Huntsman gets stealth and surveillance, Crabs get everything else.
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Huntsman gets stealth and surveillance, Crabs get everything else.
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except buttcapes
An no offense, Ragnar, but rarely do threads like this do well in the SoA forums.
I'mma say I prefer Crabspiders over Huntsmen and that's it.
hrmm...Ok, so, which is better support for a good team? I am guessing a Crab because of all the team toggles right?
And yes, I know. Just trying to make my mind up since I like both the Huntsman and the Crab, but my main on that is a Bane. hrmm...Maybe I will just keep it the way it is and just make a seperate crab...Sounds like a plan...Thanks guys
I hate all this terrorist business. I used to love the days when you could look at an unattended bag on a train or bus and think to yourself.... I'm going to take that.
I don't have an SoA yet, I don't even have access to them so I can't offer any advice on the powers. But my plan when I do get a 50 villain is to make one character a Hunstman with one build and a Bane with the other, and make a separate Crab. Mostly because of the backpack bug.
Then I'm also going to make another character and do a dual build Fortunata and Widow. Of course eventually if I stick around long enough I'll likely make multiples of all of them, but for now that's the plan.
I'm very much looking forward to getting access to these. I have access to Khelds now, but they just don't interest me for some reason.
By and large the Crab build brings better survivability than the Bane/Huntsman (def, significant resists, a self heal, and mez protection that rivals a Tank's) and much better AoE damage. Staying purely in-set for a crab you've only got two ranged ST attacks (channelgun, longfang) but three ranged AoE attacks (frag grenade, venom nade, suppression) and a pseudo nuke (omega manuever). Crabs also have the advantage of a second pet summon, and the spiderlings are pretty straightforward to perma, even if they're nowhere near as nasty and dangerous as the Disruptors.
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hrmm...Ok, so, which is better support for a good team? I am guessing a Crab because of all the team toggles right?
And yes, I know. Just trying to make my mind up since I like both the Huntsman and the Crab, but my main on that is a Bane. hrmm...Maybe I will just keep it the way it is and just make a seperate crab...Sounds like a plan...Thanks guys
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A good Huntsman is an absolute boon to a team. Huntsman can take more leadership toggles than a Crab without sacrificing any critical powers. Crab builds get very tight, while Wolf builds have a lot of breathing room. Talen is only half right. It's Surveillance and Build Up that are the key advantages in terms of grabbing Bane powers. Cloaking Device is only decent if you have melee attacks for Stealth Strike (and the gun melee will do it), but when you're an AOE monster, I fail to see the point of doing that in the first place.
There are a lot of .. well I'm not sure I would say exaggerations.. but possibly unintentionally misleading statements... in this thread, which I'm going to clear up.
First, Huntsman AOE vs. Crab AOE. Crab AOE is better, hands down, but Huntsman AOE is not in any way weak. Crab AOE is way ahead of Huntsman AOE on paper, but in practice, it isn't that far ahead. Either one of them look in the general direction of a spawn and stuff dies. A lot of stuff dies. The Crab is going to be a bit faster at it, and has more leeway with damage type and arc radius, but the Huntsman isn't going to have any issues either.
Huntsman, because of their build flexibility, can easily stack up two Assault and two Maneuvers. Teams love this.
Crab survivability is better, but Huntsman are not squishy. The Bane armor gives +20% HP, and 2x Maneuvers + CT
efensive will leave you relatively untouched at range.
Huntsman get Build Up. Ignore the redraw, it's insignificant compared to the advantages it brings. Build Up is Build Up is build Up and it is spectacular. Add it on top of +30% Damage from double Assault and whatever set bonuses you have, and things get pretty ugly (for your enemies).
Huntsman have better single target debuffing due to Surveillance. Throw in an Achilles and you're really in business. This is great for large teams who are fighting AVs or EBs (such as ITF or probably all kinds of MA arcs), as you can dramatically decrease the damage resistance of a single enemy. This isn't something to laugh at.
Ultimately, it comes down to more than a matter of damage or survival. The Crab has both of those over the Huntsman to one degree or another, but this doesn't mean the Huntsman does crap damage, or that the Huntsman is flimsy in a fight.
When I compare the two, I think of Crabs more like Blasters and Huntsman (built how I build them anyways) more like Corruptors. They both fill their role differently, but they're both very effective. 
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I'm only ladylike when compared to my sister.
Agreed with Aisynia.
Crabs do slightly better damage, and can fit in a good bit of team/self buffs.
Huntsmen do great-but-not-quite-as-much-as-a-Crab AOE damage, but can become team buff monsters very easily. Build-Up>Venom Grenade>Heavy Burst>Frag Grenade can drop groups of orange minions without IOs.
Hover Crabs are almost miniature gods. Self contained and you don't really need to worry about who or what else is on the team.
On the other hand double assault and double maneuvers on a huntsman is really nice too. Toss in a hover again, and ... you lose a small amount of personal defense and offense (compared to the crab) in order to boost your entire teams defense and offense. On a team of 8, this can easily be more of an advantage than disadvantage.
"I am the Star" vs "We are the Stars."
I have a huntsman and I used Aisynia's guide to make it. I used to have a crab, but respeced out of it. IMO, It is superior to a crab. Crabs have good damage and better resistance, but they are also very tight on powers and slots. Huntsman (as mentioned before) can stack up double leadership. I personally branched off and also took a patron for an extra pet, but I still have double Manuevers (which is a 20% defense boost to you and your team!).
Secondly, Huntsman have great debuffs. Asiynia's guide mentions that Huntsman are like mini rads, and I agree with her. If you follow the right chain, you can definately debuff a mob in their speed, defense, resistance and even to hit.
My chain is this. Web gernade-Venom Gernade-Build up- Heavy Burst- Frag-Dark Obliteration
Usually nothing survives but maybe some bosses and EBs. Then i can finish them off with my single target attacks.
Overall, Linea Alba said it best. If you wanna solo and make yourself awesome, then go crab. If you want to make your team awesome and be awesome at AOE too, go Huntsman
I hear that Venom Grenade debuffs are applied to the damage if the attack itself, so you might wanna use BU before Venom grenade. Unless of course there is not enough time to use Dark Oblit.
I am a little bit confused.
When you guys say "Huntsman", do you take any power from Crab/Bane at all?
I don't understand why Huntsman is a better "buff" bot. Your Crab/Bane can take the same # of leaderships if he wants??
So, your Huntsman sacrifices resistance shield/serum or Bane's defense to get one more Maneuver?? Is that really an advantage?
I mean what Huntsman has is aoe immb which seems like an inferior version to patron's immb aoe?
Edit: Ok, Wide Area Web Grenade could be a bit better in primary with better debuff but the recharge is longer too. So Huntsman with WAWG > Crab/Bane??? I find this hard to believe. Your Huntsman still lacks shield/defense. I mean if you are talking about stacking leaderships with other VEATs, then every VEAT can do it, not just Huntsman.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I also thought the Huntsman WAWG was inferior to Web Envelope, but upon closer inspection, WAWG has superior -speed and -rech: 50% vs 20% in WE.
I'm also curious what a Crab could achieve if he drops Serum, Fortification and what not for more Leadership toggles.
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I also thought the Huntsman WAWG was inferior to Web Envelope, but upon closer inspection, WAWG has superior -speed and -rech: 50% vs 20% in WE.
I'm also curious what a Crab could achieve if he drops Serum, Fortification and what not for more Leadership toggles.
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Debt badges, mostly.
aisyna's first paragraph more or less states that Crabs can't take additional pool maneuvers because of critical powers like Fortification, Serum, Suppression, Spiderlings, or Omega Maneuver.
Well, that's not true. Crabs can take additional pool leaderships at the cost of a few of these powers. What really happens is that they choose not to select these powers. Why do they choose not to? Because powers like Serum or Suppression or Spiderlings are better power choices.
Crabs are blasters because they do better aoe damage? "Huntsman" are corruptors because they have no choice but to load up on leadership powers to be even kind of useful?
Crabs are blasterminds, because they can deal excellent aoe damage while being able to survive from substantial layered defenses without needing to load up powerpools to compensate.
What can "Huntsmen" get above and beyond Crabs definitively? One single target debuff on a 45 second timer, 7.5% res to psy from Bane armor, an HP boost that grants them Blaster health, and better melee single target damage.
The "Huntsmen" is an RP charade that's allowed to persist because some players have attached their heart and soul to superficial traits of ATs / powersets and cannot accept that a cool looking costume or nice "thwacky" maces are entirely independent of performance.
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aisyna's first paragraph more or less states that Crabs can't take additional pool maneuvers because of critical powers like Fortification, Serum, Suppression, Spiderlings, or Omega Maneuver.
Well, that's not true. Crabs can take additional pool leaderships at the cost of a few of these powers. What really happens is that they choose not to select these powers. Why do they choose not to? Because powers like Serum or Suppression or Spiderlings are better power choices.
Crabs are blasters because they do better aoe damage? "Huntsman" are corruptors because they have no choice but to load up on leadership powers to be even kind of useful?
Crabs are blasterminds, because they can deal excellent aoe damage while being able to survive from substantial layered defenses without needing to load up powerpools to compensate.
What can "Huntsmen" get above and beyond Crabs definitively? One single target debuff on a 45 second timer, 7.5% res to psy from Bane armor, an HP boost that grants them Blaster health, and better melee single target damage.
The "Huntsmen" is an RP charade that's allowed to persist because some players have attached their heart and soul to superficial traits of ATs / powersets and cannot accept that a cool looking costume or nice "thwacky" maces are entirely independent of performance.
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I guess you are of the mind that all Spiders should go crab then and forget the Bane branch exists then?
You know what's hilarious? Aside from your contemptuous attitude, you just echoed everything Aisynia said.
Nobody is disputing that crabs have better damage and survivability than huntsmen. The idea of the huntsman is to have *good enough* damage and survivability while bringing team-friendly buff and debuff powers. They don't have personal survivability and killspeed powers like serum or suppression, instead they bring team survivability and killspeed powers like surveillance, extra assault, and extra maneuvers (which despite your dismissive attitude, do have noticeable effects). Your crab will dish out more personal damage. On a large team, though, I'd bet that the extra 15% from the second assault, plus surveillance's contribution on bosses, will outweigh the difference in personal damage. Similarly, your crab will personally be tougher. On a large team, though, how much additional damage will the extra maneuvers allow the team as a whole to take? It's probably at least comparable.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
So a Huntsman truly only shines when there's so many team mates that it's contributions are ambiguous at best and rely almost entirely on the merits of Defender leadership powers.
Even if Crabs couldn't take the same exact power pools that make Huntsmen "better buffers," the additional 15% dmg buff is nice, the additional 3.5% def all is slightly better than Combat Jumping, and the additional 10% tohit is completely superfluous in light of TT:L and teammates actually slotting for Acc.
If you think these numbers are worth dropping your ability to withstand damage by about half (put the powers into Arcana's melee defense spreadsheet if you do not believe me), giving up the team mitigation of Omega Maneuver and easily perma-ed spiderlings, AND the additional damage of quicker aoes as well as Suppression, then you are kidding yourself.
Even if we entertain the inaccurate statement "Crabs cannot take leadership powers," the argument of Huntsmen being better in any way falls short.
If my previous post echoes Aisynia's post, it's because her statements boil down to a sugar-coated "Huntsmen have nothing better to take than the leadership power pools" and this makes them special. Well, it does make them unique, but unique isn't a gameplay mechanic.
Correct: a Huntsman or defender truly only shines when there's so many team mates that it's contributions are ambiguous at best and rely almost entirely on the merits of Defender Like force multiplication powers.
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Correct: a Huntsman or defender truly only shines when there's so many team mates that it's contributions are ambiguous at best and rely almost entirely on the merits of Defender Like force multiplication powers.
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Tell this to Rad/Sonics that were soloing GMs before IOs without temp powers.
I'll admit that Emps, FFs, and perhaps TA Fenders fit your accusation of shining only on teams. But please, do not even joke about bringing Rads, DMs, Kins, Cold Doms, Sonics, and Stormies down into the same kiddie league ballpark Huntsmen are in.
And remember Linea, this is still following the inaccurate belief that Huntsmen are better for having nothing more than lots of room for 3.5% def all and 15% dmg buff. Even if we humor the argument that this is an "advantage" over Crabs, it's infinitesimal compared to what is traded purely for costumes and roleplay purposes.
Permaing spiderlings requires about 55% global recharge. If you think that qualifies as 'easily perma'd', especially with today's market, I don't think you live in the same world as the rest of us. And, if you'll notice, I'm not suggesting that you take a second copy of tactics (and neither is Aisynia if you read her guide) - it *is* redundant.
I'm not sure how the contributions of an extra assault is 'ambiguous' - 15% extra damage is 15% extra damage is 15% extra damage (and for that matter, 5.5% extra defense is hardly ambiguous either). Sure, it's not something you can point to during a fight and say 'there - that's what I'm doing' like you can for omega maneuver, but the contribution is still there. Just because you understand the benefit through math rather than your eyes doesn't make it ambiguous.
It does rely on a 'defender style leadership power', sure, but what is wrong with that? Given how absurdly powerful stacking buffs/debuffs has been proven to be over the lifetime of this game, I'd think that was a complement - it seems to have been purged, but the link in Linea's sig refers to a post by Castle where he says basically that. That's why Aisynia is likening Huntsmen to corruptors - they make their contribution more through buffs and debuffs than a crab does.
And the argument is not 'crabs cannot take leadership powers', it is 'crabs cannot take leadership powers without sacrificing some of the benefits that you'd go crab for in the first place'. There's a difference.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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I'm not sure how the contributions of an extra assault is 'ambiguous' - 15% extra damage is 15% extra damage is 15% extra damage (and for that matter, 5.5% extra defense is hardly ambiguous either). Sure, it's not something you can point to during a fight and say 'there - that's what I'm doing' like you can for omega maneuver
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Surely it couldn't possibly due to a genuine lack of merit.
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It does rely on a 'defender style leadership power', sure, but what is wrong with that? Given how absurdly powerful stacking buffs/debuffs has been proven to be over the lifetime of this game, I'd think that was a complement - it seems to have been purged, but the link in Linea's sig refers to a post by Castle where he says basically that.
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Apparently, Huntsmen get the benefit of the doubt here for stacking buffs/debuffs but Crabs don't. Can't Crab's stack their buffs/debuffs as well their superior pets and aoes and get even more damage? And I'm sure Castle's quote didn't mean stacking leaderships are effective to the exclusion of primaries and secondaries which is virtually what Huntsmen are doing.
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And the argument is not 'crabs cannot take leadership powers', it is 'crabs cannot take leadership powers without sacrificing some of the benefits that you'd go crab for in the first place'. There's a difference.
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No, the argument minus euphemisms is that Huntsmen are better because they have nothing more important to take than the leadership pool. Which ignores that Crabs can take the same exact leadership pool powers with the same exact values AND that the buffs aren't spectacular to begin with.
I'm not seeing anyone addressing the point (regarless of how rudely or not it is made) that Crabs have the choice to drop Fortitude and Serum for Assault and Maneuvers.
Once that is factored in, the only significant extra contribution a Huntsman brings is Surveillance.
Nice job lopping off the last line of my first paragraph, which contains the *reason* for what I was saying. And, yes, if you think that only the obvious stuff you can point to counts, you're wrong. There's no nicer way to put it. There is more to the world than what is obvious to your two eyes.
And the *only* thing we have been referring to in regards to buff/debuff stacking are the ones that crabs, in general, don't have in comparison to huntsmen. The huntsman is stacking *more* buffs and debuffs than the crab, which partially counterbalances his lower direct damage. The crab can't stack the same buffs/debuffs as the huntsman because they don't *have* the same amount of buffs and debuffs that the huntsman does. Even counting that, crabs still do more personal damage, yes. But they aren't providing the same benefit to the team, which more or less cancels it out.
And misrepresent the argument all you like, it's not going to make your version true. First off, I just went back and looked over the whole thread, and I can find exactly one person who actually claimed that huntsmen are 'better'; sudz, on the first page, who hasn't been back. Alysnia and I are both stating that huntsmen and crabs are roughly equivalent, with different focuses. So, first off, you can stop harping on about how we're all arguing that huntsmen are 'better'.
And second, I'd suggest you go back and actually *read* the last paragraph of my previous post, rather than quoting it and then saying the exact same thing you said before. I am saying that, *IF* you have a crab go back and take the extra leadership powers, you will then lose some of the other shinies that make the crab different - if you drop, say, serum and fortification as Devian mentions, you sacrifice the greater personal toughness that is one of the selling points of the crab. You can't just take the exact same powers with the same values and gain the same benefits because you'd have to sacrifice in your abilities elsewhere. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have all the team benefits of the huntsman and at the same time all the solo and personal benefits of the crab. And the team benefits of the huntsman *do* exist. They don't make him unambiguously 'better', but they are there.
All we are saying in regards to this is that, while the powers available to a huntsman from just primaries and secondaries aren't as comprehensive, he has the chance to make up for it by taking pool powers which the crab doesn't have room for. And despite your apparent distaste for them, there is nothing wrong with taking pool powers or the contributions they can bring.
And, of course, that's totally ignoring the things a huntsman can get which a crab doesn't have access to at *all* - namely, surveillance and build up. Crabs have aim, which is mostly as good, but build up is still better. And crabs have no equivalent to surveillance at all - a crab can't single-handedly add an extra 20% to the entire team's DPS against a single tough target.
Oh, and what ever happened to this?
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An no offense, Ragnar, but rarely do threads like this do well in the SoA forums.
I'mma say I prefer Crabspiders over Huntsmen and that's it.
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Yes, we get it. You like crabspiders. Any particular reason you decided to bless us with your reasoning after all?
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Wow Ysosrs you must be a bunch of professional snot slinger because you do it with such panache! Who the heck cares! Huntsmen aren't a gimped build in terms of what they can bring to a team. I am a number cruncher at heart but sometimes I sacrifice raw numbers for GASP! WOW! OHH! FUUUUNNNN!! Why don't you spend some time leveling more toons or point that sharp perception at yourself rather than trying to degrade another person's idea of fun and a good time.
What are the pro's and con's between the Crab and the Huntsman? I am trying to decide between the two for my other build...My Main build is a Bane, and I absolutely love him. But, depending on what TF I am doing or what type of team I am on, decides on which build (Bane/Huntsman(Maybe Crab)) that I would use.
Are the Crab powers better than the Wolf powers?
Since the Huntsman uses mostly Bane armor types, does that make it more livable than the Crab?
Against an AV, on a team, which would fare better; Crab or Huntsman?
I am currently in RWZ lvling up, using my Huntsman. Alot of my attacks are getting deflected...Would that be the same with the Crab? I dont have any procs for damage, I probably will never be able to afford to buy Dam Procs, as I am attempting to get full sets for my Bane and which ever my secondary build will be (Crab or Huntsman).
I hate all this terrorist business. I used to love the days when you could look at an unattended bag on a train or bus and think to yourself.... I'm going to take that.