[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, with better difficulty tools the players will very likely find the balance point for us in terms of difficulty vs play.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that there's no real incentive not to just make the critters as easy as you possibly can, given the powersets you choose - i.e. simply always pick "standard" for everything. As an author I might like to run on higher difficulty settings when I play by myself, but I know that there are players out there who will downrate my content if I make it too hard. The reverse does not seem to be true.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
I work for a company which is heavily involved in "Web 2.0" issues, and the evolving concensus is that you get much more accurate results by datamining then you do by polling. Polling inevitably leads to small numbers of people having a disproportionate affect on your results. It happens even when the people are answering as honestly as possible. People with strong opinions who go out of their way to express them in a poll are not average. One person put it that as a certain numbers of users are reached " the entire structure of engineering discussions has shifted heavily into the realm of statistics and controlled experimentation."
I will say that I personally find the MA exceptionally convenient and easy to navigate There are several substantial advantages, since you can:
1) Drop missions at any point, and for any reason.
2) Search for missions with allies.
3) Run the same missions multiple times until you develop a winning strategy.
4) Create customer groups that are especially easy or difficult for your current character to defeat.
But since these advantages have been listed before in this thread I'm not sure I'm adding much to the discussion by bringing them up again. We seem to kind of be cycling through the same basic points.
[ QUOTE ]
there's no real incentive not to just make the critters as easy as you possibly can
[/ QUOTE ]
There is a strong incentive for me, and on some level, I think it's the same incentive that drives the developers themselves when designing critters: The satisfaction of creating a well tuned encounter.
I've fought villain groups that come off as "blah", hum drum, and weak, and I've fought villain groups that pasted me with no chance for reprisal, scarcely the chance to pop an insp.
But then, I've also fought villain groups that, without killing me outright and unfairly, kept me on my toes, off balance, scrambling to neutralize threats and respond to emerging situations.
I suppose I don't speak for the player base at large when I say this, but I know which I'd rather play against, and I know which I'd be proud of having made.
Mission Arc: Metatronic Mayhem (Id 1750): A tale of robots gone wrong, rogue robots gone right, and madmen gone every which way but loose.
[ QUOTE ]
But then, I've also fought villain groups that, without killing me outright and unfairly, kept me on my toes, off balance, scrambling to neutralize threats and respond to emerging situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is certainly what I'm going for, but it's pretty tricky to achieve.
I had an interesting personal experience yesterday that highlights many of the issues in question. I created a second build on my VEAT widow , so he changed from being a scrapper to a hover blaster.
Wow. I had previously play-tested this mission with what I thought were a wide range of character classes, but this one build had almost the opposite experience in every way. The sections which had been easy before (large numbers of low-level opponents) were now challenging and required a lot of attention to play successfully. The sections which had been difficult (individual bosses) were now trivially easy because of the characters control powers. Once the boss was chain-held there was zero risk, although it did take awhile to whittle away at him with my mediocre attacks.
In general I'm more concerned about creating critters that are too tough than too easy. People who want a challenge tend to already have the difficulty level cranked up.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We see mass migration
[/ QUOTE ]
My point is not that any of what you describe doesn't occur, but rather that my experience suggests it doesn't occur in as large a quantities as you're implying. Even in the case of PvP missions which awarded even *higher* rewards than radio missions ever did, there was never a mass-exodus towards them, and the risk of forced PvP when running them was extremely low to zeo.
[/ QUOTE ]
Any time I see a line of people outside the entrance to some new content, and the zone(s) where it is accessable is alive with broadcasts of "LF <fotm_name> team" or "<fotm_name> team with room for 3" at all hours of the day and night, I consider that a potential "mass migration". The clarifying indicator of this is when patch affecting the activity's reward causes these gatherings to vaproize within a day's time. If thes groups were playing the content en masse because it was new and/or raucous fun, that dissipation wouldn't happen.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, with better difficulty tools the players will very likely find the balance point for us in terms of difficulty vs play.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that there's no real incentive not to just make the critters as easy as you possibly can, given the powersets you choose - i.e. simply always pick "standard" for everything. As an author I might like to run on higher difficulty settings when I play by myself, but I know that there are players out there who will downrate my content if I make it too hard. The reverse does not seem to be true.
[/ QUOTE ]
The same incentive there is to make custom critters at all: to attract people to your missions who are otherwise bored with the existing ones.
Here's an interesting data point which I don't claim is representative, but interesting nontheless. The hardest arc I've published is the scrapper challenge, of course. In second place is Secret Weapons which is significantly, but not overwhelmingly, more difficult than conventional PvE content. The easiest is Bug Hunt which is probably about par with conventional PvE content. Guess what the order is in terms of plays (or at least, rated plays)? SC first, SW second, and BH last. The hardest gets the most plays, and the easiest gets the least.
Also, I've had negative feedback go both ways, with some claiming a particular arc was too hard, and others claiming it was too easy. Those complaints run about 3 to 1, but they exist. I don't believe the playerbase is very uniform in whether they want to experience easier or harder content, irrrespective of rewards.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there's no real incentive not to just make the critters as easy as you possibly can
[/ QUOTE ]
There is a strong incentive for me, and on some level, I think it's the same incentive that drives the developers themselves when designing critters: The satisfaction of creating a well tuned encounter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure that's strong enough to counter the disincentive from people who gave you low ratings based on the critters being too hard?
Making the combat harder than the combat in regular PvE is going to subtly push people to run PvE instead of your arc. Since PvE and the "standard" setting are presumably being normalized against each other**, making everything "standard" basically says "as hard as regular PvE", and anything above "standard" basically says "punitively diminished returns relative to difficulty".
I'm speaking from experience here; I deliberately designed challenging encounters for the first version of "The Ghost in the Machine". In closed beta, people gave me feedback like "Wow, that was difficult and challenging, but not overpowered - great job!" Live, I got feedback like "I died four times on mission 3; 1 star".
** While this isn't explicitly happening now - particularly when you consider the full level range of custom critters vs. their PvE counterparts - it's the only reasonable approach I can see the devs taking, long term.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
By the way, here's my current strategy: Make the combat challenging, but also use some of the farm-map tricks for upping the reward rates at the same time (by presenting a higher-than-normal mix of lieutenants and bosses). Not coincidentally to my points in this thread, that generally involves setting said lieutenants and bosses to "standard".
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
[ QUOTE ]
Are you sure that's strong enough to counter the disincentive from people who gave you low ratings based on the critters being too hard?
[/ QUOTE ]
For me, from both the perspective of a player, and an author, yes. For a select cut of the MA crowd, also yes. For you? It actually sounds like yes, or at least a maybe. But I realize that it's very unlikely to represent the feelings of most players, or authors. The incentive is there, but I suppose it's an issue of people not valuing it.
Also: Regarding your "current strategy", it's still designed to be hard. It's just that "hard" is the only option for Leutenants and Bosses right now. You just can't make a "Fallen Buckshot" in the Custom Critter editor.
More generally, and more related to the topic, there is the option to "make a THIRD option", regarding standardizing custom critter rewards on different difficulty settings, and allowing granular power selection: Include both as options. 4 difficulty settings: Standard, Hard, Extreme, and Custom.
Reward escalation can apply to the 3 original difficulty settings, and for authors who want to take the risk and make the sacrifice in the name of their art form, the Custom difficulty would exist, but only give standard rewards. Of course, this statement does make the bold leap of faith that you can put a numerical XP multiplier value on the differences between powersets, or tune those powersets to match a given multiplier.
How hard should 10% more XP be?
Mission Arc: Metatronic Mayhem (Id 1750): A tale of robots gone wrong, rogue robots gone right, and madmen gone every which way but loose.
So, I've been trying to run people's arcs. Its a you rate mine, I'll rate yours kind of thing. Theres a list devoted to it here on the forums. I haven't run anything for a couple of days, so I logged in with my Energy/Ninjitsu Stalker and went at it. Walked into a mission with custom cirtters and died...repeatedly...ridiculously. I spent most of my time on my back since I don't have knockback resistance. If I could not outright kill them with assasin's strike, I was doomed. And forget the custom EBs. 2 shot - dead. I never had a chance. I thought she was a really good build, though she is definately not my favorite. I brought in my Katana/Regen stalker and didn't have much issue, but she is lower level which made most story based arcs at my level. The lower the level, the fewer powers open to them.
Tonight, I got a couple of ratings from some very nice people asking me to run and rate theirs. I tried...I really did. This time it was my Dark/Dark Scrapper. She tears the world apart normaly. I run her solo on unyielding for a challange. I absolutely love her. I came out of the first mission thinking that I really stink. I must stink. The first spawn, 4 orange Lutes (custom critters). Knocked me on my butt and proceeded to sucker punch me dead in about 4 hits. Huh? So, I go out and change my CL from 4 to 2. Came back...5 hits instead of 4. At this point, I had been playing a lot and was out of patrol xp...I was in debt. So, I tried a different one. I sent the first author a note about how good I thought the story was, but that I was unable to finish the mission due to the difficulty in the custom mobs. The next mission, the story was wonderful! I was really impressed at how well it was written and how much effort was put into the custom critters. I got a really good look at them from the dirt nap I took after 2 hits from a Lieutenant with a sword. I have damage resistance, I am well slotted, I have no issue with normal content. I died 4 times in the space of 10 minutes. I again had no ability to complete the mission. I am now figuring that I will need to just ignore all mission arcs with custom critters in it, something I really didn't want to have to do.
[ QUOTE ]
I am now figuring that I will need to just ignore all mission arcs with custom critters in it, something I really didn't want to have to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is probably the biggest tragedy to the buffs of custom mobs--they wound up so strong that players are getting turned away. I really hope that I15 successfully gives better tools for making unique mobs that aren't overpowered.
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How hard should 10% more XP be?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ideally, 10% more hard (for however we define "hard" - time it takes to win, etc.). The challenge is quantifying that and making it somewhat consistent across powersets.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
So, I've been trying to run people's arcs. Its a you rate mine, I'll rate yours kind of thing. Theres a list devoted to it here on the forums. I haven't run anything for a couple of days, so I logged in with my Energy/Ninjitsu Stalker and went at it. Walked into a mission with custom cirtters and died...repeatedly...ridiculously. I spent most of my time on my back since I don't have knockback resistance. If I could not outright kill them with assasin's strike, I was doomed. And forget the custom EBs. 2 shot - dead. I never had a chance. I thought she was a really good build, though she is definately not my favorite. I brought in my Katana/Regen stalker and didn't have much issue, but she is lower level which made most story based arcs at my level. The lower the level, the fewer powers open to them.
Tonight, I got a couple of ratings from some very nice people asking me to run and rate theirs. I tried...I really did. This time it was my Dark/Dark Scrapper. She tears the world apart normaly. I run her solo on unyielding for a challange. I absolutely love her. I came out of the first mission thinking that I really stink. I must stink. The first spawn, 4 orange Lutes (custom critters). Knocked me on my butt and proceeded to sucker punch me dead in about 4 hits. Huh? So, I go out and change my CL from 4 to 2. Came back...5 hits instead of 4. At this point, I had been playing a lot and was out of patrol xp...I was in debt. So, I tried a different one. I sent the first author a note about how good I thought the story was, but that I was unable to finish the mission due to the difficulty in the custom mobs. The next mission, the story was wonderful! I was really impressed at how well it was written and how much effort was put into the custom critters. I got a really good look at them from the dirt nap I took after 2 hits from a Lieutenant with a sword. I have damage resistance, I am well slotted, I have no issue with normal content. I died 4 times in the space of 10 minutes. I again had no ability to complete the mission. I am now figuring that I will need to just ignore all mission arcs with custom critters in it, something I really didn't want to have to do.
[/ QUOTE ] You are not alone, sir. BTW I LOL at the dirt nap comments and how good a look you got at them.
[ QUOTE ]
This is probably the biggest tragedy to the buffs of custom mobs--they wound up so strong that players are getting turned away. I really hope that I15 successfully gives better tools for making unique mobs that aren't overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that it would be great to have greater control over specific powers in I15. But I think the problem is more with the authors, not the MA. I suspect that even if the MA gave complete granularity on individual powers, many authors don't have enough knowledge of the game or the testing tools necessary to make intelligent decisions on what to leave out.
You can see this pattern in many of the decisions people are already making with the editor. If you are facing "4 orange Lutes" in the first spawn then the author has deliberately created a custom group with no minions. There's a good reason why you don't see that in standard missions--it's too hard to solo for many builds. If authors don't take that into account now, then new tools in the MA aren't going to change things much.
My conversations in-game also lead me to think this way. I have gotten into several strange discussions with people about the difficulty of their missions. One author said "Why did you play it solo? Everyone I know always play on a team with their supergroup!" Another person said "You got mezzed a lot? Well, why would anyone play a character without mezz protection?"
I have ended up making most of my missions pretty simple and marking them as "solo-friendly" in the description. I figure if somebody complains they are too easy that person either doesn't bother to read, or just wants to brag how uber they are. But so far I haven't received a negative comment.
The problem is not helped by how limited the playtest feature is in the MA. If it were my software, I would let people playtest the mission with several "standard" builds and powersets at any level they chose. But even then people would have to bother to use it, and I don't know how many would.
[ QUOTE ]
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I am now figuring that I will need to just ignore all mission arcs with custom critters in it, something I really didn't want to have to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is probably the biggest tragedy to the buffs of custom mobs--they wound up so strong that players are getting turned away. I really hope that I15 successfully gives better tools for making unique mobs that aren't overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, I15 will probably be too late. People are already forming their opinions on AE and some of them are not good.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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[ QUOTE ]
My point is not that any of what you describe doesn't occur, but rather that my experience suggests it doesn't occur in as large a quantities as you're implying. Even in the case of PvP missions which awarded even *higher* rewards than radio missions ever did, there was never a mass-exodus towards them, and the risk of forced PvP when running them was extremely low to zeo.
[/ QUOTE ]
There seems to be some sort of threshold that has to be overcome. The difference between radios and arcs could just be at a level that isn't noticeable or isn't considered significant.
[/ QUOTE ]
At the moment, this is probably true to a large degree. But I'm not sure that would be equally applicable to PvP missions before they were adjusted. The PvP countdown made the risk of being ganked while running PvP missions extremely low, and the reward level for those missions was significantly high (even higher than the RWZ ones).
More likely in this case an additional sticky factor is simple awareness: most players have no idea what the relative reward levels are for anything, and only learn through experience. If that's the case, they might never gain the experience of running a PvP mission to judge.
That suggests that the problem isn't MA arc difficulty per se, but rather the ability to detect it and select it deliberately for each individual player. Better search tools would help here.
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While I have no idea how this factors into the reward calculation you are speaking of, ARCs offer other rewards besides inf and drops. There are temp powers to be had and badges to gain.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, but MA missions have alternate advantages, in particular the fact that the ticket cap is somewhat easier to manage than inventory limits, reducing the likelihood of losing drops by virtue of being full (with some reasonable awareness and practice). I'm not sure if there is any way to determine how those qualitative differences affect player decisions without actually in effect asking them, by poll or by datamining.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)