So how do you feel about "Grammar Elitist"

Heraclea · 05-18-2009 07:30 AM

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Further, having a common language was one of the things that allowed people living in Europe at the time to communicate with each other, despite having a varity of languages to deal with. It's what we do now, with English - and most people consider having a common language that people can speak to be a good thing.

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At least until around the time of Charlemagne and Alcuin, most people in western Europe who wrote in Latin didn't draw a distinction between what they were writing and their local language. They called it "grammatica" - i.e. "grammar". It was a baroque spelling of the language they learned at home, and when they read it they pronounced it with contemporary values. As such, it is pretty much the exact mirror of English spelling, which preserves a fifteenth century phonology that nobody speaks any more, which is why English is so notoriously irregular and hard to spell.

It was the spread of Irish monasticism and a German empire - from people who did not speak Romance languages at home - that made it dawn on people that "Latin" had now become a different language from the vernacular languages in use in Romance speaking Europe. During the Carolingian renaissance, the church began to insist that priests pronounce Latin as it was written rather than adapting it to local usage. The priests then had to begin to write down local languages on their own terms in order to preach to ordinary people.

Even so, the difference between, say, Spanish and Latin is less than the difference between written Modern English and Old English. There has never been a major shift in the vocabulary, like English endured. The active verb forms mostly map into Latin verb forms, and as a result a Spanish verb is still fairly complicated.

<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
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GlaziusF · 05-18-2009 10:50 AM

Well, look.

Your average sentence has way more data in it (in terms of probabilistic arrangement) than the human brain should be able to parse with any kind of speed.

It can manage it largely because the set of rules called "spelling and grammar" works as a compression algorithm, cluing you into the nature of words and the arrangement of ideas.

If the spelling and grammar are bad enough to slow me down, that's going to reflect poorly in my rating of the arc.

If the spelling and grammar are bad enough to slow me down it's also going to take way too much time to correct it point by point. I'll suggest sticking some of the briefing into Word or similar.

I do point out individual errors but don't mark down for them unless they're particularly egregious, eg there are 50 patrols on each map all with the same typo.

Shocktricity · 05-18-2009 11:42 AM

*Where no were.. Its important nto only to the game but to our language that we correct stupid mistakes such as the secon word in your post.

peterpeter · 05-18-2009 11:54 AM

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*Where no were.. Its important nto only to the game but to our language that we correct stupid mistakes such as the secon word in your post.

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No, it's important to Heraclea that his/her idea is clearly communicated. It looks to me like Heraclea has already edited the post to correct the error you pointed out... without fussing or whining about the fact that someone pointed out an error.

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Kevin_Schultz · 05-18-2009 02:01 PM

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It was a baroque spelling of the language they learned at home, and when they read it they pronounced it with contemporary values. As such, it is pretty much the exact mirror of English spelling, which preserves a fifteenth century phonology that nobody speaks any more, which is why English is so notoriously irregular and hard to spell.

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Heh - I've heard that there actually IS a group of folks that still use what ammounts to early 1600's English prononciation - in America.

It's basically a variation of country folk in the Appalachians having odd accents - there was a group of colonists that went to New England, went out to an island, and (linguistically) ended up cutting themselves off for 350 years. As a consequence, their decendendents speak a closer derivative of "the Queen's English" more than the British do, if we define "the queen" as Queen Elizabeth I.

imported_CrazyCorsaire · 05-18-2009 06:46 PM

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*Where no were.. Its important nto only to the game but to our language that we correct stupid mistakes such as the secon word in your post.

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Is that baiting or your normal spelling? Just curious.

To the topical topic:
Typos, oops, thanks.
Spelling, sure, fire away.
Punctuation outside of dialog, go for it.
Punctuation in dialog, tread lightly.
Confusing, by all means.
Specific rewrite instructions, stop.

I've seen some really bad suggestions to "perfect grammar" or clarity that would basically suck the life and character right out of the writing. Voice comes from how you write.

Yogi_Bare · 05-18-2009 07:18 PM

Language is too transient and filled with complexity to be taken hard-nosed serious at a game site.

I've been surrounded by english as spoken by foreigners from differing countries and at different levels; english with dialects that vary from region to region; english filled with slang and usage that varies from one social subculture to the next.

I've been exposed to the progressively expanding vocabulary of a few children and the words they've contributed to society at large; as well as those gems given to us by american advertising.

The inclusion of foreign words into the english language that we take for granted as being our own as well as the smatterings of abbreviations, acronyms and oddities like ontemonepias and written representations of vocalizations.

I was taught to appreciate poetic licenses and to read between the lines; look for additional meanings to things that appeared simple or cut-and-dry.

To listen for tone and pitch; watch for body language... pay attention to choice of letter size, their position and slope on a line.

In short, I was made to be tolerant to the ebbs and flow in communication and try to understand the point of what is being communicated to and around me to the best of my competence and to ask for clarification if that communication eluded me.

It is a near impossibility for me to be anal enough about a language that mutates (has mutated) so much and so quickly that I have to berate 'flaws' in its use from a position of rigidity.

I won't rate someone a star less; no matter how bad the spelling or grammar may be; chances are that I got what they were trying to say.

Besides, I do more button-mashing than reading here anyway.

Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars

Tonality · 05-19-2009 04:17 AM

Whee. I was not expecting lengthy responses. I'll do my best to keep it short.

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I've been waiting for you....LOL

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I'm not going to give a story arc a 1-star rating if they some minor syntax error. I run across mistakes in published books at times.

Bt I am gonig 2 giv arc 1 str if u uz txt-spk & r not Fr34ksh0w.

There is a significant difference between typos and poor grammar. I have found that difference is effort.

I'll repeat my last line more emphatically:

You should take pride in your work.

If you want further examples, take a look at the suggestions forum, and start reading. I have a feeling you will notice a link between very poor writing and very poor ideas. Odd.

===============

In Re: Telstar

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Shouldn't that be "couldn't care less" or, at least, "could not care less"?

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It is my understanding that I can avoid using "that you" as it is implied. Therefore, the sentence could read:

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I am frustrated that you know nothing of the plight of those that went before you, and that you could care less about others .

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I could have written that better. "could care less" would have been clearer as "do not care", though I would probably soften the tone. That entire portion of my post was a bit over the top.

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Re: Kevin

You have a good grasp on history, particularly the Medieval. I stand corrected. I made some very broad statements (understatement). I was even thinking of the wrong era. I was actually thinking of the 17th century and writing about the 12th century.

What I had wanted to cite was the 17th century in what would be modern-day Germany. Based on that information, I think you can figure out what I was planning to reference, but given the somewhat touchy subject matter, I chose to avoid any actual example. In the process I still derailed the discussion away from the point I was trying to make

That point is that poor writing detracts from missions. In the process for striving for more good grammar (!), there is a certain tact involved in corrections. Perhaps emphasizing can and may as in Can I go to the bathroom vs. May I go to the bathroom is a little over the top. But I dont wat 2 ply a mish taht loks lik tihs

Smoke_Ring · 05-19-2009 04:32 AM

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Whee. I was not expecting lengthy responses. I'll do my best to keep it short.

[ QUOTE ]
I've been waiting for you....LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to give a story arc a 1-star rating if they some minor syntax error. I run across mistakes in published books at times.
I'll repeat my last line more emphatically:

You should take pride in your work.

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You should take pride and proof-read your post, you missed a word......

Smoke_Ring · 05-19-2009 04:34 AM

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Language is too transient and filled with complexity to be taken hard-nosed serious at a game site.

I've been surrounded by english as spoken by foreigners from differing countries and at different levels; english with dialects that vary from region to region; english filled with slang and usage that varies from one social subculture to the next.

I've been exposed to the progressively expanding vocabulary of a few children and the words they've contributed to society at large; as well as those gems given to us by american advertising.

The inclusion of foreign words into the english language that we take for granted as being our own as well as the smatterings of abbreviations, acronyms and oddities like ontemonepias and written representations of vocalizations.

I was taught to appreciate poetic licenses and to read between the lines; look for additional meanings to things that appeared simple or cut-and-dry.

To listen for tone and pitch; watch for body language... pay attention to choice of letter size, their position and slope on a line.

In short, I was made to be tolerant to the ebbs and flow in communication and try to understand the point of what is being communicated to and around me to the best of my competence and to ask for clarification if that communication eluded me.

It is a near impossibility for me to be anal enough about a language that mutates (has mutated) so much and so quickly that I have to berate 'flaws' in its use from a position of rigidity.

I won't rate someone a star less; no matter how bad the spelling or grammar may be; chances are that I got what they were trying to say.

Besides, I do more button-mashing than reading here anyway.

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Very good post, and well put.

Nihilii · 05-19-2009 05:04 AM

If your text is so badly written it requires effort to understand, you will get a lower rating from me, it's just not fun.

Regardless, a few grammatical mistakes might be the kind of thing that make me pick 4 stars instead of 5 if I can't choose between 4 or 5. It gives an unpolished feel to the arc.

Sailboat · 05-19-2009 07:42 AM

Well, the same question could be asked about an arc that is broken because the boss won't spawn, or that has a glowie behind a wall, or any other error that makes it troublesome to participate in. Do you rate someone lower for that sort of error?

Computer code is a language that shapes the mission experience, just like English language shapes the mission experience. Badly-written computer code can still permit the game to function, even if it bloats the memory and runs slowly; just like a badly-designed mission can be completed even if it's tiresome; just like badly-written English can still be understood with effort on the part of the reader. Do you reward bad coding? Bad mission design? Bad writing?

And if you don't mind the bad writing, ask yourself why you're willing to settle for poor quality in one aspect of the mission.

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

Yogi_Bare · 05-19-2009 09:17 AM

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Well, the same question could be asked about an arc that is broken because the boss won't spawn, or that has a glowie behind a wall, or any other error that makes it troublesome to participate in. Do you rate someone lower for that sort of error?

Computer code is a language that shapes the mission experience, just like English language shapes the mission experience. Badly-written computer code can still permit the game to function, even if it bloats the memory and runs slowly; just like a badly-designed mission can be completed even if it's tiresome; just like badly-written English can still be understood with effort on the part of the reader. Do you reward bad coding? Bad mission design? Bad writing?

And if you don't mind the bad writing, ask yourself why you're willing to settle for poor quality in one aspect of the mission.

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I can't rate a player for a dev/programming mistake. That represents a situation beyond their ability to control without dev team assistance.

I'd sent a note, ask them to notify me when a fix has been made and rate it at a later date.

Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars

GlaziusF · 05-19-2009 09:20 AM

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Well, the same question could be asked about an arc that is broken because the boss won't spawn, or that has a glowie behind a wall, or any other error that makes it troublesome to participate in. Do you rate someone lower for that sort of error?

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No, actually. Glowie placement and map design are both to some extent random, and out of the creator's hands. I will definitely notify if there's a map design that, combined with the creator's choices, creates an annoying scenario, but I won't mark down for it if it looks to be a special case.

I will mark down for, say, a "defeat all DE in the tech lab" mission because given swarms and given tech labs you could get a little thing off in some high-up corner and have no freakin' clue where it is.

Text, contrarily, is all deliberately entered by the creator.

GlaziusF · 05-19-2009 09:59 AM

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Language is too transient and filled with complexity to be taken hard-nosed serious at a game site.

...

In short, I was made to be tolerant to the ebbs and flow in communication and try to understand the point of what is being communicated to and around me to the best of my competence and to ask for clarification if that communication eluded me.

It is a near impossibility for me to be anal enough about a language that mutates (has mutated) so much and so quickly that I have to berate 'flaws' in its use from a position of rigidity.

I won't rate someone a star less; no matter how bad the spelling or grammar may be; chances are that I got what they were trying to say.

Besides, I do more button-mashing than reading here anyway.

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If something is too hard to read, it'll hurt my rating. That applies both to the monstrosities of texting alchemy and the grammatically-correct 10-line sentences you might expect to be clarifying some obscure point in the Harvard Law Review.

(Not that I've encountered the latter in the MA, but you'd be surprised how many people think it's entertaining to read fifty lines on the responsibility of royalty that contain less than five actual sentences and one concrete noun.)

Reading takes time. If something's hard to understand or written in obfuscatory language then it takes more time than it should. And I don't play a mission with the assumption that the author will be there for me to ask "what did you mean by that?" It stands or falls on its own.

In fact, even if the author is there to explain what everything is supposed to mean I'll still mark things down for being unclear. And I expect to be treated the same way, even if I'm there to explain things.

Acyl · 05-19-2009 10:14 AM

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You should take pride in your work.

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You should take pride and proof-read your post, you missed a word......

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I know you were making a joke, but...

A post on a message board is quite different from a published piece of work.

I don't care when people make mistakes in chat or quick messages. That kind of fast communication doesn't need to be perfect.

A finished product like a story arc is different. That's basically a piece of published fiction. As such, a certain amount of polish and care is expected.

@Acyl

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RiverOcean · 05-19-2009 10:17 AM

It depends, if its healthy and constructive correction I love it. If the person appears to be rude or spiteful I do take offense. However, that's because of the tone of the message and not the actual grammar mistake.

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Smoke_Ring · 05-19-2009 05:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should take pride in your work.

[/ QUOTE ]
You should take pride and proof-read your post, you missed a word......

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you were making a joke, but...

A post on a message board is quite different from a published piece of work.

I don't care when people make mistakes in chat or quick messages. That kind of fast communication doesn't need to be perfect.

A finished product like a story arc is different. That's basically a piece of published fiction. As such, a certain amount of polish and care is expected.

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If you would have read the holier then thou post he directed at me earlier in the thread, you would see why I had to do that to him.
He was lobbing some mighty big stones from his glass house

Celestial_Fury · 05-20-2009 02:52 AM

Personnally i am not a native english speaker/writer and i take no offense when people comment on my writing. They just do not know and i just do not care that much about it. I am not even trying anymore to improve my english. It is what it is and i am what i am. I know i can write great stories in french and that's all that matters to me.

I actually translate my arcs in english just to make them accessible to the biggest playerbase but i never expected to deliver grammar/typo-proof content.

I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

Madcat_88_NA · 05-20-2009 01:16 PM

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And how many times will you go back and fix minor details like that on a published arc? once, twice, 3 times?

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If that's the only reason they're rating it down I'd be rather miffed, because I'm pretty exacting with my spell and grammar checking.

But in terms of making corrections; every single time that one that I agree with gets pointed out to me. I hate it when I spot an error that I've previously glossed over.

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Emgro · 05-20-2009 04:20 PM

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Personnally i am not a native english speaker/writer and i take no offense when people comment on my writing. They just do not know and i just do not care that much about it. I am not even trying anymore to improve my english. It is what it is and i am what i am. I know i can write great stories in french and that's all that matters to me.

I actually translate my arcs in english just to make them accessible to the biggest playerbase but i never expected to deliver grammar/typo-proof content.

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If you want, just PM the entire text of your arc to me and I'll edit it for you.