in this matter. What's your reasoning?
If you don't enjoying buffing players then why are you picking buffing powers?
In light of the rash of trollish threads regarding speed boost in the last week or so, I wanted to suggest some changes. My goal is to make a powerful, fun buff less irritating for /kin players to apply, and more dynamic in general.
First, why does SB need to be changed?
1) Speed boost only has a two minute duration. Assuming it takes 20 or so seconds to rebuff an 8 person team (standard recharge time plus a couple seconds for targeting, range, etc.), a "good" /kin that maintains their team buffs will spend 15-20 percent of their time buffing speed boost. This is tedious and almost universally regarded as Not Fun.
2) Let's face it, the buff interface in this game isn't the best. You have only a string of small symbols stretching out from a player's name to go on, with no long-term timer or indication of when buffs will fall off. /kin players are forced to either scrutinize this interface, or use a third party app to time their buffs. This problem is exacerbated if you're like me, and choose to play with your UI substantially scaled down.
3) To summarize #3, "sb plz." Speed boost is the game's most powerful and noticeable buff, and letting it fall off for an extended period of time leads to more "team aggro" than anything else in the game. This makes the previous two points glaringly obvious, and irritating.
Okay, so how should SB be changed?
As you might imagine I have several ideas.
1) Make siphon speed work just like siphon power does. A pbaoe +recharge/+rec buff with a single ranged hit check. This follows what's already a unique and interesting kinetics mechanic and makes things easier and more fun for the /kin. Speed boost could either be replaced with something else, or made into a pbaoe +runspeed buff a la inertial reduction.
2) Just make speed boost a pbaoe buff with an appropriate cooldown. Accelerate metabolism is another popular, important buff that doesn't cause half the trouble refreshing SB does, because it's quick and easy to refresh in between spawns or using a "gather" macro.
3) Increase speed boost's duration. Speed boost's duration is short because it's a powerful buff, but I don't see any real reason it couldn't be longer. It's trivially easy to keep SB "perma" on a team anyway; the only issue is how much time the /kin has to spend doing it, and I don't see why we couldn't shorten that time.
If other people have fun or interesting suggestions for making speed boost more Fun, I'll be happy to add them to the OP.
@Dysc, on virtue:
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