Really compared to most ATs Banes are OP and don't really need a buff. When Banes had a low recharge time on placate all the Stalkers cried and moaned so I don't think that is coming back.
There are a couple of QoL issues they could fix someone had it in a post a couple months ago, but they don't neccessarily need any buffs at all.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Banes don't need a buff.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I agree with the placate recharge thing(but it would be cool, I didn't get to try it in beta 
), but I don't see a lot of Banes, mostly Crabs and Widows. Mine is IOed to the gills, so maybe this diluted how they perform.
But I'm under the impression that is you get a SOed NW, Crab, or Fort and test it against an SOed Bane, the three mentioned will generally come out on top, both in damage and overall survivability. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
Banes don't need a buff.
[/ QUOTE ]They do compared to widows. Widows can get soft cap defense really easy and out damage banes most of the time when survailence isnt up. So I think its fair they at least get some defense debuff resistance.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Banes don't need a buff.
[/ QUOTE ]They do compared to widows. Widows can get soft cap defense really easy and out damage banes most of the time when survailence isnt up. So I think its fair they at least get some defense debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is where the problem lies, Banes shouldn't be compared to Widows.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
If Banes can't be compared to Widows then what should they be compared with? Crabs? Mngwa said it best. At SO level the other VEAT paths exceed what a similarly enhanced Bane can do. I've found this to be dead on from playing Bane, Crab, Huntsman, Fort, and NW. IOing a Bane will make it very competitive, but IOing out the other 3 still makes them stronger. IOing other power combos in other AT's can yield a strong if not stronger character as well. Banes are hardly OP vs anything.
Banes are very squishy in melee, and that is where they are at their best. You have to dip into pool powers and IO sets to close up the defensive weakness. That's hardly OP. That's poor game design. The mace attacks are fun to use, but the power selection order is in need of an overhaul. Bash at level 1, and then then next decent attack at... 12? Seriously? I know it's not a huge deal because you respec into it at 24, but the power order shows little to no thought. You also find yourself filling up the powers between 1-12 with fillers. I took mace beam over combat training defensive. Mace beam is a mule for Thunderstrike, and it in no way hurts my ability to soft cap my range defense. It's a lack luster attack, and I would have loved to choose say... Pulverize much early. If I could then maybe I could free up some later choices and take other powers instead of being railroaded into front loaded power pool picks.
I really do enjoy playing my Bane. Once you overcome it's defensive issues it's a real blast to play, and it can do a lot. It's getting to that point that's a royal pain in the rear, and it could be smoothed out a bit from a design perspective.
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the placate recharge thing(but it would be cool, I didn't get to try it in beta ), but I don't see a lot of Banes, mostly Crabs and Widows. Mine is IOed to the gills, so maybe this diluted how they perform.
But I'm under the impression that is you get a SOed NW, Crab, or Fort and test it against an SOed Bane, the three mentioned will generally come out on top, both in damage and overall survivability. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really depends on what testing, depending on your build Banes can actually pull ahead of Widows and Crabs. Haven't tested against a Fort yet.
Tests were conducted as follow, Ruthless mish set for two people. Timed to see how long one would take to finish. One stood around at door while other did everything but the objective, then was reset for other person.
What gives Banes the advantage against Widows is the fact that Banes can get up to 3 pets and most Widows don't even take a patron pet. After testing is was proven that even with just call reinforcements (which is a soldier power) base slotting with SOs 3 recharge, 2 damage, 1 accuracy, it gives the Bane the extra DPS and mitigation needed to just plow through a mish. Widow had perma Mind Link and a lot of bonuses too much for me to remember. However, in the end, Bane completed the mish a whole minute and some seconds earlier with just the Call Reinforcements (mish was completed in under 4 minutes so they were up the whole time).
After testing with the Crab, he did even worst than the Widow did which surprised all of us. He had perma pets and he used all six. However, he completed it in a minute and a half after my Bane. I am guessing that the high melee damage plus the pets damage helped put the Bane over the top. As per what went on in the mish the Crab took about 10 secs longer per mob.
So let me know what tests you do and what the result in. I will give you that the other VEATs come out on top in survivability. In terms of damage Bane pulls ahead.
So high melee damage, great defense, pets, plenty of mitigation tools... trying to figure out why they need a buff...trying...trying...trying...just can't find it.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
If Banes can't be compared to Widows then what should they be compared with? Crabs? Mngwa said it best. At SO level the other VEAT paths exceed what a similarly enhanced Bane can do.
[/ QUOTE ]
If that is the case then you need to work on your Bane build, because on an SO level Widows have a total unsuppressed defense of 33.6 and Banes have an unsuppressed defense of 31.6 plus passive mez protection, 12% resist to all, and a 20% hp buff (one of the QoL issues was to let us enhance the hp don't see that as a buff though).
Did not include Mind Link as it is not perma with SO's nor did I include CT
for either only increases one aspect of defense so either would still have two to worry about.
Crabs on an SO scale are just as bad if not worst because there pets are not perma (not saying they are bad to play even with SOs they are still AoE beasts). However they lose a massive amount of DPS as they rely a lot on the pets for the extra damage.
When you look at them they are set up equally
Widows = Very High Melee Damage and High Defense
Crabs = Pets, High Ranged Damage, Debuffs, and High Resists.
Banes = High Melee, High Defense, Minor Resists, Pets, Debuffs, and One good range attack.
I would say they are balenced, it is just when you compare straight up damage and defense to a Widow Yeah a Widow is on top, but you can't do that because Widows don't get pets. Honestly you really can't compare any of the VEATs with each other just beacuse there are all SoA's does not mean they can be compared. Yeah they are in the same AT but it is not like you are choosing a different element of that AT. It is easy to compare a Fire Blaster to an Energy Blaster they are the same set with minor differences Banes and Widows are like trying to compare Scrappers and Stalkers some similarities but plenty of differences.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
Banes don't need a buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, they really do. Being squishier than all the other VEATs while not dealing more damage and not having unique features like a Fortunata's control makes a branch weak. Their attacks are just too slow. They're unwieldy. Surveillance dropping your Mace is bad. It also needs to last much longer. You shouldn't be whipping your targeting comp out every twenty seconds to maintain that -res.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Banes don't need a buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, they really do. Being squishier than all the other VEATs while not dealing more damage and not having unique features like a Fortunata's control makes a branch weak. Their attacks are just too slow. They're unwieldy. Surveillance dropping your Mace is bad. It also needs to last much longer. You shouldn't be whipping your targeting comp out every twenty seconds to maintain that -res.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that a good buff for Bane is to reduce the # of weapon redraw. That will speed up Bane's action a lot. Other than that, I think Bane is decent.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Banes don't need a buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, they really do. Being squishier than all the other VEATs while not dealing more damage and not having unique features like a Fortunata's control makes a branch weak. Their attacks are just too slow. They're unwieldy. Surveillance dropping your Mace is bad. It also needs to last much longer. You shouldn't be whipping your targeting comp out every twenty seconds to maintain that -res.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that a good buff for Bane is to reduce the # of weapon redraw. That will speed up Bane's action a lot. Other than that, I think Bane is decent.
[/ QUOTE ]
That I can agree with, more of a QoL issue than it is a buff, I just don't see how targeting your enemy makes you put your Mace away. I also think that Bane Armor should take Healing enhancements to increase HP it is like one of the only powers that increases HP and does not take healing enhancements it really can't be WAI.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
Widows = Very High Melee Damage and High Defense
Crabs = Pets, High Ranged Damage, Debuffs, and High Resists.
Banes = High Melee, High Defense, Minor Resists, Pets, Debuffs, and One good range attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is inaccurate, though. Widows and Forts can soft cap pretty easily with Mind Link. In your comparison you didn't include Mind Link, when it's up most of the time if you include DEF/RECH IOs in it and/or use Hasten. With some minimal work it can be perma for Widows.
And Banes are not "high defense," they're moderate. They have just as much as Crabs, but with cloak, which only adds a little. Suppressed they only have about 25% DEF (possibly less, I forget -- my Bane build also runs CJ which is +2.5%, so the actual number may be closer to 22%).
The high damage part is a maybe, as Widows can attack much faster and for very good damage. The debuffs are pretty minimal, and you have to consider that Widow attacks all do -speed/-recharge, and Forts get mezzes.
The pets I'll give you, but Crabs have more pets.
Overall, they do less damage with less DEF than Widows, are less durable than any of them, and have less mez protection (Banes have mag 6, Widows/Forts have 10.4, Crabs have 14.4). Their damage is still pretty good and I'd definitely say they aren't at the bottom for that, and they have some decent utility powers, but they still lack in some key areas.
If I was to tweak Banes any, I'd give them +mez protect (up to 10.4) and +DEF. They have more versatility and utility than your average Widow with things like Surveillance, pets, and Venom Grenade. All they need is the ability to stand up for as long.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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[ QUOTE ]
If that is the case then you need to work on your Bane build, because on an SO level Widows have a total unsuppressed defense of 33.6 and Banes have an unsuppressed defense of 31.6 plus passive mez protection, 12% resist to all, and a 20% hp buff (one of the QoL issues was to let us enhance the hp don't see that as a buff though). Did not include Mind Link as it is not perma with SO's nor did I include CT for either only increases one aspect of defense so either would still have two to worry about.
Widows = Very High Melee Damage and High Defense
Crabs = Pets, High Ranged Damage, Debuffs, and High Resists.
Banes = High Melee, High Defense, Minor Resists, Pets, Debuffs, and One good range attack.
I would say they are balenced, it is just when you compare straight up damage and defense to a Widow Yeah a Widow is on top, but you can't do that because Widows don't get pets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, clearly I'm doing something wrong in my Bane build, I just tested mine. As a primarily melee character, I'm by far most interested in melee defense. My Bane gets 15.6 defense from TT:M and another 6% after suppression from CD. Leaving me at a pretty unimpressive ~22% defense.
Given that I operate in melee, CT is a bit questionable to ignore. The fact that my NW can with SOs get 34% melee defense after suppression is a huge, huge difference. Less range defense than a Bane, but if I have to pick which to be low for a melee character it's a really, really easy choice.
A Bane's mez protection is passive...and the lowest of any melee character out there. Especially if you skip the Wolf Spider Armor as you advise.
You make special point of Banes getting one good range attack (presumably Poisonous Ray) but Poison Dart has far better DpS and longer range, better DpE, and nearly the DpA. Both have a debuff. They're pretty comparable.
It seems a bit specious to omit Mind Link from the defense comparison because it isn't permanent, then include Pets in the damage comparison.
My experience has been that Banes and Night Widows play very similarly as stealthy melee killers. But my NW is noticeably tougher with SOs and does both better single target and AoE damage (especially compared to a Bane that skips the Wolf powers to avoid the redraw). Bane has stronger Maneuvers and Surveillance is nice, but as long as my Widow times it so that Mind Link is up at the boss, it's at least as useful. IOd out so it's permanent, it's overall better.
For two character types that occupy basically the same role, Night Widows just do far more things better than Banes than the reverse.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Widows = Very High Melee Damage and High Defense
Crabs = Pets, High Ranged Damage, Debuffs, and High Resists.
Banes = High Melee, High Defense, Minor Resists, Pets, Debuffs, and One good range attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is inaccurate, though. Widows and Forts can soft cap pretty easily with Mind Link. In your comparison you didn't include Mind Link, when it's up most of the time if you include DEF/RECH IOs in it and/or use Hasten. With some minimal work it can be perma for Widows.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lets try reading
Here is what I said
[ QUOTE ]
Did not include Mind Link as it is not perma with SO's nor did I include CT for either only increases one aspect of defense so either would still have two to worry about.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again with SOs Mind Link is not perma.
[ QUOTE ]
And Banes are not "high defense," they're moderate. They have just as much as Crabs, but with cloak, which only adds a little. Suppressed they only have about 25% DEF (possibly less, I forget -- my Bane build also runs CJ which is +2.5%, so the actual number may be closer to 22%).
[/ QUOTE ]
For both the Widow and the Bane I included L:M and CJ if you wanted to go with just what they have available
Bane CD (suppressed) 3.75 and TT:M 10% = 13.75%
Widows have MP (suppressed) 2.5%, TT:M 5%, and Foresight 7.5% 15%
With one more power giving off defense, I would hope that theirs is high, but it isn't even that much higher. To offset that though they do get resists and a HP boost from their Armor. So I would say they are about even.
[ QUOTE ]
The high damage part is a maybe, as Widows can attack much faster and for very good damage. The debuffs are pretty minimal, and you have to consider that Widow attacks all do -speed/-recharge, and Forts get mezzes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry meant to add we did not do any tests with Forts sorry and that is why I have not included them.
[ QUOTE ]
The pets I'll give you, but Crabs have more pets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but we get 2/5 of there pets (the stronger of the five) plus dps wise Bane w/o pets > Crab w/o pets, so adding 3 weaker sources of damage adds more to their survivablity than it does their kill speed.
[ QUOTE ]
Overall, they do less damage with less DEF than Widows, are less durable than any of them, and have less mez protection (Banes have mag 6, Widows/Forts have 10.4, Crabs have 14.4). Their damage is still pretty good and I'd definitely say they aren't at the bottom for that, and they have some decent utility powers, but they still lack in some key areas.
[/ QUOTE ]
They are not less durable than all of them. When you put them all together yeah they seem like an unfair fit but lets analyze.
Banes and Widows
No they do not have the damage or defense. Widows don't have perma resists, a hp boost, or pets. With those in consideration resists and hp boost help Bane take more damage to offset the minor Def difference between the two. The pets even moreso help offset that and add more damage.
Banes and Crabs
Crabs have more pets and more resistance. Well guess what they need all that. My Bane with just SOs was one shotting LTs, I could careless about taking damage when the person giving it is down before it can touch me. Also we get placate meaning that you can't touch me.
[ QUOTE ]
If I was to tweak Banes any, I'd give them +mez protect (up to 10.4) and +DEF. They have more versatility and utility than your average Widow with things like Surveillance, pets, and Venom Grenade. All they need is the ability to stand up for as long.
[/ QUOTE ]
According to the 1 DEF = 2 RES Banes are good any more Defense or Resistance they would be OP. But there are some QoL issues that do need to be addressed.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Banes defenitely should get some defense debuff resistance
[ QUOTE ]
It seems a bit specious to omit Mind Link from the defense comparison because it isn't permanent, then include Pets in the damage comparison.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only because the Pets can be enhanced and their duration. As a Dom player I know first hand 90 secs is not that long. For the simple fact base wise with just SOs Reinforcements are up 73% of the time and Mind Link is up 30% of the time. Most times my Bane finishes a paper mish in less than 4 minutes.
[ QUOTE ]
as long as my Widow times it so that Mind Link is up at the boss, it's at least as useful
[/ QUOTE ]
Before I perma'd Mind Link this was my philosophy, and it is a dang good one if must say so myself.
Edit
[ QUOTE ]
A Bane's mez protection is passive...and the lowest of any melee character out there. Especially if you skip the Wolf Spider Armor as you advise.
[/ QUOTE ]
1. Lets not go with my advice and it is for IOing and I am going on SOs in my references
2. If you are going with my advice then you shouldn't be taking to many hits to get mezzed
3. Looking for other defense sets with passive mez protection to compare it to...looking...looking...now looking in all regular AT sets for passive mez protection...looking...looking...not found. Didn't mean to be an A$$ about it but how can you compare it when there is nothing to compare it to.
4. Thank you for reading the guide still need to update new build have like 60% melee, 58% range, and like 53% AoE and I think my pets are like 30% all.
[ QUOTE ]
Banes defenitely should get some defense debuff resistance
[/ QUOTE ]
/signed
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
I keep trying to figure out why you all keep calling Bane Spiders Melee toon, I haven't seen any melee sets with pets in the primary or secondary.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
Lets try reading
Here is what I said
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks -- I did read what you said. Please note that I said ML is still up most of the time on a basic build. When it is up, Widows have an extra +10% DEF and ToHit over Banes. Throw in Hasten and some IOs and it can be permaed. But it doesn't HAVE to be perma to be useful. It's still a big chunk of Widow survival even if you're using SOs. Please don't conveniently ignore powers because they don't fit your unusual criteria.
And if you want to only compare powers that are up all the time and ignore situational ones despite the benefits they may add, you'd have to ignore the fact that Banes have pets (like the previous poster noted). You'd also want to ignore Surveillance.
This is still really strange to me, though. I play a Widow and think Banes need a buff because I was underwhelmed when I did my Crab's dual build as one. You play a Bane and don't want them buffed?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
What I can't figure out is why (sans set bonuses) Banes have a lower Melee defense and a higher Ranged defense while Forts (sans set bonuses) have a higher Melee defense and lower Ranged defense. It's as if they want you to choose Crab over Bane and NW over Fort. It's counter-intuitive.
[ QUOTE ]
I keep trying to figure out why you all keep calling Bane Spiders Melee toon, I haven't seen any melee sets with pets in the primary or secondary.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I'm trying to figure out why the author of a guide entitled "A guide to the Melee Bane" would ask this question.
If you don't take the Wolf powers, the majority of your best, most damaging powers, are melee attacks.
[ QUOTE ]
For the simple fact base wise with just SOs Reinforcements are up 73% of the time and Mind Link is up 30% of the time. Most times my Bane finishes a paper mish in less than 4 minutes.
3. Looking for other defense sets with passive mez protection to compare it to...looking...looking...now looking in all regular AT sets for passive mez protection...looking...looking...not found. Didn't mean to be an A$$ about it but how can you compare it when there is nothing to compare it to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mind Link lasts 90 seconds, and assuming you took Mental Training, it recharges in 200 seconds. Which starts as soon as you hit the power, not after it finishes. How is less than 30 percent a simple fact?
What I'm comparing is not to other characters with passive mez protection, but to ANY form of mez protection. That it doesn't use any end is nice...but it's low mag isn't a good thing, and not something that can be ignored with hand-waving, especially before you get serious IO'ed out and get powers from outside the Bane primary and secondary. Fighting some Malta or Tsoo, anything with a melee mez with 22% melee defense and mag 4 mez protection---ouch. I have no idea why the devs set Bane mez protection so low.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lets try reading
Here is what I said
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks -- I did read what you said. Please note that I said ML is still up most of the time on a basic build. When it is up, Widows have an extra +10% DEF and ToHit over Banes. Throw in Hasten and some IOs and it can be permaed. But it doesn't HAVE to be perma to be useful. It's still a big chunk of Widow survival even if you're using SOs. Please don't conveniently ignore powers because they don't fit your unusual criteria.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again Reinforcements have longer duration and a better ratio of up time even with them excluded Banes lose kill speed but still maintain better suvivablity.
[ QUOTE ]
And if you want to only compare powers that are up all the time and ignore situational ones despite the benefits they may add, you'd have to ignore the fact that Banes have pets (like the previous poster noted). You'd also want to ignore Surveillance.
[/ QUOTE ]
I consider powers like Mind Link and Elude situational I don't find the pets situational but if we must exclude them lets exclude them, however, how does that make the the Crab look now?
[ QUOTE ]
You play a Bane and don't want them buffed?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is a difference between want and need. I could see if they were horrible and unplayable yeah I would want them buffed. But I turned 24 with my Soldier for the First time and specced into a Bane (Something I have never played with before or didn't have any guide on or advise on at the time). I took him into a mish and straight clobbered 2 EBs without trying at all, no insperations, just my SO build at the time. I thought it was luck but I did it again.
I still kinda consider myself a novice at this game, but for me to just go in and take on two EB with the PToD without any trouble, I just don't see the AT I did that with needing a buff.
There are so many other things that need to be looked at more than this one. To me as far as needing a buff this AT is far from it, but if they get one, I won't be mad.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I keep trying to figure out why you all keep calling Bane Spiders Melee toon, I haven't seen any melee sets with pets in the primary or secondary.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I'm trying to figure out why the author of a guide entitled "A guide to the Melee Bane" would ask this question.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice comeback lol, but if I make a melee Blaster does that make it a melee toon still?
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't take the Wolf powers, the majority of your best, most damaging powers, are melee attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
No arguement.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
How is less than 30 percent a simple fact?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's Da_Captain. There's a reason why he's #2 of 3 on my ignore list.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
With the new Rouge expansion coming out, with MMs getting Demon Summoning, and with Doms getting some love, could buffs for Banes be coming down the drain?
This is just speculation, of course.
*crosses fingers for lower Placate recharge*