Bringing "Epic" back to an Epic Archtype.
By
Arlow,
Posted on: 2009-04-04 02:34 in Suggestions and Ideas
Major flaw in your suggestion though, Kheldians dont suck
Why should a PB/WS become energy drainers. End issues?
I think as WS has all the end tools they need as you advance
in lv, and PBs to if not mistaken both are very end freindly.
heck both of them are very possible to do with our stamina
were the forms have more end recovery and its enhancable.
Yeah, and the hours that go into researching which "Type" of gameplay you're more interested in as opposed to other archtypes who generally stick to one course of game play? Or the time it takes to gather enough influence to properly enhance oneself with inventions? It shouldn't be as complex as it is, not compared to Villain Epic Archtypes.
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Yeah, and the hours that go into researching which "Type" of gameplay you're more interested in as opposed to other archtypes who generally stick to one course of game play?
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Not all arctypes are so simple from lv 1 on, take a stone armor brute
(or tank) how you play one at lv 10 is VERY different then how you
play lv 40. All arctypes can have research added, its all part of how
you chose to aproch it. Of course veats also have this same change
of how to play them as the heats so, I dont see any issues on this point.
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Or the time it takes to gather enough influence to properly enhance oneself with inventions?
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Neither needed nor relevent, the game is balanced vs SOs
and with SOs kelds rock. Also ALL toons need the time to do
this, if it was relivent, so it doesnt help your argument.
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It shouldn't be as complex as it is, not compared to Villain Epic Archtypes.
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Well I'm now working on my 3rd VEAT, I can tell you they are as
complex as the HEATs, infact more so (to me), the VEATs have
many powers to chose from (more so then the HEATS) they might
have more that need sloting (becuase of forms) but VEATs have
what ones to use as there issue. Both are complex and thats part
of their apeal. I'm very happy these classes have something keeping
the chalange up, as without it its not worth playing.
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Yeah, and the hours that go into researching which "Type" of gameplay you're more interested in as opposed to other archtypes who generally stick to one course of game play?
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Again, wrong assumption: complexity is bad thing and should be dumbed down into a simpler role. Just because Kheldians are generalists and are more of a challenge to plan out than a specialist AT doesn't mean that they need to be changed. It just means they need to be approached differently when played. If you don't like being a generalist, that's fine, no one forces you to play a Kheldian, but that doesn't mean there's a problem with Kheldians.
I also find it ironic that you're holding up the VEATs as the model here - as though it doesn't take tons of planning to work out what you want to be there either. It's a branching system rather than a shapeshifting one, but it's still far more complex than a standard villain AT. I don't see you arguing to dumb that one down.
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Or the time it takes to gather enough influence to properly enhance oneself with inventions? It shouldn't be as complex as it is, not compared to Villain Epic Archtypes.
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Unless you're gong for a full purple-out, it doesn't take any longer than any other character, and it certainly isn't necessary to get anywhere near that level of IO-ing out to make the Kheldians perform very impressively. Just some basic generic IOs or even SOs will do just fine to make a tri-form Warshade a PvE beast few can match and can make a PB a nigh-unkillable scrapping machine. And that's not even getting into what the different variants can do and the versatility they provide.
As for endurance issues, with improper slotting a PB can be quite an endurance hog even with Conserve Energy. If you were having serious endurance issues on a Warshade post-22, I can only conclude you were not playing it well.
Out of curiosity, just how long did you bother to play your Kheldians before concluding that they 'sucked'? If you really want to open a discussion on how to improve Kheldians, you're going to need to understand them a lot better than what you've posted so far suggests.
There are a number of changes that would very much help Khedlians, but endurance drain probably isn't one of them as the suggestion is based on a faulty premise. Endurance is almost trivial for a Warshade, and while PBs struggle a bit more I had more trouble with my Broadsword/SR Scrapper than my PB. Efficient slotting and use of powers like Conserve Energy and Stamina take care of things just fine.
Probably one of the single most potent changes that really would improve Kheldians might be a reduction in shapeshift animation times, for instance.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
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1. Biggest issue - Khelds don't suck. "Needlessly toil?" Oh, and if you want to potentially alienate (heh) an entire segment of the playerbase... the very ones who could, say, help you? Good job, you just did!
2. Second issue - Epic, as defined by the developers = tied to a story. The Khelds have an entire backstory with them, with very good arcs from 1-50. Know why we have VEATs instead of Nictus? Because those are related more closely, per dev statement, to the redside story.
3. Stygian Circle.
As for your later post?
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Yeah, and the hours that go into researching which "Type" of gameplay you're more interested in as opposed to other archtypes who generally stick to one course of game play? Or the time it takes to gather enough influence to properly enhance oneself with inventions? It shouldn't be as complex as it is, not compared to Villain Epic Archtypes.
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Didn't have to research at all on my first Peacebringer. Played her, took what looked interesting, got her to 50 without much fuss. Same on my Warshade. And the second Peacebringer, this one humanform, at 50. Currently working on a biform Warshade.
As for the VEATs - yeah. "Waste the first 23 levels, get forced into doing a respec *right now* at 24 to deal with the branching, where you start picking powers again from level 1 from four categories..." Have you actually played one?
SOs work well. And as you say, the other ATs "stick to one course of gameplay." By the time you get to 50, you should, in theory, have a clue about how to deal with aggro, how to deal with range, mezzing, an idea on how to tank perhaps...
See, what someone who DIDN'T want to potentially irritate an entire group of players would have done, instead of coming in here and going "Khelds suck and need fixing!" would be, oh, to go to those boards a little ways up marked "Kheldian" and ask for help, saying something like "I'm having trouble getting into Khelds, I'm playing this, and doing this, here's a build." Or possibly reading guides if you're stuck - something you can do for any AT and pretty much any powerset.
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3. Stygian Circle.
[/ QUOTE ] The single greatest power in the game, period. A kitten is saved every time Stygian Circle is used(unless you don't like kittens, then well...).
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Khelds don't suck.
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This.
I think people unlock their HEATS/VEATS and expect some godlike ez mode toon, instead what we get are complex archtypes that actually require some thought to build and play, I mean, how rude? . . . .
Complex, not easy to learn in 5 mins, multiple choices, extremely diverse, jack of all trades, something for everyone, this was my first impressions upon unlocking my HEAT. They don't suck, they just require a brain and some time to get to grips with from my experience.
Khelds Rock.
Shhh. My common sense is tingling. ~ Deadpool
I actually thought my Warshade was easy mode after level 32, and god mode after level 39.
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3. Stygian Circle.
[/ QUOTE ] The single greatest power in the game, period. A kitten is saved every time Stygian Circle is used(unless you don't like kittens, then well...).
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I'm glad someone else agrees. 
My only complaint with Kheldians is that Human-form Peacebringers could use a little work. I had to take Boxing just to come close to filling an attack chain. :/ Perhaps I'm spoiled because the character is an alternate version of an MA/Regen Scrapper.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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3. Stygian Circle.
[/ QUOTE ] The single greatest power in the game, period. A kitten is saved every time Stygian Circle is used(unless you don't like kittens, then well...).
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I'm actually torn between that power, and another, as the Greatest Power Ever. Eclipse. I love Stygian Return. I'll use it when I find myself with full HP and End, just because I'm kicking the enemy while they're down. But still, Eclipse just makes me feel so... Awesome. It is, sadly, my own personal Awesome Button.
The changes I would make, off the top of my head:
Improve the mez resistance granted by controllers/doms, at least in human form, or change this to a different bonus: perhaps conts/doms could add a minor "power boost" and increase secondary effects?
Why is recharge resistance granted by other epics? Making it something useful like a small recharge buff would be more on par with the damage/resistance buffs other ATs offer.
Personally as a Kheldian I avoid having Controllers, Doms, or other epics on the team with me. If I get alot of resistance, awesome, I'm tanking! If I get alot of damage, sweet, I'm blasting. The others... bleh.
Myself, I think Warshades are fine. I don't think Peacebringers are all there, but I also don't have diverse experience, or SO-bound experience, with them. In essence, I know my feelings about Peacebringers are a biased gut reaction.
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3. Stygian Circle.
[/ QUOTE ] The single greatest power in the game, period. A kitten is saved every time Stygian Circle is used(unless you don't like kittens, then well...).
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I'm actually torn between that power, and another, as the Greatest Power Ever. Eclipse. I love Stygian Return. I'll use it when I find myself with full HP and End, just because I'm kicking the enemy while they're down. But still, Eclipse just makes me feel so... Awesome. It is, sadly, my own personal Awesome Button.
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Eclipse also gains you Endurance, don't forget. 
I'll second the statement that Warshades are easy mode after level 30 or so. Grav Emanate a spawn, kill them safely with Nova, ad nauseum. Course, there's plenty of other fun ways to engage any type of spawn - moreso, I think, than any other AT has.
Endurance problems with a Warshade, makes me scratch my head. Although I haven't played a PB to higher levels, I don't hear cries that they should be given endurance help.
After 500+ hours on my Warshade, I wouldn't even consider adding some endurance drain to the attacks. Faster form changes though, has got to be up very high on the list of changes that would help the AT.
I can certainly say that with Nova form, conserve energy and the occasional light form my PB tends not to have any end issues either..
The only thing i'd love is some mez resistance in human form (not to rival dwarf), but just enough to at least keep that first stun off..
50s:
White Valkyrie - BS/Regen Scrap
Fear of Silence - Ninja/Dark MM
Corporate Zombie - Necro/Poison MM
Ardent Cataclysm - Stone/Fire Tank
Angelic Heart - Peacebringer
Maelstrom - Elec/Elec Brute
Novastar - Energy/Fire Blaster
My friends and I began this discussion after we finally got our level fifty heroes and the massive disappointment that were Kheldians. We became lost in the dual, tri or single potential play forms that you had to needlessly toil with, we were sad with tremendous amount of endurance drain. So we decided to come up with a few ideas to make Kheldians suck less. Unfortunately, We've only come up with one.
1. PeaceBringer/Warshade attacks draining endurance from their foes would be very ideal.
Any ideas that could be added to the list would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to state that this is discussion on how to make Kheldian archtypes better, not on how greatly Kheldians suck.